APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

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APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by APOD Robot » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:06 am

Image Messier 5

Explanation: "Beautiful Nebula discovered between the Balance [Libra] & the Serpent [Serpens] ..." begins the description of the 5th entry in 18th century astronomer Charles Messier's famous catalog of nebulae and star clusters. Though it appeared to Messier to be fuzzy and round and without stars, Messier 5 (M5) is now known to be a globular star cluster, 100,000 stars or more, bound by gravity and packed into a region around 165 light-years in diameter. It lies some 25,000 light-years away. Roaming the halo of our galaxy, globular star clusters are ancient members of the Milky Way. M5 is one of the oldest globulars, its stars estimated to be nearly 13 billion years old. The beautiful star cluster is a popular target for earthbound telescopes. Even close to its dense core, the cluster's red and blue giant stars stand out with yellowish and blue hues in this sharp color image.

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Boomer12k » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:08 am

Somebody spilled more sugar on the table...

Have not gotten a good enough picture of it yet with my scope... :(

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Ann » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:59 am

This is yet another brilliant image by Adam Block.

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PhilT

Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by PhilT » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:22 am

Just a thought - 100k stars in 165 Light Years seems crowded at first - but a 165 LY diameter sphere has a volume of 2,352,070 cubic LY, Divide that by 100k and you get a sphere of roughly 3.5 LY diameter (if I calculated correctly :D ).

Our nearest star is about 4 LY away - so maybe it isn't so crowded up there after all ! And more to the point - fairly stable (after 13 Billion years).

Anyone got any idea of the minimum distance between 2 stars in M5 ? Is there still any chance of catastrophic interaction ongoing ?

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Ann » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:58 am

PhilT wrote:Just a thought - 100k stars in 165 Light Years seems crowded at first - but a 165 LY diameter sphere has a volume of 2,352,070 cubic LY, Divide that by 100k and you get a sphere of roughly 3.5 LY diameter (if I calculated correctly :D ).

Our nearest star is about 4 LY away - so maybe it isn't so crowded up there after all ! And more to the point - fairly stable (after 13 Billion years).

Anyone got any idea of the minimum distance between 2 stars in M5 ? Is there still any chance of catastrophic interaction ongoing ?
I believe, although I'm not sure, that the average distance between stars in most globular clusters is a few light weeks or possibly a few light months. That is more crowded than the Solar neighborhood, certainly.
B.J. Mochejska, J. Kaluzny (CAMK), 1m Swope Telescope
As for catastrophic interaction, yes, that does happen in globular clusters and probably more often than in "average" parts of the galaxy.

Take a look at this color-magnitude diagram of the stars in globular cluster M55. You can see the "thick highway" of stars that are still on the main sequence in this cluster. They convert hydrogen to helium in their cores, just like the Sun.

The main sequence starts in the lower right corner and extends to the upper left. The farther we move up and to the left along the main sequence, the brighter, hotter and bluer (or more non-red) the stars become.

But suddenly the main sequence is "broken" and the stellar highway takes a turn to the right, where again the stars become redder in color. This is the "red giant branch", and the stars that are found here have used up the hydrogen in their cores and have turned into red giants.

But the main sequence doesn't come to a complete stop. There is an almost "ghostly" extension of it further to the left. Above this extension is a "blue arc", which is not of interest here. The stars we should focus on are found below the blue arc and above and to the left of the most leftward extension of the main sequence.

These are the so-called blue stragglers. Theoretically, they should not exist. They are too massive not to have used up the hydrogen in their cores. Like all the other stars of comparable mass in the globular cluster, they should have left the main sequence and turned into red giants at this point of their evolution. The best explanation for their existence is that they have gained mass through "close encounters" and interaction with other stars in the globular cluster.

