APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

Wired: Ancient Greek Computer Had Surprising Sun Tracker

by bystander » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:07 am

Ancient Greek Computer Had Surprising Sun Tracker
Wired Science | Lisa Grossman | 2011 Apr 01
The world’s oldest astronomical calculator is famous for having intricate gear systems centuries ahead of their time. But new work shows the Antikythera mechanism used pure geometry, as well as flashy gears to track celestial bodies’ motion through the heavens.

The device, a 2,000-year-old assemblage of gears and wheels that matched 19th century clocks in precision and complexity, was salvaged from a shipwreck off the Greek island of Antikythera in 1901.

Called the Antikythera mechanism, the machine gracefully kept track of the day of the year, the positions of the sun and the moon, and perhaps the other planets. It also predicted eclipses and kept track of upcoming Olympic games.

Most of the mechanism’s calculations were driven by a series of 37 interlocking dials, which may have been manipulated by a hand crank. The front of the mechanism had a clock-like face that denoted the calendar date in two concentric circles, one showing the signs of the Greek zodiac, and one carrying the Egyptian months of the year.

Three hands denoting the date and the position of the sun and the moon moved through the zodiac and the months as the gears turned.

“It’s a pretty elaborate piece of machinery,” said science historian James Evans of the University of Puget Sound in a presentation at the University of Washington in Seattle on March 31. “Nobody would ever have guessed that there could be something this complex in the second century [BC].”

Earlier research showed the device also accounted for a subtle weirdness in the motion of the moon. Because the moon’s orbit around the Earth is an ellipse, not a perfect circle, the moon seems to speed up and slow down over the course of a month. In 2006, Tony Freeth of Cardiff University and colleagues showed that a clever configuration of two overlapping gears, with the top gear laid off-center from the bottom gear, could give the moon’s marker its irregular speed.

Because of the Earth’s elliptical orbit around the sun, the sun makes a similarly variable trip across the sky, speeding up and slowing down over the course of the year. But the effect is much more subtle than for the moon.

“It’d be very hard with gears to mimic an effect so small,” Evans said. Also, if there were any extra gears related to the sun’s movement in the original mechanism, none emerged from the shipwreck.

Evans and colleagues suggested a simpler way to make the sun dial appear to change speed: Stretch the zodiac. If the spaces on the front wheel of the mechanism were of different widths, Evans reasoned, then the hand representing the sun would take longer to travel through the part of the year lumped under the zodiac sign of Taurus than through Libra.

The delay would make the sun look like it was moving slower at some times of year and faster at others, even though the gears turning the hand moved at a constant speed.

To check this idea, the researchers examined X-ray images of the Antikythera mechanism, parts of which were badly corroded. In a paper last year in the Journal for the History of Astronomy (which Evans co-edits), the team analyzed 69 degrees of the circle that was preserved well enough for the zodiac names and markings to be read. Since then, the team has extended the study to 88 degrees of the circle.

They found that the two circles representing the zodiac and the Egyptian calendar were divided differently, and in just the right way to account for the sun’s irregular speed.

“It made more sense to do it this way than to try to use an elaborate wheel upon wheel sort of thing, as they did for the lunar orbit,” Evans said.

At his talk in Seattle, Evans showed off a brass and wood reconstruction of the Antikythera mechanism (shown at top) that includes the stretched zodiac, as well as wheels depicting Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. The planetary gears are still controversial, he said, and not all Antikythera experts agree with his zodiac model, either. But Evans is confident.

“Our reconstruction of the way the solar anomaly worked, I think you can bet your retirement savings on it — or, 5 percent of them,” he said.

The mechanism would probably not have been a practical way to keep track of the passage of time, he added. Every time he moves his model for demonstrations, the gears shift around and it takes him an hour to get it working again. Rather, he said, the machine was intended to be a source of wonder.

“It was meant to be a statement, to impress, to instruct,” he said, “rather than being a day to day practical calculating device.”
Solar Anomaly and Planetary Displays in the Antikythera Mechanism - J Evans, CC Carman, AS Thorndike
  • Journal for the History of Astronomy 41(142) (Feb 2010) (pdf)

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by Beyond » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:23 am

YES, It's one of those scientific miracules :!:

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by NoelC » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:57 pm

You started with nothing, and still have most of it left.

-Noel

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by Beyond » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:49 pm

rstevenson wrote:Ah, but don't forget...

"Keep your eye upon the donut,
And not upon the hole."

