APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

Post a reply


This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
Smilies
:D :) :ssmile: :( :o :shock: :? 8-) :lol2: :x :P :oops: :cry: :evil: :roll: :wink: :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :| :mrgreen:
View more smilies

BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[url] is ON
Smilies are ON

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by NoelC » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:56 pm

Woohoo! Finally!

And the first state in this one was South Dakota to boot! I got lucky placing that one.
WoohooFinally.jpg
-Noel

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by owlice » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:05 pm

Yeah, favorable placement order is key! (Well, for me, anyway!)

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by StarCuriousAero » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:04 pm

owlice wrote:
neufer wrote:I got Tennessee early in the game and put it too far west.
Oooo, don't you hate that?

I just played again, and got 98%, average error 1 mile, 268 seconds. It helped that my first four states were Michigan, Florida, Maryland, and West Virginia.

First try, 98%, avg error 3 miles, in 203 seconds. 8-) Only missed the first one, Kentucky, got pretty lucky after that with the placement order. If I knew how to insert an image I would do so, fun game!

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by neufer » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:59 pm

neufer wrote:
marlan wrote:
I thing you could never have these rocky shapes (the left center of the image) on another planet with such a distant sun, because they are typically a part of an ancient deep ocean floor. With such a distant sun no liquid water could have exist. Am I wrong ?
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110401.html
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00002999/ wrote:
The Planetary Society Blog
By Emily Lakdawalla Apr. 14, 2011
Are there more Titans than Earths in the Milky Way?

<<Here's a really neat speculative paper that poses the question: might there be many Titan-like planets and moons, with atmospheres and liquid methane rain, rivers, and lakes, across the galaxy? It's an important question if you think that liquid methane environments could support alien life, because it turns out that Titan-like planets might be more common than Earth-like planets.

The paper, by Ashley Gilliam and Chris McKay, considers what range of conditions would favor liquid methane on alien worlds. It begins by summarizing the conditions that currently prevail on Titan: a surface temperature of 94 Kelvin and an atmosphere composed mostly of nitrogen with 5% methane, with a small but important fraction of haze that is opaque to visible light but transparent to thermal infrared light. I knew this much about Titan already but hadn't thought through the implications: unlike Earth, Titan experiences an anti-greenhouse effect. Greenhouse gases on Earth are transparent to the Sun's primarily visible light, but opaque to the thermal infrared waves that are radiated up from the ground and oceans, so the Sun's energy gets trapped within the atmosphere, warming the planet. Titan's haze, by contrast, blocks incoming solar radiation but permits heat to escape, cooling it.

Where might Titan-like worlds exist? One tantalizing possibility is that there may be lots of them orbiting red dwarf stars. Red dwarfs are much more common than Sun-like stars. Less luminous than our Sun, they're poor candidates for systems that might support water-based life, because in order for a planet to be close enough to a red dwarf to be warm enough for liquid water, it would be close enough to be tidally locked, resulting in overheating of the star-facing hemisphere and overcooling of the star-shunning hemisphere. But they're great candidates to have planets that are as cool as Titan.

Red dwarfs put out more of their light as infrared than the Sun does. Since Titan's haze is transparent to infrared, that means more of a red dwarf's radiation would reach our theoretical Titan-ish planet's surface than it would if it orbited the Sun; Titans can be farther from red dwarfs than they would be from Suns and have the same surface temperature.

Things get more complicated, though, if you ask what effect the different radiation from a red dwarf would have on the production of atmospheric haze. If the dwarf has a normal to low amount of flare activity, they'd produce less ultraviolet radiation than our Sun, leading to more haze production. If the dwarf is an active one, though, there'd be more ultraviolet radiation, which would break up the haze molecules.

With a range of possible red dwarf star activities, they found that Titan-sized worlds could have Titan-like conditions at distances of 0.24 to 0.52 astronomical units from their stars. What if the world is big enough to have geothermal heat -- what if you have an Earth-sized world around these stars? It doesn't make much of a difference, it turns out; production of internal heat increases the distance that the planet could be from the star and still have Titan-like surface conditions by about 5%. With a large enough internal heat flux, there could even be Titan-like "rogue planets" wandering around the galaxy.

With a range of different amounts of haze production, they wound up with a pretty large "liquid methane habitable zone" around red dwarf stars -- 0.084 to 0.23 AU for less active stars, and 0.63 to 1.66 AU for a more active one like Gliese 581 -- a star that we already know supports several giant planets. There could easily be more Titan-like moons orbiting those planets.

