APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by alter-ego » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:20 am

neufer wrote:cos(√Lat) :?:
Good point, Art. A square root of an angle, that's pretty funky. There is a simpler function that better describes the ecliptic angle wrt the horizon at solstice sunset: (90-Lat)·√cos(Lat) i.e. square root of the cosine function. This is straight forward and doesn't require any fancy footwork :)
Chris Peterson wrote:
alter-ego wrote:Your comment about ecliptic angle = observer latitude caught my interest because, although very close to true in this picture, I didn't believe it was generally so...
I didn't try to follow your analysis, so I won't comment beyond saying that whether we use the latitude or (90° - latitude) in the calculations depends on the arbitrary choice of whether we measure with respect to the horizon or the perpendicular to the horizon. As a meteor scientist, I normally use the later in referring to angles in cases like this.

That said, my comment about the angle was mainly directed to the observation that the line of suns in the image do not lie along the ecliptic, because the ecliptic is moving with respect to the horizon. So the angle made by the line of suns isn't the angle of the ecliptic at sunset. That can be seen in these simulations, which show both the Sun at each time as well as the ecliptic at each time. The first image shows each frame, the second just the first and last. An image like this gives the impression that the ecliptic is steeper with respect to the horizon than it actually is.
Yes, I understood, and agree with, your comments about the ecliptic and sunset path angle appearing steeper. Your pictures showing the sag (concave-up curvature) in the sunset path visually express your statement nicely (the value of a picture!). Prior to my analysis, I made the exact pictures both with and w/o refraction to see just how much impact the atmosphere has (then of course I became interested in more detail :D ). The changing ecliptic slope is why I chose to calculate the ecliptic angle at the moment of sunset (altitude = 0°) Your certainly right, too, about choice of axis for zero degrees. Recognizing this, I tried to be clear with my angle definition which I thought logically agreed admirer's view. As a meteor scientist, it makes sense that you would naturally reference angles normal to the horizon.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:22 pm

alter-ego wrote:Your comment about ecliptic angle = observer latitude caught my interest because, although very close to true in this picture, I didn't believe it was generally so...
I didn't try to follow your analysis, so I won't comment beyond saying that whether we use the latitude or (90° - latitude) in the calculations depends on the arbitrary choice of whether we measure with respect to the horizon or the perpendicular to the horizon. As a meteor scientist, I normally use the later in referring to angles in cases like this.

That said, my comment about the angle was mainly directed to the observation that the line of suns in the image do not lie along the ecliptic, because the ecliptic is moving with respect to the horizon. So the angle made by the line of suns isn't the angle of the ecliptic at sunset. That can be seen in these simulations, which show both the Sun at each time as well as the ecliptic at each time. The first image shows each frame, the second just the first and last. An image like this gives the impression that the ecliptic is steeper with respect to the horizon than it actually is.
ecliptic1.jpg
ecliptic2.jpg

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by neufer » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:39 pm

cos(√Lat) :?:

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by alter-ego » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:22 am

neufer wrote:
admirer wrote:
Can we deduce the latitude of the observer from the angle between the path of the sun and the horizon, knowing the date?
Yes. And the angle = the latitude at equinox.
Just a minor correction: The acute angle (0 ≤ Θ ≤ 90°) between the sun path and the horizon = 90 - Latitude at the equinox, i.e. at the equator, the sunset path is vertical.
Chris Peterson wrote:... Furthermore, the angle with respect to the horizon is exactly as it should be for the date (note that the angle of the ecliptic at sunset is equal to the latitude of the observer, 42°, but appears somewhat more vertical in this image because the ecliptic doesn't intersect the images of the Sun; it changes position quite a bit over an hour and a half).
Your comment about ecliptic angle = observer latitude caught my interest because, although very close to true in this picture, I didn't believe it was generally so. At the Solstice, I modeled the spherical trig details for refraction-free cases at arbitrary latitudes. I looked at the derivative of altitude wrt azimuth for an azimuth range of 15°before the sunset az (inclusive). Here's what I found:
1. Due to a changing ecliptic orientation wrt the horizon (your comment), the refraction-free sunset path has a "sag" (concave appearance) that amounts to about 2/3 the sag for the sunset path which includes refraction. So although small, the bulk of the path curvature appears to originate from the changing ecliptic orientation due to Earth's rotation.
2. At the solstice, I looked at the ecliptic angle wrt the horizon at the moment of sunset, and at latitudes ranging from 0° to 60°. I found that the ecliptic angle = latitude fortuitously at ~42°, and nowhere else. It turns out the "fundamental" angle from which to derive the ecliptic angle variation with latitude is still "90-Latitude", not Latitude. Within a few degrees error in predicting the ecliptic angle at sunset (over a 60° latitude range), I found an interesting (though arbitrary) equation: EclAng ≈ (90-Lat)·½·[cos(√Lat)+cos(Lat)]. So at sunset on the Solstice, the ecliptic angle ≈ 90-Lat for low latitudes. At Lat ~42°, the ecliptic angle and latitude are equal. At Lat = 60°, the ecliptic angle ≈ 20°.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by DavidLeodis » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:27 pm