Rob
I tried to find the hole one day, but could see nothing. So i ate the donut hopeing the hole would show up when the donut was gone. Nope, nada, zilch. No hole.
I've had frosted, glazed, bespeckled and plain, but trying to find a hole is such a pain! It's easy to find the space it should be in, but that darn hole eludes me agin and agin. But I've found a solution to my problem. I just by the holes separately by the box full. You only need to nibble around the edges a little and they plug right in. Now i can eat the w-hole thing. YUM-YUM :D

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by rstevenson » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:40 pm

Ah, but don't forget...

"Keep your eye upon the donut,
And not upon the hole."

Rob

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by Beyond » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:10 pm

rstevenson wrote:
beyond wrote:WHOA!, rob, you must do some serious studying between Toroids :!:
Not really. I first clicked the Quote button on Noel's post to see the URL of the image he posted. That gave me the word Pumapunku. I Googled that and had a read of the Wikipedia page I found. I already had the general idea (I was one of those kids who would rather read three books than play one game of baseball) and the material I found through Google confirmed my first impression, that the block wasn't all that old. Combine that with my own knowledge of crafts (40 years as a professional woodworker, with side glances into metal and stone work as well as archeology) and it all seems quite normal and unremarkable.

Also, it's well known that toroids twist time, so by following a rigorous regimen of toroidal consumption, I end up with more than the usual amount of time to devote to these sorts of pursuits.

Rob
Twisted Toroids may Twist time, but it would seem the circular Toroids can make you smarter to make the best use of all that Twisted time.
Hmm... If you put a Twisted Toroid through the hole of a circular Toroid and ate it, wouldn't that make you Twistedly smart :?:
And wouldn't one definition of Twistedly smart be -- INSANITY :?:
I think i have just discovered the world's biggest problem -- DONUTS :!: :!:

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:56 am

NoelC wrote:And Chris, I doubt very seriously whether you or any other human can actually fathom 65 million years of time passage.
Well, speaking as a geologist, I have a very good sense of what 65 million years means. I see nature around me in a context spanning nearly 2 billion years, with a resolution at times of only a few thousand years.

My opinion is that given the geographical and temporal range of fossils we've found, and the vast quantity of them, the likelihood that we could miss the remains of any technological predecessors in the last few hundred million years is very small. Yes, if they were very localized, it's possible. But I don't think it likely that an advanced technology would remain localized to one small part of the Earth.

There is nothing about the Antikythera mechanism that suggests another 1000 years was required for its development. Indeed, there would be nothing terribly surprising about finding such a device a few thousand years older than this one. The technology is simple, the knowledge behind it was well developed.

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by NoelC » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:44 am

rstevenson wrote:Careful... there are floating cranes capable of lifting over 14,000 tons, and a portable, drive-on-the-highway crane which can lift 1200 tons. The largest blocks at the Tiwanaku site are only about 131 metric tons each.
Sorry, I had shifted to another site, the ancient Incan city of Sacsahuamán near Cuzco, where placed blocks are estimated at 20,000 tons. The point is that thousands of years ago even 131 tons isn't exactly chopped liver, and no one can quite explain how they moved them. Or how they carved the stone in the image I showed above without modern metallurgy.

And Chris, I doubt very seriously whether you or any other human can actually fathom 65 million years of time passage. After the duration of one of our lifetimes (about a million times shorter than that) we simply have to use our imaginations. Biological things we saw when we were kids are gone. Stuff made of hard materials mere thousands of years ago is nearly gone (ever visited, say, ruins in England or Europe?). Finding fossilized bones from millions of years ago may be possible, but it seems to me we just haven't looked in enough places to say that it's likely we'd know about an advanced civilization - especially if it didn't cover the planet like the scourge that is us. Maybe after having reached a sufficient level of technology they just disintegrated everything out of existence. Or maybe it's just buried where we haven't looked yet.

Entire mountain ranges come and go in tens of millions of years.

It doesn't take much to imagine, in light of today's APOD of a device that shouldn't have been possible for another 1,000 years, that the commonly accepted view of history might have just a few holes in it.