The conclusion is that, since red dwarfs are so common, there may very well be many more Titans in the galaxy than there are Earths. Could life have originated in these conditions? Who knows? [But] if we ever do discover life that originated in methane rather than water, it would be pretty clear evidence that life began more than once.>>

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by rstevenson » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:31 pm

Beyond wrote:Game :?:
The USA link.

Rob

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by owlice » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:24 pm

neufer wrote:I got Tennessee early in the game and put it too far west.
Oooo, don't you hate that?

I just played again, and got 98%, average error 1 mile, 268 seconds. It helped that my first four states were Michigan, Florida, Maryland, and West Virginia.

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by neufer » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:52 pm

rstevenson wrote:
owlice wrote:13 miles off on average. How are the rest of you doing on the game? :ssmile:
92% - 30 miles off - 398 sec. Not bad for a Canajun, eh?
Oklahoma got me, but I hear Oklahoma gets a lot of people.
98% - 2 miles off - 421 sec.
I got Tennessee early in the game and put it too far west.

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by bystander » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:39 am

Beyond wrote:Game :?:
APOD Robot wrote:USA

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by neufer » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:09 am

Atul wrote:
To quote from today's APOD ... "has only recorded sunrises on Mars and Earth",
I am curious (and wonder too) if humans never witnessed sunrise on Lunar soil?
There were very good reasons for Apollo astronauts to have both Sun & Earth in view at all times when on the Moon.

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by Beyond » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:42 am

Game :?:

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by Atul » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:08 am

To quote from today's APOD ... "has only recorded sunrises on Mars and Earth", I am curious (and wonder too) if humans never witnessed sunrise on Lunar soil?

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by neufer » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:31 am

marlan wrote:
I thing you could never have these rocky shapes (the left center of the image) on another planet with such a distant sun, because they are typically a part of an ancient deep ocean floor. With such a distant sun no liquid water could have exist. Am I wrong ?
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110401.html

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by rstevenson » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:46 pm

owlice wrote:13 miles off on average. How are the rest of you doing on the game? :ssmile:
92% - 30 miles off - 398 sec.

Not bad for a Canajun, eh? Oklahoma got me, but I hear Oklahoma gets a lot of people.

Rob

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by florid_snow » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:35 pm

Of course it has been digitally processed. It also says so at the bottom of the page that owlice posted http://barn.zenfolio.com/p1068266116/h3dd79de#h15b98baa

I agree in spirit with the criticisms, they should just be clearly articulated. The prettiness of digital artwork is in the eye of the beholder. From a scientific perspective, I don't think the photo illustrates the points the description focuses on. The horizon has been messed with to look abnormally sharp, as if there is very little atmosphere in the line of sight. So I would suggest the orange sky glow should be reduced to illustrate a low amount of atmosphere, or at least incorporate a strong gradient so that it is reduced quickly towards the zenith. If a low amount of atmosphere was to be simulated, why are the distant mountains saturated with a type of greyish whiteness as if there is a lot of dust in the air? These effects don't go together, and to me such incongruities are visually distracting. The multiple undiscussed atmospheric effects are, at least to this observer, incompatible. I appreciate the author's imagination, and I'd love to see more of his images.

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by marlan » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:23 pm

I thing you could never have these rocky shapes (the left center of the image) on another planet with such a distant sun, because they are typically a part of an ancient deep ocean floor. With such a distant sun no liquid water could have exist. Am I wrong ?

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by NoelC » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:18 pm

The image has definitely been edited with an image editor. That's clear from the content.

But what's wrong with that? Digital artwork is shown here quite often, and this is a pretty one.

-Noel

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by brucet9 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:00 pm

bystander wrote:
Guest wrote:Of course parts of it were taken from a real image, but then they were cobbled together using mspaint. Look at the horizon, jesus, it looks terrible.
From the exif data:

Code: Select all

Camera:   Canon EOS Digital Rebel XSi
Lens:     20mm f/1.8
Exposure: Manual exposure, 1/13 sec, f/8, ISO 100
Flash:    Off, Did not fire
Date:     March 13, 2011   6:35:30AM
Why is it when people see an image they wish they were able to take but don't have the patience or technical expertise to take, their immediate comment is that it is faked or photo shopped?

It's a very nice image. My congratulations and thanks to Mr. Robert Arn.
Exif data doesn't mean the image has not been PhotoShopped. Those data stay with the image even after substantial alterations have been made.

