APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by neufer » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:57 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
NoelC wrote:
I like that this map is presented in % of C as opposed to trying to describe things in terms of distance.
The map is not really showing a percentage of c. That would be a velocity.

The map is showing redshift, which is a ratio of the apparent recessional velocity to c- a unitless value.
The map is showing redshift z, which (for these small values) is a ratio of the apparent recessional velocity to c- a unitless value.

[c]z/(1+z) = apparent recessional velocity to c[/c]

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by DavidLeodis » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:52 am

The explanation states "each dot represents a galaxy". There are a lot of dots, so lots of galaxies out there which is utterly mind boggling! Our Universe sure is a big place yet, as far as I understand, most of it is empty space!

I liked that the "evolved" link brought up an abstract of a paper of which Robert Nemiroff (one of the APOD editors) is a joint author. :)

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Mactavish » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:28 am

Gee guys... sorry I asked! After reading the subsequent posts, I feel like the guy who started a fight in a bar, then ducked out the back door to watch the action through the window. Every evening I open APOD and a beer. That's been a lot of wonderful astronomy pictures (and a lot of beers) over the past 15+ years. Keep `em coming!

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by alter-ego » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:20 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
NoelC wrote:...then is it really meaningful to think in terms of distance?
There is some kind of meaning there, but perhaps it isn't so useful. Cosmologists generally look at z, the redshift, as the fundamental unit, and it isn't usually felt necessary to convert this to a distance- except in press releases <g>.
Because Dark Energy is such a hot topic, I think it's worth adding that cosmologists do value distance indicators, as there are several, for testing different cosmology models. In particular, DE is a direct outcome of measuring space curvature by plotting essentially red-shift distance verses the luminosity distance for the Type 1a sn.

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Ann » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:53 am

I have to say something about Halton Arp. He used to be a very, very interesting astronomer, indeed a brilliant one. He asked questions that forced the astronomical society to come up with palusible answers, and that is always a very good thing.

However, Halton Arp was at his best when his questions were harder to answer. He says that redshift doesn't indicate distance. One of his famous examples was Stephan's Quintet. Earlier, when telescopes and observational techniques were much less advanced than today, it was much easier to think that all the galaxies in Stephan's Quintet are at the same physical distance:
Read about the picture here: http://panther-observatory.com/gallery/ ... Q_cass.htm

However, today Hubble and other telescopes have showed us that one of the galaxies in Stephan's Quintet, NGC 7320, is indeed much closer to us than the other ones. That is why its redshift is very different from the redshift of the other galaxies in Stephan's Quintet: precisely because NGC 7320 is so much closer to us.
NGC 7320 is at the bottom of this picture. Note how well resolved it is, precisely because it is nearby.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:08 am

Quigley wrote:So if we estimate the age of the universe, what was there before that and for how long? And before that? If we can only see the observable universe, what's outside of that? How big? And outside of that? Makes you think of the eternal...that there is eternity. How very small we are in so many ways.
Most physicists would argue that the idea of "before" the Universe has no meaning- or at least, the meaning is very different from what we intuit "before" to mean, for the simple reason that we presume that the beginning of the Universe also defines the beginning of time itself.

As far as how big the Universe is (that is, the entire thing, not just the observable Universe) the value is exquisitely sensitive to some poorly constrained initial conditions, so estimates range from just a few times larger than the observable Universe to infinite. Still working on that one <g>.

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Quigley » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:13 pm

So if we estimate the age of the universe, what was there before that and for how long? And before that? If we can only see the observable universe, what's outside of that? How big? And outside of that? Makes you think of the eternal...that there is eternity. How very small we are in so many ways.

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Sgt. Bilko » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:55 pm

Here's a link to an image of the crab nebula - To me, the structure represented by the images seem similar....

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0910/cr ... st_big.jpg

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Wolf kotenberg » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:21 pm

I decided while sitting in brazil sipping on a cold one, that no matter where I am, the universe is about 14 billion light years old.

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:49 pm

NoelC wrote:If the speed of light is changing (in my mind another way to think of the "expansion" of space-time - am I way off base?)...
I do think that's off base. The expansion has no connection with c, but only shifts the wavelength as the intervening space expands.
...then is it really meaningful to think in terms of distance?
There is some kind of meaning there, but perhaps it isn't so useful. Cosmologists generally look at z, the redshift, as the fundamental unit, and it isn't usually felt necessary to convert this to a distance- except in press releases <g>.
Not to mention that the distances are virtually unimaginable anyway.
Are they? I don't find it difficult at all to think in terms of billions of light years. These seem like natural and easy units for measuring the Universe. It's no different than thinking in fractions of nanometers for many atomic scale examples. I think the problem comes when people try to tie together units that are radically different, like directly comparing the distance to the supermarket to the distance across the observable Universe. But there's no need to do that.
I like that this map is presented in % of C as opposed to trying to describe things in terms of distance.
The map is not really showing a percentage of c. That would be a velocity. The map is showing redshift, which is a ratio of the apparent recessional velocity to c- a unitless value.