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Ann » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:12 am

47 Tucanae (47 Tuc) is a globular cluster with a particularly dense core, where a lot of stellar interaction is taking place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/47_Tucanae wrote:
47 Tuc's dense core contains a number of exotic stars of scientific interest. Globular clusters efficiently sort stars by mass, with the most massive stars falling to the center.[8] 47 Tuc contains at least 21 blue stragglers near its core.[9] It also contains hundreds of X-ray sources, including stars with enhanced chromospheric activity due to their presence in binary star systems, cataclysmic variable stars containing white dwarfs accreting from companion stars, and low-mass X-ray binaries containing neutron stars that are not currently accreting, but can be observed by the X-rays emitted from the hot surface of the neutron star.[10] 47 Tuc has 23 known millisecond pulsars, the second largest population of pulsars in any globular cluster.[11] These pulsars are thought to be spun up by the accretion of material from binary companion stars, in a previous X-ray binary phase. The companion of one pulsar in 47 Tucanae, 47 Tuc W, seems to still be transferring mass towards the neutron star, indicating that this system is completing a transition from being an accreting low-mass X-ray binary to a millisecond pulsar.[12] X-ray emission has been individually detected from most millisecond pulsars in 47 Tuc with the Chandra X-ray Observatory, likely emission from the neutron star surface,[13] and gamma-ray emission has been detected with the Fermi Gamma-ray Space Telescope from its millisecond pulsar population (making 47 Tuc the first globular cluster to be detected in gamma-rays).
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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by brucebowker » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am

I would love to see an artist's conception of what it would be like on earth if it were in the middle of this cluster.

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by nstahl » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:29 pm

It is interesting imagining earth in a globular cluster. But I doubt a planet could stay in orbit around a star in that environment long enough for us to have evolved, due to all the other stars popping by. But that's just my intuition.

Ann thanks for your interesting contributions. I do wonder what's the process by which "Globular clusters efficiently sort stars by mass, with the most massive stars falling to the center." The reference ([8]) at that Wikipedia article on 47 Tucanae was not helpful.

Daily APODian

Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Daily APODian » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:37 pm

Ann wrote:
I believe, although I'm not sure, that the average distance between stars in most globular clusters is a few light weeks or possibly a few light months. That is more crowded than the Solar neighborhood, certainly.
B.J. Mochejska, J. Kaluzny (CAMK), 1m Swope Telescope
As for catastrophic interaction, yes, that does happen in globular clusters and probably more often than in "average" parts of the galaxy.

Take a look at this color-magnitude diagram of the stars in globular cluster M55. The farther we move up and to the left along the main sequence, the brighter, hotter and bluer (or more non-red) the stars become.



But the main sequence doesn't come to a complete stop. There is an almost "ghostly" extension of it further to the left. Above this extension is a "blue arc", which is not of interest here. The stars we should focus on are found below the blue arc and above and to the left of the most leftward extension of the main sequence.

These are the so-called blue stragglers. They are too massive not to have used up the hydrogen in their cores. Like all the other stars of comparable mass in the globular cluster, The best explanation for their existence is that they have gained mass through "close encounters" and interaction with other stars in the globular cluster.

Ann
Sure you've heard the question before, the stars in the blue arc, how are they possible in a globular cluster of that age? Since they're more massive and burn hotter why haven't they supernovaed long before now?

And the blue stragglers in M5 are clustered towards the core as in the Tuc example? Blue straggler core clustering is the rule in globulars?

Do the blue arc stars show signs of clustering?

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by neufer » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:23 pm

Ann wrote:
PhilT wrote:
Just a thought - 100k stars in 165 Light Years seems crowded at first - but a 165 LY diameter sphere has a volume of 2,352,070 cubic LY, Divide that by 100k and you get a sphere of roughly 3.5 LY diameter (if I calculated correctly :D ). Our nearest star is about 4 LY away - so maybe it isn't so crowded up there after all ! And more to the point - fairly stable (after 13 Billion years)
I believe, although I'm not sure, that the average distance between stars in most globular clusters is a few light weeks or possibly a few light months. That is more crowded than the Solar neighborhood, certainly.