I am confused as to when the image sequence was acquired. In the explanation it states it was taken "June solstice day of 2012". There is no date information with the image (in Danilo Pivato's website) that was brought up through the "This composite image" in the explanation. However, in the 'Sequences & Sunset' in the 'Miscellany' section of the website there is a small version of the image that has "Seq. & Selfportrit - S.Severa 1986". I'm :?. It is though a good interesting image.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by neufer » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:23 pm

Fritz Stumpges wrote:
Hi All, sorry to have gotten off on this curved path idea. I checked a bit more and you are all correct; the path only changes less than 1/6 the diameter of the sun here, so is quite small. I was just remembering a time lapse of star trails setting and how straight the ones on the equatorial plane looked and how curved others on either side looked. Must have been a much wider field of view.
A single hour's worth of a single star trail is generally pretty straight:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110805.html
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap111014.html

But it is fun to go off on tangents.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by Fritz Stumpges » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:48 am

Hi All, sorry to have gotten off on this curved path idea. I checked a bit more and you are all correct; the path only changes less than 1/6 the diameter of the sun here, so is quite small. I was just remembering a time lapse of star trails setting and how straight the ones on the equatorial plane looked and how curved others on either side looked. Must have been a much wider field of view. Also, I wasn't implying that Danilo had manipulated the image...just that there are so many new photographic creations these days it is sometimes hard to figure out what is what while enjoying the beauty.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by fausto.lubatti » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:45 am

... by the way, a very original idea and great picture to celebrate solstice! :-)

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by Beyond » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:14 am

I wonder where this part of the thread is going to end up :?:
From what i can find, kicky-wicky only has to do with Shakespeare, and seems to mean a wife, and there's even less about the unseen box.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by geckzilla » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:59 am

I'll be sure to shoot it and put it out of its misery first, then.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by neufer » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:55 am

geckzilla wrote:
I looked up what kicky-wicky means after writing that. Now I feel kind of bad.

I will instead kick your unseen box instead of your kicky-wicky.
But I keep my kicky-wicky in my unseen box.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by geckzilla » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:45 am

I looked up what kicky-wicky means after writing that. Now I feel kind of bad. I will instead kick your unseen box instead of your kicky-wicky.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by Beyond » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:21 am

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA :!: :!: Although it seems more poiple to me. But still... HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA :!: :!:
But if it was a light color blue, like Uranus, then you could kick...

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by geckzilla » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:14 am

I'm gonna punt your kicky-wicky across the forum if I see another blue verse out of you!

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by neufer » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:08 am

geckzilla wrote:
I think you might be talking about a different curve, Art.
  • As You Like It Act 3, Scene 2
CELIA: Cry 'holla' to thy tongue, I prithee; it curvets.
  • All's Well That Ends Well Act 2, Scene 3
PAROLLES: He wears his honour in a box unseen,
  • That hugs his kicky-wicky here at home,
    Spending his manly marrow in her arms,
    Which should sustain the bound and high curvet
    Of Mars's fiery steed.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by rstevenson » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:21 am

Yes, there's a curve, but it's a very tiny one...
curved.jpg
I drew that black line on a crop of the full image using my software's straight line tool. I can zoom in on it and can see that my line touches the edge of both the top and bottom sun images, and is just three pixels off the edges of a few of the middle sun images. So... curved? Yes. Obviously? Not so much.