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by NoelC » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:22 pm

If the speed of light is changing (in my mind another way to think of the "expansion" of space-time - am I way off base?), then is it really meaningful to think in terms of distance? Not to mention that the distances are virtually unimaginable anyway. I like that this map is presented in % of C as opposed to trying to describe things in terms of distance.

-Noel

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by SevenHerons » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:12 pm

Wolf kotenberg wrote:Ok, I give up. Calling myself an insignificant one is far far too generous. Perhaps I should just sit down, preferably in Brazil, with an ice cold one in my hands, wait for Eta Carinae to shower me with whatever cosmic wave it wants to and always have access to APOD. and some farofa.


Let's have a convention. Where in Brazil?

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by neufer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:30 pm

Wolf kotenberg wrote:
Ok, I give up. Calling myself an insignificant one is far far too generous. Perhaps I should just sit down, preferably in Brazil, with an ice cold one in my hands, wait for Eta Carinae to shower me with whatever cosmic wave it wants to and always have access to APOD. and some farofa.
That's the spirit :!:

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Wolf kotenberg » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:20 pm

Ok, I give up. Calling myself an insignificant one is far far too generous. Perhaps I should just sit down, preferably in Brazil, with an ice cold one in my hands, wait for Eta Carinae to shower me with whatever cosmic wave it wants to and always have access to APOD. and some farofa.

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by neufer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:26 pm

bystander wrote:
neufer wrote:The radii are in a ratio of 1 to 46.

The volumes are in a ratio of 1 to 463.
For this, the radii are in a ratio of 380 × 106 to 46.6 × 109
CfA wrote:… (out to a distance of 380 million light-years) …
APOD Robot wrote:Image The Universe Nearby

Explanation: Bluer dots represent the nearer galaxies in the 2MASS survey,
while redder dots indicating the more distant survey galaxies that lie at a redshift near 0.1 [~ 109 lyrs]. >>

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by bystander » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:13 pm

neufer wrote:The radii are in a ratio of 1 to 46.

The volumes are in a ratio of 1 to 463.
For this, the radii are in a ratio of 380 × 106 to 46.6 × 109
CfA wrote:… (out to a distance of 380 million light-years) …

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by deathfleer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:07 pm

what's the scale of today's map, is it 1:1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by neufer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:57 pm

bystander wrote:
neufer wrote:
I get more like ~ 0.001%
That's just using a simple ratio of the radii (radiuses?). Since we are dealing with volume, shouldn't that be cubed?
The radii are in a ratio of 1 to 46.

The volumes are in a ratio of 1 to 463.

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by bystander » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:43 pm

neufer wrote:I get more like ~ 0.001%
That's just using a simple ratio of the radii (radiuses?). Since we are dealing with volume, shouldn't that be cubed?

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:23 pm

neufer wrote:I get more like ~ 0.001%
And of course, that's just for the observable Universe. If we consider the entire Universe, it's almost certainly a tiny fraction even of that... if not an infinitesimal one!

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:19 pm

garry wrote:Alton Arp, an astronomer of note, showed how we measure distance using redshift techniques can be seriously questioned. If so the current map of galaxies shown is not an exact map, but an estimation that may be flawed. If we completely understood the structure & workings of the Universe, why bother with being a lowly astronomer?
Halton Arp was well respected, but has generally lost a good deal of that because of his refusal to adapt his ideas to new evidence- a very unscientific way of thinking. Nothing that Arp proposed regarding redshift has held up to close examination, yet Arp continues to try bending the data to fit his ideas, not the other way around. In fact, virtually nobody seriously questions the utility of the redshift-distance relationship, and it is unlikely that this map is flawed in some fundamental respect.

Surely, nobody is suggesting that we completely understand the structure and workings of the Universe? The data contained in this image is useful for placing bounds on some of the unknowns, which in astronomy, is one of the most common ways that knowledge advances.

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by neufer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:13 pm

davidgin50 wrote:
I just did some primary school calculations on the back of an envelope and reckon that map represents a little under 2% of the whole - is that about right?
[list]I get more like ~ 0.001% :arrow: [/list]
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap071107.html wrote:
Galaxies within one billion light years
= a redshift of about 0.1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe wrote:
<<The current comoving distance to the particles which emitted the CMBR, representing the radius of the visible universe, is calculated to be about 14.0 billion parsecs (about 45.7 billion light years), while the current comoving distance to the edge of the observable universe is calculated to be 14.3 billion parsecs (about 46.6 billion light years).>>

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by orin stepanek » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:09 pm

you can get some stunning photos from 2mass image gallery! Might be worth downloading a shortcut. :wink: http://www.ipac.caltech.edu/2mass/gallery/

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by davidgin50 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:51 am

I just did some primary school calculations on the back of an envelope and reckon that map represents a little under 2% of the whole - is that about right?

Re: APOD: The Universe Nearby (2011 Jun 14)

by ben.gt » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:44 am

would be great to have this data in rotatable, zoomable 3d.

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