47 Tucanae (47 Tuc) is a globular cluster with a particularly dense core, where a lot of stellar interaction is taking place.
One must distinguish between:
  • 1) the overall average density vs. the core density of globular cluster stars

    2) the average density of bright giant globular cluster stars vs. that of "run of the mill" dwarf stars in the disk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_cluster wrote:
<<Globular clusters are generally composed of hundreds of thousands of low-metal, old stars. The type of stars found in a globular cluster are similar to those in the bulge of a spiral galaxy but confined to a volume of only a few million cubic parsecs. They are free of gas and dust and it is presumed that all of the gas and dust was long ago turned into stars.

Globular clusters can contain a high density of stars; on average about 0.4 stars per cubic parsec (i.e., one bright giant globular cluster star every 4.4 light years), increasing to 100 or 1000 stars per cubic parsec (i.e., one bright giant globular cluster star every ~0.44 light years) in the core of the cluster. Several globular clusters (like M15) have extremely massive cores which may harbor black holes, although simulations suggest that a less massive black hole or central concentration of neutron stars or massive white dwarfs explain observations equally well.>>
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Psnarf » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:54 pm

Since this cluster is relatively close, only 25,000 light years away, what kind of red shift do you find in the 13 billion-year-old stars compared to stars 13 billion light-years distant? Is my feeble knowledge of such matters correct in assuming accellerating expansion is a function of distance, not time?

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by nstahl » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:13 pm

Psnarf wrote:Since this cluster is relatively close, only 25,000 light years away, what kind of red shift do you find in the 13 billion-year-old stars compared to stars 13 billion light-years distant? Is my feeble knowledge of such matters correct in assuming accellerating expansion is a function of distance, not time?
Your not so feeble knowledge is correct. The standard explanation involves the distance between objects as the controlling variable. Time gets involved because the farther away we look the farther back in time so, e.g. if we see an object a billion ly away clearly it's at least a billion years old now.

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by D. Campbell » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:23 pm

If giant stars are short lived, how can this cluster be 13 billion years old? I understand Red Giants as late life dying stars but Blue giants don't fit the age of the cluster as reported.

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:08 pm

Psnarf wrote:Since this cluster is relatively close, only 25,000 light years away, what kind of red shift do you find in the 13 billion-year-old stars compared to stars 13 billion light-years distant? Is my feeble knowledge of such matters correct in assuming accellerating expansion is a function of distance, not time?
There is no relativistic redshift present in the stars in this cluster, because there is no expansion of space between us and them. They show slight Doppler shifts, either towards red or blue, based on the overall motion of the cluster with respect to us, as well as their individual motions within the cluster.

A star 13 billion ly away has had its light stretched significantly between the time it was emitted and detected, so we see a lot of cosmological redshift- so much that it swamps out any Doppler shift caused by the motion of the star.
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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:24 pm

D. Campbell wrote:If giant stars are short lived, how can this cluster be 13 billion years old? I understand Red Giants as late life dying stars but Blue giants don't fit the age of the cluster as reported.
Stars around 8 solar masses, not quite large enough to produce core-collapse supernovas, eventually migrate off the red giant path and become blue giants. So there is no problem with an old cluster, having all its stars the same age, containing a population of blue giants.

To be clear, giant stars are not short lived, massive stars are. Fairly low mass stars evolve to the giant stage, billions of years after their formation.
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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by henrystar » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:12 pm

brucebowker wrote:I would love to see an artist's conception of what it would be like on earth if it were in the middle of this cluster.
There is a famous science fiction story -- Nightfall I think it was called -- planet where it was always daytime because of multiple star, except every 10,000 years it got dark...and civilization crumbled as people panicked. And they were in a globular cluster, so the night sky was filled with tens of thousands of stars.....Was this Asimov? Arthur C. Clarke? or who...

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by rstevenson » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:33 pm

There is a famous science fiction story ... Was this Asimov? Arthur C. Clarke? or who...
Nightfall, by Isaac Asimov.

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Ann » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:16 pm

Daily APODian wrote:
Sure you've heard the question before, the stars in the blue arc, how are they possible in a globular cluster of that age? Since they're more massive and burn hotter why haven't they supernovaed long before now?