Rob

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by geckzilla » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:42 am

I made an illustration depicting what I meant with lens distortion. All it would take for the distortion to have a significant effect on the path of the sun is for it to be on the left side of the frame which could be cropped off. (Or it might not be. Only the photographer knows.)

Not saying this is definitely it, just saying I think it's possible. The first frame is undistorted, second frame has simulated distortion, last frame is what we would see. Red line is a straight line for reference.

http://www.geckzilla.com/apod/lensdistort.png

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by Fish918 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:36 am

This dude can run!

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by geckzilla » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:13 am

I think you might be talking about a different curve, Art.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by neufer » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:04 am

geckzilla wrote:
Fritz Stumpges wrote:
One thing I question about this series of photos is that the sun appears to be setting (or rising in some place in the south) at too straight of a path to have occurred on the solstice? It looks like the pictures were taken approximately 5 minutes apart and so this should have occurred over 80 minutes or so. Even allowing for refraction close to the horizon straightening out the last few frames a little, this path is far to straight for a solstice...it's more like an equinox.
Such a curve would be subtle.
It is clearly curved (i.e., concave) slightly upwards as one would expect both at summer solstice & with refraction.
http://cseligman.com/text/sky/moonillusion.htm wrote:

<<To many people, the Moon appears much larger when rising or setting than when it is higher in the sky. This effect is particularly pronounced when the horizon appears far away. In reality, the Moon's image is actually SMALLER when it is on the horizon, than when it is higher in the sky; as a result, this phenomenon is an illusion. No explanation of the Moon Illusion has general acceptance, but this page (when revised and completed) will hew to the following theory:
Things seen at large distances appear smaller than nearby things (that tiny lion sitting over there is probably just as big, but further away than that huge one, hungrily eyeing us). Almost everyone is aware of this "perspective" effect; but not as many are aware that our brain automatically corrects for the effect, to a certain extent -- that is, things that are further away look smaller than nearby things, but not as small to our brain as on our retinas. For reasons to be discussed below, which are more or less obvious without discussion, the horizon appears further away than the sky appears high, so when the Moon is on the horizon it appears further away, and our brain "adjusts" the image sent to it by our eyes, to tell us that it is really larger than what we see.
I favor this theory because (1) when we look at distant mountains, they appear larger than in snapshots taken at the same place and (2) on planetarium domes, showing the Moon and Sun at their correct size makes them look much smaller than they do in the sky. In the planetarium, we can tell that the images are much closer to us than in the sky, and even though they are the right size on our retina, they look far too small to our brains. (At LBCC, we have to show the Moon and Sun four times their correct size to approximate their appearance in the sky.) This seems to be corroborated by the fact that constellations also look smaller on the planetarium dome than in the real sky, even though their angular size is actually the same.

A series of images taken by astronaut Don Pettit from the International Space Station, showing the full moon "setting" on April 16, 2003 (the "setting" being caused by the orbital motion of the Space Station). As a celestial object's light passes through our atmosphere it is bent, or refracted, making it appear thigher than it really is. As the object nears the horizon, the amount of refraction rapidly increases, so as the Moon sets, its lower limb is "lifted" more than the top, making the Moon appear vertically squashed (but leaving its horizontal width unchanged). Scattering of light by the atmosphere, greater at shorter wavelengths than longer ones, also makes the Moon look redder as it descends. The same phenomena are observable on the Earth, but because the setting Moon is "below" the Space Station, the effects are doubled, compared to the view from the ground. (Don Pettit, Les Cowley, ISS, NASA)>>

