APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb 23)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb 23)

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Francisco Elias Duran » Sun May 16, 2010 1:29 pm

The missile may have caused fluctiación between atoms in the atmosphere by the pressure beneath him.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by bystander » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:58 am

The waves are probably a manifestation of a Prandtl–Glauert singularity as are Prandtl–Glauert condensation clouds. The so-called singularity occurs at transonic speeds, just before going supersonic, just like in the video.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by ems57fcva » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:05 am

Arie Melamed-Katz wrote:The waves appear before the vehicle goes supersonic. The engine plume or the engine itself sounds to me as a more reasonable cause.
I concur with this explanation. As I mentioned above, you can hear the engine sound go from being fairly consistent to being more like a "boom-boom-boom". I would guess that this comes from the plume instead of the engine. Or at least I hope that it is the plume. since if the cause is in the engine itself that could indicate a potentially dangerous instability.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Arie Melamed-Katz » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:19 pm

Little_SDO wrote:ULA's response in regards to the SDO's shock waves:

The final thought back here is that the effect we saw was due either to shockwaves from the vehicle as it went supersonic (approximately 82 seconds into flight), or varying densities or shockwaves in the engine plume. One of these phenomena could have interacted with moisture in the atmosphere to produce the effect.

A Japanese TV station reported on it yesterday, also discussing the engine plume as the source.

http://doga.nhk.or.jp/doga/viewvideo.js ... 298219.flv
The waves appear before the vehicle goes supersonic. The engine plume or the engine itself sounds to me as a more reasonable cause.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Little_SDO » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:37 pm

ULA's response in regards to the SDO's shock waves:

The final thought back here is that the effect we saw was due either to shockwaves from the vehicle as it went supersonic (approximately 82 seconds into flight), or varying densities or shockwaves in the engine plume. One of these phenomena could have interacted with moisture in the atmosphere to produce the effect.

A Japanese TV station reported on it yesterday, also discussing the engine plume as the source.

http://doga.nhk.or.jp/doga/viewvideo.js ... 298219.flv

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by DavidLeodis » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:05 pm

Arie Melamed-Katz wrote:
DavidLeodis wrote:I am wondering if there was a matching sundog to the left and, if so, what happened to that :?:
The sundog in the picture is the left one since the red color is always closest to the sun.
Thanks Arie. For some reason I assumed the rocket was rising between sundogs and that we only saw the one on the right (as we see it) with the other being offview to the left. I should have realised that if the rocket was where I thought then the Sun would have looked to have been where the rocket was when it was level with the sundog yet the Sun is not directly visible in the photo. :oops:

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by neufer » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:32 pm

Arie Melamed-Katz wrote:Regarding the sundog: it was probably destroyed by these long sound waves that changed the position and orientation of the ice crystals. After a few seconds the sundog appears again.
So "a few seconds" is the relaxation time for cirrus ice crystals to come back to equilibrium orientation after a turbulent disruption.

It is hard for me to believe that the ice crystals could respond coherently to infrasound with periods much shorter than a few seconds but I suppose that it is not impossible.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Arie Melamed-Katz » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:55 am

I wrote a bit about this rare and wonderful event in my Hebrew blog. Here are my thoughts:
The waves appear instantly through the whole cirrus cloud. It indicates that they were produced earlier in some continuous process and hit the cloud at the same time. A rough estimate of their speed indicates that they move with the speed of sound and the wavelength is a few tens of meters. In other words the frequency is indeed in the infrasound region. Assuming that their origin is in the engine, it can be interesting to figure out why the engine produced such vibrations?

The waves appear together with the Prandtl–Glauert condensation, which usually appears just before the rocket becomes supersonic.I don't think that we see a shockwave since the waves were generated before the rocket produced the supersonic shockwave. Since the speed of the rocket is transsonic at this stage the waves and the rocket get to the cloud approximately together.

Watching carefully, the waves can be seen also in NASA's Launch replay immediately after the rocket emerges above the cloud and it's shadow is seen. Besides the shadow a black fume is seen in this video. I wonder if it indicates some sort malfunction?