-Noel

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:05 pm

NoelC wrote:So here's a complex machine from what, a few thousand years ago, barely recognizable.
It's a single artifact, and it's very recognizable as a machine. Sure, it took some clever reconstruction to really figure it out, but it's bronze, and was underwater!
What if 100,000 years ago there was a society that reached what we consider our "modern" level of sophistication. Would we even know they existed?
If by "modern" you mean "technological", I'd say absolutely.
What if 65 million years ago there were reptilians who had achieved what we call "modern" technology or beyond? Could not the Earth have swallowed virtually every bit of evidence of that by now?
Again, if we're talking about technology, I'd say we would be aware of it.
We do VERY occasionally find a few things that have survived millenia and are at best difficult to explain...
Difficult to explain because we don't understand context. But not difficult to recognize as the product of human invention, and not difficult to understand in terms of the technology involved.
To think we have scoured every (cubic) inch of this planet and know its entire history would be beyond arrogant.
It wouldn't be arrogant, it would simply be wrong. But we've sampled the planet very well, so the likelihood of missing a complete technological civilization seems extremely small.

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by rstevenson » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:39 pm

NoelC wrote:
rstevenson wrote:I'm not sure that photo illustrates your point Noel.
... If the photo doesn't light your fire, how about the perfect placement of blocks even the most powerful lifting machinery in the world today would have problems with...
Careful... there are floating cranes capable of lifting over 14,000 tons, and a portable, drive-on-the-highway crane which can lift 1200 tons. The largest blocks at the Tiwanaku site are only about 131 metric tons each.
NoelC wrote:... There's no reason to think people were any less smart thousands of years ago than they are today. A few probably found themselves with time on their hands...
Of course. But they need to eat, and that means that someone has to provide the labour to feed them or they won't get much done in their lifetime. And that means they have to give something back to the community that is valued. Not very many societies have been able to support inventors except in time of war -- including our own, perhaps. :mrgreen:

Rob

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by NoelC » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:51 pm

rstevenson wrote:I'm not sure that photo illustrates your point Noel.
Generally speaking, I don't think there's agreement on the age of the Puma Punku stuff. But the photo was just a general teaser.

If the photo doesn't light your fire, how about the perfect placement of blocks even the most powerful lifting machinery in the world today would have problems with...

I'm of the opinion time has wiped out more than we can possibly imagine. Perhaps one day we'll dig up something that will offer solid proof.

There's no reason to think people were any less smart thousands of years ago than they are today. A few probably found themselves with time on their hands...

-Noel

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:30 pm

beyond wrote:I wonder what else people of ancient times knew about things that maybe got lost and we don't even know about today??
Lots, I'm sure. But probably not much that we'd be too astounded by.

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by bystander » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:58 pm

owlice wrote:I want to know when the Lego kit will go on sale, because I want one (thanks to bystander for alerting me):
Actually, it was neufer, see the Asterisk link. There are a lot of articles on it, here.

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by owlice » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:04 pm

Geez, neufer, you scared me there for a second! I saw the code info flash up on the screen and thought for a sec I might have put a thread in the wrong forum (which I have done in the past...)!

I want to know when the Lego kit will go on sale, because I want one (thanks to bystander for alerting me):
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by neufer » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:57 pm

owlice wrote:
I am curious as to why Giorgio A. Tsoukalos, born in Lucerne, Switzerland, speaks English with an accent that sounds as though his first language were Chinese (or perhaps another far Asian language) rather than one of Switzerland's four official languages.
Giorgio is from far eastern Switzerland. (And the Conehead Family is from France. :wink: )

Please don't report Giorgio back to the home planet. :|
owlice wrote:IGMtransfer: Intergalactic Radiative Transfer Code
owlice wrote:
And the History channel just sank in credibility; I have sometimes lamented not getting it. No more!
History, n. [L.historia, Gr. 'istori`a history, information, inquiry, fr. 'istwr, "istwr, knowing, learned, from the root of to know; akin to E. wit.]

1. A learning or knowing by inquiry; the knowledge of facts and events, so obtained; hence, a formal statement of such information; a narrative; a description; a written record; as, the history of a patient's case.

2. A systematic, written account of events, particularly of those affecting a nation, institution, science, or art, and usually connected with a philosophical explanation of their causes; a true story, as distinguished from a romance; -- distinguished also from annals, which relate simply the facts and events of each year, in strict chronological order; from biography, which is the record of an individual's life; and from memoir, which is history composed from personal experience, observation, and memory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_channel wrote:
Image
<<History, formerly known as The History Channel, is an international satellite and cable TV channel that broadcasts programs regarding historical events and persons, as well as various occult, pseudoscientific, and paranormal phenomena—often with observations and explanations by noted historians, scholars, authors, esotericists, astrologers, and Biblical scholars—as well as reenactments and interviews with witnesses, and/or families of witnesses.