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:17 pm

Fritz Stumpges wrote:One thing I question about this series of photos is that the sun appears to be setting (or rising in some place in the south) at too straight of a path to have occurred on the solstice? It looks like the pictures were taken approximately 5 minutes apart and so this should have occurred over 80 minutes or so. Even allowing for refraction close to the horizon straightening out the last few frames a little, this path is far to straight for a solstice...it's more like an equinox. I don't know anything about the Photoshop (OR?) type of manipulations are needed to create many of these pictures we see nowadays but it seems that you could make just about any appearance you wish; which is sad to me. I'm sure there are many possible explanations.
What do you mean by "straight"? With such a narrow angle FOV, you'd expect the path to be uncurved. Furthermore, the angle with respect to the horizon is exactly as it should be for the date (note that the angle of the ecliptic at sunset is equal to the latitude of the observer, 42°, but appears somewhat more vertical in this image because the ecliptic doesn't intersect the images of the Sun; it changes position quite a bit over an hour and a half).

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by geckzilla » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:52 pm

Fritz Stumpges wrote:One thing I question about this series of photos is that the sun appears to be setting (or rising in some place in the south) at too straight of a path to have occurred on the solstice? It looks like the pictures were taken approximately 5 minutes apart and so this should have occurred over 80 minutes or so. Even allowing for refraction close to the horizon straightening out the last few frames a little, this path is far to straight for a solstice...it's more like an equinox. I don't know anything about the Photoshop (OR?) type of manipulations are needed to create many of these pictures we see nowadays but it seems that you could make just about any appearance you wish; which is sad to me. I'm sure there are many possible explanations.
Such a curve would be subtle. One thing I could think of that could easily alter the path of the sun would be the camera's lens distortion. I would be hesitant to suggest that the photographer purposefully straightened the line of suns out because simply stacking the photos would be sufficient with the camera on a tripod using an auto timer.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by Fritz Stumpges » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:33 pm

One thing I question about this series of photos is that the sun appears to be setting (or rising in some place in the south) at too straight of a path to have occurred on the solstice? It looks like the pictures were taken approximately 5 minutes apart and so this should have occurred over 80 minutes or so. Even allowing for refraction close to the horizon straightening out the last few frames a little, this path is far to straight for a solstice...it's more like an equinox. I don't know anything about the Photoshop (OR?) type of manipulations are needed to create many of these pictures we see nowadays but it seems that you could make just about any appearance you wish; which is sad to me. I'm sure there are many possible explanations.

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by Anthony Barreiro » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:36 pm

Happy Summer (whether you consider today to be Midsummer Day, the first day of Summer, or just another Friday after Memorial Day and before Labor Day) to all my friends in the northern hemisphere, including Colorado! And my friends in the southern hemisphere, take heart! Your days will begin to lengthen soon.

I got up early this morning to walk up the hill so I could see the solstice sunrise over the hills of Oakland across the bay (which was more golden hued than wine dark). It's true, the sun rose quite a ways north of Mount Diablo. I don't recall ever seeing a more northerly sunrise from here. And I've been enjoying watching my noontime shadow shortening during the past few weeks. Now I'll watch to see if the sunrises and sunsets move south and my shadow get longer. Pretty cool planet we live on here.

Here's a very cool page from earthsky.org with pictures and video of the solstices and equinoxes as seen from a geosynchronous weather satellite: http://earthsky.org/space/watching-sols ... from-space

Re: APOD: A Solstice Sunset Self Portrait (2013 Jun 21)

by Beyond » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:52 pm

geckzilla wrote:
ozproff wrote:
A June solstice marks the astronomical beginning of summer in the northern hemisphere and winter in the south.
Why does APOD continue to state this fallacy????? The June solstice DOES NOT mark the ASTRONOMICAL BEGINNING of summer in the northern hemisphere and winter in the south. It marks the astronomical MIDDLE of summer in the northern hemisphere.

The June solstice might mark the beginning of CIVIL summer in the USA, but not in Europe. June 1 marks the CIVIL beginning of summer there. June 1 also marks the CIVIL beginning of winter in the southern hemisphere.

As an astronomy professor I have enough trouble correcting this misconception amongst my students without APOD compounding the problem! Please get it right!
We've been here before.
Ya think we'll be here again next year :?: :mrgreen:

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