Regarding the sundog: it was probably destroyed by these long sound waves that changed the position and orientation of the ice crystals. After a few seconds the sundog appears again.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Arie Melamed-Katz » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:54 am

DavidLeodis wrote:I am wondering if there was a matching sundog to the left and, if so, what happened to that :?:
The sundog in the picture is the left one since the red color is always closest to the sun.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Lucra » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:26 am

By the time the sound waves should reach the left sundog (if there was one) they must have been heavely weakened. In such a way that the effect became most probably unvisible. At 10km high, an apparent distance of 44° between left and right sundog stands for about 8 km.
My geuss,
Luc

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by DavidLeodis » Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:26 pm

I am wondering if there was a matching sundog to the left and, if so, what happened to that :?:

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by MacRoos » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:37 pm

To create the visible waves in the cloud when the rocket passed, is in my mind due to the presence of a very thin layer of ice crystals through which the rocket passed.

To create a halo and sundogs, the ice crystal faces in the cloud must be (somewhat) aligned, otherwise the random orientations would look just be a "regular" cloud, with no halos and sundogs. Such alignment of crystals could only happen in relatively undisturbed air, otherwise the crystals would be mixed up into random orientations, and the sundog would disappear. Therefore, if you disturb the air, as you would with a passing rocket, the waves in the air in which the crystals are suspended, would change the alignment of the crystals, as seen in the pattern.

For such a disturbance to be visible, the layer of crystal must be very thin. This can be seen by the shadow of the rocket visible in the video - it can only appear that way if the cloud "canvas" on which the shadow is "painted" is thin. If the cloud/crystal layer was thick, it would not cast such a distinct shadow.

As the layer is thin, it is possible to see the "waves" in the layer. These disturbances happen in all rocket flight, but the presence of such a thin cloud of ice crystals must be quite rare - therefore not seen often.

Therefore the pattern was created by a thin layer of ice crystals, undisturbed air, through which a wave-creating vehicle passed. Fantastic.

APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb 23)

by The Code » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:47 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
mark swain wrote:The Earths atmospheric Globe is like a liquid.
It isn't a liquid, and it doesn't behave like one.
High pressure sonic boom in the low pressure upper atmosphere . Your going to see it, like a stone in the pond. With condensed water crystals and all. Rippled Vapor trail.
Yes, you may. Your original observation presented a possible explanation for what we see in these videos. But it has nothing to do with the atmosphere either being a liquid or acting like one. It's simply a question of the index of refraction changing with density. That's why the stars twinkle, and it's why we can sometimes see shock waves in the atmosphere.
So I was maybe right the first time.

I could not see any other way. other than, Water vapor .

Thanks Chris

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Chris Peterson » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:39 pm

mark swain wrote:The Earths atmospheric Globe is like a liquid.
It isn't a liquid, and it doesn't behave like one.
High pressure sonic boom in the low pressure upper atmosphere . Your going to see it, like a stone in the pond. With condensed water crystals and all. Rippled Vapor trail.
Yes, you may. Your original observation presented a possible explanation for what we see in these videos. But it has nothing to do with the atmosphere either being a liquid or acting like one. It's simply a question of the index of refraction changing with density. That's why the stars twinkle, and it's why we can sometimes see shock waves in the atmosphere.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by bystander » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:28 pm

I think you are confusing liquid, a phase of matter (gas, liquid, solid), with fluid, which is more of a property of all gases, but only some liquids. Most definitely, the atmosphere is not liquid. Although there may be some aerosols present, it is gaseous.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by The Code » Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:59 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:Under high enough pressure gas changes state, and becomes a liquid. But that is not happening here
I do not agree. Sorry
Chris Peterson wrote:(the pressures are nowhere near high enough).

The Earths atmospheric Globe is like a liquid. The higher you go, the more freely moving liquid. Snag is. The higher you go the lower the pressure. High pressure sonic boom in the low pressure upper atmosphere . Your going to see it, like a stone in the pond. With condensed water crystals and all. Rippled Vapor trail.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Chris Peterson » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:42 pm

mark swain wrote:Gas under pressure, Acts like a liquid.
Under high enough pressure gas changes state, and becomes a liquid. But that is not happening here (the pressures are nowhere near high enough).

Gases are fluids, as are most common liquids, so there is a certain overlap of behaviors. But I wouldn't say that the gases we see in these videos are behaving like liquids. Any material has a refractive index, and in the case of gases it varies with density. So with proper illumination, it is possible to see sound waves (or any density variations) traveling in a gas. That's how Schlieren and shadowgraph images are made (such as those posted earlier showing shockwaves).

