APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16)

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by neufer » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:20 pm

FLPhotoCatcher wrote:
I don't think the heliomagnetosphere of the smaller star attracts the expelled material at all. Nor do I think it is as neufer says, "the... solar wind of the red giant will preferably funnel through the center of gravity point at 30 AU..." I think the spiral is created where the solar winds from the two stars collide, and the collision point rotates around the red giant as the smaller star orbits, then the piled-up gas is pushed away by the stronger solar wind from the red giant. The spiral turns into a circle (really a sphere) as the spiral bands crush together at the edge of the heliosphere called the heliopause.
Perhaps, but remember that a steady solar wind comes from the high velocity component of an extended hot solar corona and, consequently, it should be very sensitive to small "gravitational" effects well above the solar surface.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by FLPhotoCatcher » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:20 am

dougettinger wrote:Let me guess what you are thinking. The ejecta is expelled rather slowly and steadily. The heliomagnetosphere of the smaller star attracts and/or drags the expelled material causing it to spiral. As this ejecta passes the companion star in its outward migration it maintains a spiralling trajectory. As the material moves farther away it loses its spiral and initiates a circular orbit. Am I close?
I don't think the heliomagnetosphere of the smaller star attracts the expelled material at all. Nor do I think it is as neufer says, "the... solar wind of the red giant will preferably funnel through the center of gravity point at 30 AU..." I think the spiral is created where the solar winds from the two stars collide, and the collision point rotates around the red giant as the smaller star orbits, then the piled-up gas is pushed away by the stronger solar wind from the red giant. The spiral turns into a circle (really a sphere) as the spiral bands crush together at the edge of the heliosphere called the heliopause.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by neufer » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:28 pm

dougettinger wrote:
Let me guess what you are thinking. The ejecta is expelled rather slowly and steadily. The heliomagnetosphere of the smaller star attracts and/or drags the expelled material causing it to spiral. As this ejecta passes the companion star in its outward migration it maintains a spiralling trajectory. As the material moves farther away it loses its spiral and initiates a circular orbit. Am I close?
You are probably sort of close to what I was originally thinking; however, I am now modifying that somewhat:
http://www.eso.org/public/news/eso1239/ wrote:
<<The system modeled here consists of a primary AGB star going through a thermal pulse and a small companion star. The separation between the stars used in the simulation is 60 astronomical units with a total mass of the system of two solar masses. The orbital period is 350 years.>>
Thus we have two (near solar mass) stars orbiting each other at a distance of 60 AU with one of them bloated out as a red giant with a radius of ~1 AU. I think that it is safe to say that the strong but slow (~17 km/s) solar wind of the red giant will preferably funnel through the center of gravity point at 30 AU and then be more or less swept up by the leading edge of the non-red giant's magneto-tail in the fashion of a giant wisk broom.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by Ann » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:24 am

Well, I don't think the ejecta are expelled slowly and steadily. At a very late stage of evolution, stars with a mass comparable to the Sun or greater become very unstable. They turn on their helium burning at or near their cores, which then expand and cool, which in turn shuts the helium burning off. But then the core contracts again, making the temperature rise, turning on the helium burning again. The onset of the helium burning often causes a very strong "pulse" working its way all the way through to the outer layers of the star, giving the outer layers an outward push. The way I understand it, it is these repeated "pulses" that make the red giant star expel more and more of its mass, eventually turning them into planetary nebulae surrounding hot exposed cores.

But you should really ask someone like Chris about the exact mechanisms here.

Ann

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by dougettinger » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:24 am

Let me guess what you are thinking. The ejecta is expelled rather slowly and steadily. The heliomagnetosphere of the smaller star attracts and/or drags the expelled material causing it to spiral. As this ejecta passes the companion star in its outward migration it maintains a spiralling trajectory. As the material moves farther away it loses its spiral and initiates a circular orbit. Am I close?

Trying to think spirally,
Doug

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by Ann » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:58 pm

dougettinger wrote:I see no evidence of a binary companion. And I see no reason how such an object can cause a spiral of such dimensions.