This image has had the orange sky color altered; and not very skillfully at that; very nasty selection lines remain. The starburst has clearly also been added, such that if Venus was in the image, it has been obliterated by the starburst effect that was placed over it.

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by Guest » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:56 pm

biddie67 wrote:Interesting photo - but as majestic as this landscape is, I'm sure glad that the whole Earth isn't like this!
owlice wrote:(bb|[^b]{2})/ ~ Shakespeare
.... so in what language does the apparently multi-lingual Shakespeare speaketh? Do I dare ask what was said?
Elizabethan English, regex dialect!

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by biddie67 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:48 pm

RE: the game ....

Maybe somewhere on the bell curve with the average bear - I did see more red linings than I would like to admit to have seen.

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by Sam » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:55 pm

owlice wrote:13 miles off on average. How are the rest of you doing on the game? :ssmile:
USA

After a couple tries and a switch to a computer with a mouse instead of a touch pad, I got a 100% with an Avg Error of 0 miles in 239 seconds. Putting Arkansas or Kansas in the middle of a blank map is not easy!
Sam

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by owlice » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:23 pm

13 miles off on average. How are the rest of you doing on the game? :ssmile:

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by bystander » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:02 pm

Guest wrote:Of course parts of it were taken from a real image, but then they were cobbled together using mspaint. Look at the horizon, jesus, it looks terrible.
From the exif data:

Code: Select all

Camera:   Canon EOS Digital Rebel XSi
Lens:     20mm f/1.8
Exposure: Manual exposure, 1/13 sec, f/8, ISO 100
Flash:    Off, Did not fire
Date:     March 13, 2011   6:35:30AM
Why is it when people see an image they wish they were able to take but don't have the patience or technical expertise to take, their immediate comment is that it is faked or photo shopped?

It's a very nice image. My congratulations and thanks to Mr. Robert Arn.

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by neufer » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:52 pm

"What would a sunrise look like on another world?"

What would the people look like on that world?
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100519.html

Another world THAT far away from its sun probably wouldn't have canyons & arches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_the_Canyonlands_area wrote:
<<A vast sea covered the [Canyonlands] region in early Pennsylvanian time. A basin in the area called Paradox Basin subsided and a mountain range called the Uncompahgre Mountains was uplifted to the east. Great quantities of seawater were trapped in the subsiding basin and water became increasingly saline in the hot and dry climate. Thousands of feet of evaporites (anhydrite and gypsum then halite) started to build up in the Mid Pennsylvanian and storms occasionally washed sediment from the nearby mountains. Fresh seawater periodically refilled the basin but was never able to flush out the very salty water there (the new water in fact floated on top of the brine). These beds were later lithified to become the Paradox Formation, which in turn is part of the Hermosa Group. Compressed salt beds from the Paradox started to flow plastically later in the Pennsylvanian and probably continued to move from then until the end of the Jurassic.

The Paradox is up to 5000 feet thick in places and in the park is exposed at the bottom of Cataract Canyon as rock gypsum inter-bedded with black shale. Upward movement of the Paradox is also a possible theory for the creation of Upheaval Dome, although none of the Paradox is exposed on the dome, the predominant theory being a meteor crater.

Starting 70 million years ago and extending well into the Tertiary, a mountain-building event called the Laramide orogeny uplifted the Rocky Mountains and with it the Canyonlands region. Even though the strata were uplifted thousands of feet they were left at more-or-less the same horizontally.

When ground water seeped into the salt beds of the Paradox Formation it carried away the topmost and more soluble salts, leaving gypsum. This process was so pronounced in The Grabens that the overlying rock collapsed into voids left by escaping salt. Increased precipitation during the ice ages of the Pleistocene quickened the rate of canyon excavation. Canyon widening and deepening was especially rapid for the gorges of the Green and Colorado Rivers, which were in part fed by glacier melt from the Rocky Mountains. Alluvial fan creation landslides and sand dune migration were also accelerated in the Pleistocene. These processes continue to shape the Canyonlands landscape in the Holocene (the current epoch) but at a slower rate due to a significant increase in aridity.>>

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by biddie67 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:50 pm

Interesting photo - but as majestic as this landscape is, I'm sure glad that the whole Earth isn't like this!
owlice wrote:(bb|[^b]{2})/ ~ Shakespeare
.... so in what language does the apparently multi-lingual Shakespeare speaketh? Do I dare ask what was said?

Re: APOD: Otherworldly Planet Rise (2011 Apr 11)

by owlice » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:23 pm


Top