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by neufer » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:32 pm

Lucra wrote:
mark swain wrote:Air pressure density ripples, Changing refraction. Slightly . ?
Pressure density ripples are rapidly changing pressure variations. As a consequence the gas (air) is periodically heating en cooling with no chance to exchange heat with the surrounding gas (an adiabatic process). Since temperature variations in a gas imply refraction variations the answer is yes.
Sound in air is primarily pressure fluctuations due to (roughly) equal parts density & temperature fluctuations.
It is primarily the sonic density fluctuations that produce index of refraction fluctuations.

For rocket launch noise the resulting refraction fluctuations are roughly equivalent
to those in typical "mirages" caused by surface temperature gradient induced density gradients:

http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 48#p116445

Sonic temperature fluctuations through clouds would happen too fast to modulate condensation/evaporation.

Sonic pressure fluctuations through clouds would probably be too weak to modulate
condensation/evaporation & happen too fast to coherently modulate ice particle orientation.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by The Code » Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:50 pm

Lucra wrote:
mark swain wrote:Air pressure density ripples, Changing refraction. Slightly . ?



Mark
Pressure density ripples are rapidly changing pressure variations. As a consequence the gas (air) is periodically heating en cooling with no chance to exchange heat with the surrounding gas (an adiabatic proces). Since temperature variations in a gas imply refraction variations the answer is yes.

Luc
Thanks Luc

Gas under pressure, Acts like a liquid. Of course it does. Excellent.

:D

Mark

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by ems57fcva » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:34 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
ems57fcva wrote:I advise poeple to not just look at Wailhound's link, but also to listen to it! You can hear a faint sound like a "pop-pop-pop" as the rocket is approaching the cloud layer. I'm sure that those pops are the shock waves being generated.
Keep in mind that at the distance of the rocket when the visual effect occurs, it is about 30 sound-seconds away. That is, any acoustic effects noted at the ground will occur about 30 seconds after any visual effects are seen.
That is true, but time is also needed for the wavefronts to propagate, especially the ones fartherest from the rocket. Also keep in mind that the if my belief that the shocks are created when the rocket was subsonic is correct, then those wavefronts must have moved upwards to reach the cloud layer. So it is not impossible that 30+ seconds elapsed from the creation of a shock (which I am sure we heard) to that shock reaching the cloud layer.

Obviously someone needs to do a detailed study, but the situation is not as simple as your refutation makes it out to be.

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by cyburbva » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:26 pm

Am I the only person to click on the penultimate mention of <sundog> in the text below the Feb 23 APOD photo? Don't miss it.
Someone has a great sense of humor.
I have a friend< Bob B, whom we called "Mr Kaboom" because of his expertise in underwater detonations. The vectors created by any disturbance in an atmosphere are not always predictable: is that correct. A bullet fired into a gelatinous substance varies according to velocity, exterior of the bullet (the missile) and the angle of the shooter.

Fascinating subject.

cyburbva

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Lucra » Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:19 pm

mark swain wrote:Air pressure density ripples, Changing refraction. Slightly . ?



Mark
Pressure density ripples are rapidly changing pressure variations. As a consequence the gas (air) is periodically heating en cooling with no chance to exchange heat with the surrounding gas (an adiabatic proces). Since temperature variations in a gas imply refraction variations the answer is yes.

Luc

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by DavidLeodis » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:47 pm

It's a terrific and fascinating photo. It does a look a bit like the shockwaves form a view down a tunnel with a parallax effect :!:

In the explanation the "sundog" in the sentence "a thin layer of ice crystals that were aligned to create the sundog" is a link to an image of a dog lying in the sunshine. The shadow of someone's arm looks like it could be holding a gun at the dog! I hope not! :shock:

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by bystander » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:40 am

If you listen closely, after the oohs and aahs and the laughter, you can hear the announcer say "The vehicle is now supersonic".

Re: APOD: Exceptional Rocket Waves Destroy Sun Dog (2010 Feb

by Chris Peterson » Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:23 am

ems57fcva wrote:I advise poeple to not just look at Wailhound's link, but also to listen to it! You can hear a faint sound like a "pop-pop-pop" as the rocket is approaching the cloud layer. I'm sure that those pops are the shock waves being generated.
Keep in mind that at the distance of the rocket when the visual effect occurs, it is about 30 sound-seconds away. That is, any acoustic effects noted at the ground will occur about 30 seconds after any visual effects are seen.

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