The outer ring is actually a dis-connected circle; the inner regions show more spiral characteristics. The configuration of the nebula is indicative of how the star is ejecting material from its surface. The first ejection was very fast, much faster than the rotational speed of the star. Hence, a very distinct equatorial circular outer ring of material was formed. Later ejections became less powerful, but still created less distinct circular rings of material. The earliest ejections are much less powerful and the ejecta velocities are much closer to the rotational speed of the star thereby creating the very distinct inner spiral that is being discussed.

That is my "take" on this very interesting red giant nebula,
Doug
The reason why you don't see the companion is likely because the companion is so very much fainter than R Sculptoris itself. Remember that R Sculptoris is likely at a late evolutionary phase where it is extremely bright for its mass. The companion, which is likely less massive than R Sculptoris, is probably unevolved and very much less bright. I have read somewhere that when the Sun becomes a red giant, it will undergo phases where it is briefly at least a thousand times brighter than it is now.

Also note that this picture was taken by a telescope which detects wavelengths that are much longer than visible light. A cool star like R Sculptoris will show up well here, but an unevolved companion whose temperature is comparable to that of, say, the present-day Sun, will likely be undetectable in an image like this unless special processing is made to bring it out.

But even if the companion is certainly very much less bright than R Sculptoris, it doesn't have to be much less massive. It could very well strongly affect and shape the outflows from R Sculptoris.

Ann

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by neufer » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:29 pm

Anthony Barreiro wrote:
Camille Carlisle on the Sky and Telescope website gives a clear explanation of how an orbiting binary star could create this spiral nebula.

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/Sta ... 87651.html
Ahhh.... so it's the speed modulation of the primary is it.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by Anthony Barreiro » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:56 pm

dougettinger wrote:I see no evidence of a binary companion. And I see no reason how such an object can cause a spiral of such dimensions.

The outer ring is actually a dis-connected circle; the inner regions show more spiral characteristics. The configuration of the nebula is indicative of how the star is ejecting material from its surface. The first ejection was very fast, much faster than the rotational speed of the star. Hence, a very distinct equatorial circular outer ring of material was formed. Later ejections became less powerful, but still created less distinct circular rings of material. The earliest ejections are much less powerful and the ejecta velocities are much closer to the rotational speed of the star thereby creating the very distinct inner spiral that is being discussed.

That is my "take" on this very interesting red giant nebula,
Doug
Camille Carlisle on the Sky and Telescope website gives a clear explanation of how an orbiting binary star could create this spiral nebula.

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/Sta ... 87651.html

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by dougettinger » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:43 pm

I see no evidence of a binary companion. And I see no reason how such an object can cause a spiral of such dimensions.

The outer ring is actually a dis-connected circle; the inner regions show more spiral characteristics. The configuration of the nebula is indicative of how the star is ejecting material from its surface. The first ejection was very fast, much faster than the rotational speed of the star. Hence, a very distinct equatorial circular outer ring of material was formed. Later ejections became less powerful, but still created less distinct circular rings of material. The earliest ejections are much less powerful and the ejecta velocities are much closer to the rotational speed of the star thereby creating the very distinct inner spiral that is being discussed.

That is my "take" on this very interesting red giant nebula,
Doug

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by Ann » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:30 am

FLPhotoCatcher wrote:
Philip Shull wrote: Do we know why the spiral shape (whether in visible or invisible light) seems to be so rare? Might a spiral be caused by emissions from just one area of a spinning star? Like water from a hose being swung around like a lasso?
Given the size of the nebula and speed of the stars 'solar' wind, the rotation of the star would have to be many years - neufer quoted 350 years. I'm not an astrophysicist, but I don't think that stars rotate that slowly, and even if they did, I know of no reason why emissions would be from just one area of a spinning star for so long.
The "350 years" that neufer quoted doesn't refer to the rotation of the red giant star, but to the orbital period of its companion.

For example, it takes the Earth 24 hours to rotate one full turn, but its orbital period around the Sun is 365 days.

Ann

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by Ann » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:27 am

Craig Messerman wrote:Anyone know the angular size of this nebula? I would like to know how our solar system would fit into the picture.
Neufer quoted a source which said:
The inner windings have a nearly constant spacing of average distance of 2.6” ~ 189 billion kilometers.
The distance between the Sun and the Earth is about 150 million kilometers. It seems to me that if neufer's source is correct, then the average distance between each inner winding of this spiral is ~ 1,000 times the distance between the Sun and the Earth.