Subjects include military history, medieval history, the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries, modern engineering, historical biographies, metaphysical subjects and disaster scenarios; a number of these documentaries are narrated by Edward Herrmann. Many programs compare contemporary culture and technology with the past, while some programs have a more esoteric focus such as conspiracy theory, religious interpretation, UFO speculation, or reality television. The History Channel maintains a corporate initiative called Save Our History, dedicated to the preservation of history and historical sites and artifacts, similar to in spirit but not to be confused with the National Trust for Historic Preservation.>>
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you to find "conspiracy theories" on a SOH-called History Channel!

[c]A Midsummer Night's Dream > Act I, scene I

LYSANDER: Ay me! for aught that I could *EVER* read,
Could *EVER* hear by tale or *HISTORY* .[/c][/color]

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by owlice » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:30 pm

I am curious as to why Giorgio A. Tsoukalos, born in Lucerne, Switzerland, speaks English with an accent that sounds as though his first language were Chinese (or perhaps another far Asian language) rather than one of Switzerland's four official languages.

And the History channel just sank in credibility; I have sometimes lamented not getting it. No more!

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by neufer » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:12 pm

rstevenson wrote:
NoelC wrote:
We do VERY occasionally find a few things that have survived millenia and are at best difficult to explain...
I'm not sure that photo illustrates your point Noel. That Pumapunku block is from the Tiwanaku site in Bolivia and was cut between 1000 and 1500 years ago. While it is unusually precise for the time there is nothing about the techniques used that would have been impossible for masons back then. The only remarkable aspect of this sort of work prior to our modern mass-production techniques was that the society had to support the workers for long enough to perform that quality of work, and most societies couldn't afford to do that.
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by owlice » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:11 pm

Oh, I liked the show "Dinosaurs"! (Does this have to go into the "guilty pleasures" vault?)

Rob, wow! You always have more talents up your sleeve!! Is there anything aside from baseball you can't do? (And please pass the doughnuts; I need more time! Thanks!)

Oh, BMAONE23, did you have to provide a picture? I was hungry before; now I'm ravenous (an interesting state for an owl to be in)!

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by BMAONE23 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:09 pm

Tis true, Toroids twist time, thankfully though, time twists toroids too
http://artfulparent.typepad.com/artfulp ... s-yum.html

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by rstevenson » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:49 pm

beyond wrote:WHOA!, rob, you must do some serious studying between Toroids :!:
Not really. I first clicked the Quote button on Noel's post to see the URL of the image he posted. That gave me the word Pumapunku. I Googled that and had a read of the Wikipedia page I found. I already had the general idea (I was one of those kids who would rather read three books than play one game of baseball) and the material I found through Google confirmed my first impression, that the block wasn't all that old. Combine that with my own knowledge of crafts (40 years as a professional woodworker, with side glances into metal and stone work as well as archeology) and it all seems quite normal and unremarkable.

Also, it's well known that toroids twist time, so by following a rigorous regimen of toroidal consumption, I end up with more than the usual amount of time to devote to these sorts of pursuits.

Rob

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by Beyond » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:38 pm

WHOA!, rob, you must do some serious studying between Toroids :!:

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by rstevenson » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:21 pm

NoelC wrote:We do VERY occasionally find a few things that have survived millenia and are at best difficult to explain...

Image
I'm not sure that photo illustrates your point Noel. That Pumapunku block is from the Tiwanaku site in Bolivia and was cut between 1000 and 1500 years ago. While it is unusually precise for the time there is nothing about the techniques used that would have been impossible for masons back then. The only remarkable aspect of this sort of work prior to our modern mass-production techniques was that the society had to support the workers for long enough to perform that quality of work, and most societies couldn't afford to do that.

Rob

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by BMAONE23 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:19 pm

neufer wrote:
NoelC wrote:
So here's a complex machine from what, a few thousand years ago, barely recognizable.

What if 65 million years ago there were reptilians who had achieved what we call "modern" technology or beyond?
Could not the Earth have swallowed virtually every bit of evidence of that by now?
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Image
That image from Dinosaurs reminded me of this
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by neufer » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:12 pm

NoelC wrote:
So here's a complex machine from what, a few thousand years ago, barely recognizable.

What if 65 million years ago there were reptilians who had achieved what we call "modern" technology or beyond?
Could not the Earth have swallowed virtually every bit of evidence of that by now?
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Image

Re: APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

by neufer » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:49 pm

NoelC wrote:
So here's a complex machine from what, a few thousand years ago, barely recognizable.

What if 100,000 years ago there was a society that reached what we consider our "modern" level of sophistication.

Would we even know they existed?
Image
1941 AD Picasso painting of Dora Maar au Chat

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