And the blue stragglers in M5 are clustered towards the core as in the Tuc example? Blue straggler core clustering is the rule in globulars?
The stars in the "blue arc" are called blue horizontal stars, and they are not necessarily very massive. All stars that are at least moderately massive (like, say, the Sun) and are very metal-poor (meaning that they contain extremely small amounts of elements heavier than hydrogen and helium) will naturally pass through the "blue horizontal branch".
Here is how it works, the way I understand it. The metal-poor star that is moderately massive (not massive enough to go supernova) will, after it has run out of hydrogen in its core, expand to become a red giant. The star has now left the main sequence and is on the red giant branch. The reason why the red giant expands is because its core is contracting, now that there is no fusion taking place there. But there is a shell around the core where there is still hydrogen, and here hydrogen is being fused to helium. So during this process the core of the red giant shrinks while its outer layers expand.

But while the core is shrinking, its temperature is rising. Eventually it becomes hot enough to start fusing helium into oxygen and carbon. When this happens, the outer layers of the bloated red giant shrink quite dramatically. When the outer layers of the star move much closer to the now really hot core, the outer layers also get much hotter. The photospheres of of these stars now shine with a blue light. These stars are also brighter than they ever were during their main sequence days, in the same way as red giants are also brighter than they ever were during their main sequence days. However, the blue horizontal stars are fainter the bluer they are. That is because the bluest horizontal branch stars have shrunk more than other horizontal branch stars. They are, quite simply, smaller.

Eventually the blue horizontal branch stars become unstable. I think, although I'm not sure, that they turn on and off the helium fusion in their cores while at the same time they turn on and off hydrogen fusion in a shell around their cores. These stars begin expanding dramatically, turning red again. They are not on the "asymtotic giant branch". Here they will become brighter and redder than they ever were on the red giant branch. But here their lives will end - they will eventually "slough off" their outer layers and become planetary nebulae and white dwarfs.
But it is only the metal-poor stars that ever go through the blue horizontal branch phase. Our Sun, which is moderately metal-rich, will never become a blue horizontal branch star.

Here you can see the populations of two globular clusters which are not sufficiently metal-poor to have blue horizontal branches. They do have short horizontal branches, but their horizontal branches don't extend far enough to the left (to sufficiently high temperatures) for the stars which are located there to be blue.

Finally, are blue stragglers preferentially found near the cores of globular clusters? Yes, I think they are.

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by saturno2 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:20 pm

M 5 Globular stars Cluster
Distance 25,000 light-years
Diameter 165 light-years
I think that M5 is very density in the center and very bright. too

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by K1NS » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:10 am

I think Science Officer Ann is right, and some of the stars in M5 are mere light weeks apart.

This might mean that intelligent species on planets in M5 could have actual communications, and maybe even physical contact! If I were involved with SETI, I think I might aim my antennas at areas like M5. Maybe some of their radiation might leak out toward us.

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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:41 am

K1NS wrote:I think Science Officer Ann is right, and some of the stars in M5 are mere light weeks apart.

This might mean that intelligent species on planets in M5 could have actual communications, and maybe even physical contact! If I were involved with SETI, I think I might aim my antennas at areas like M5. Maybe some of their radiation might leak out toward us.
Except you wouldn't have intelligent species, unless they evolved on a planet without a star. Planetary systems in dense regions like that just aren't stable enough to exist more than a few hundred million years. Not enough time for life to form, at least not advanced life.
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Re: APOD: Messier 5 (2012 Aug 03)

Post by DavidLeodis » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:59 pm

The "this sharp color image" in the explanation is a link but (currently at least) it brings up the APOD of August 4 2012. I thought I would mention that so that the link can be corrected, as I assume it is meant to bring up information about the image in the APOD of August 3 2012.

Edit shortly after posting. I have now found that though the "this sharp color image" link in the explanation with the APOD of August 3 2012 brings up the APOD of August 4 2012 the same link in the explanation at the top of this thread does bring up information about the image in the APOD of August 3 2012 and not the APOD of August 4 2012. Very odd! :?

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