Ann

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by FLPhotoCatcher » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:18 am

Philip Shull wrote: Do we know why the spiral shape (whether in visible or invisible light) seems to be so rare? Might a spiral be caused by emissions from just one area of a spinning star? Like water from a hose being swung around like a lasso?
Given the size of the nebula and speed of the stars 'solar' wind, the rotation of the star would have to be many years - neufer quoted 350 years. I'm not an astrophysicist, but I don't think that stars rotate that slowly, and even if they did, I know of no reason why emissions would be from just one area of a spinning star for so long.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by Craig Messerman » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:56 am

Anyone know the angular size of this nebula? I would like to know how our solar system would fit into the picture.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by geckzilla » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:20 am

If the spiral shape is rare, what isn't rare? I think spirals are one of the most common natural forms in the universe, at least as far as I've noticed. That, and spheres.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by Philip Shull » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:20 pm

Do we know why the spiral shape (whether in visible or invisible light) seems to be so rare? Might a spiral be caused by emissions from just one area of a spinning star? Like water from a hose being swung around like a lasso?

Thank you for your tremendous public service. I have been an avid follower since I heard about about APOD in a lecture given by Dr. Andy Fabian of Cambridge several years ago. As exquisite as the photos is the writing! Kindest Rgds, Philip Shull

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by neufer » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:39 pm

quigley wrote:
Would the outer "rings" of the spiral be closer together the further they travel from the originating star considering that their escape velocity would eventually slow? Or would they slow down at all?
The outer "rings" of the spiral are closer together the further they travel from R Sculptoris in small part due of gravitational breaking; however, magnetic field effects due to both stars (and the outer interstellar space) are really dominating the dynamics.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by quigley » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:20 pm

Would the outer "rings" of the spiral be closer together the further they travel from the originating star considering that their escape velocity would eventually slow? Or would they slow down at all?

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by neufer » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:47 pm

Beluga wrote:
I'm wondering about the orbiting time of the companion, or the rotation speed of the star itself.
If this feature is at 1500 light years away, it must be of considerable size. So the orbiting or rotation must be very, very slow in order to produce a spiral like this. So, if it is a companion, it can't be close to the star, and if it isn't close, how can it produce such an effect?
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Unlike the Beta Lyrae situation, the companion R Sculptoris star is NOT pulling off material :!:

Rather, the magneto-tail of companion R Sculptoris star is sculpting the strong solar wind plasma of the primary star.
http://www.o.org/public/archives/releases/sciencepapers/eso1239/eso1239a.pdf wrote:
The inner windings have a nearly constant spacing of average distance of 2.6” ~ 189 billion kilometers.

The R Sculptoris solar wind speed ~ 17.1 km/s.
  • Hence: the orbital period of the companion R Sculptoris star ~ 350 years.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by Beluga » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:58 am

I'm wondering about the orbiting time of the companion, or the rotation speed of the star itself.
If this feature is at 1500 light years away, it must be of considerable size. So the orbiting or rotation must be very, very slow in order to produce a spiral like this. So, if it is a companion, it can't be close to the star, and if it isn't close, how can it produce such an effect?

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by neufer » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:23 am

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by geckzilla » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:17 am

Fortunately, the APOD editors are indeed astronomers and not English majors. This means you can't really get into a good argument with them about such things. They try their best.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by neufer » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:09 am

jingming wrote:Hi,

An astronomer who comes up with a powerful hypothesis may be called 'insightful', but a star cannot be, lacking consciousness. What is apparently meant is something like "provides an opportunity to gain insights about stellar mechanics"
  • Perhaps "instructive" was the intended word.

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by Ann » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:42 am

The star in this APOD is an interesting but mild kind of "spiral star". If you want a big one, check out this spinning Wolf-Rayet massive star!

Ann

Re: APOD: A Spiral Nebula Surrounding Star R... (2012 Oct 16

by jingming » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:42 am

Hi,

An astronomer who comes up with a powerful hypothesis may be called 'insightful', but a star cannot be, lacking consciousness. What is apparently meant is something like "provides an opportunity to gain insights about stellar mechanics"

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