APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by geckzilla » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:52 pm

That 'silly' astrobiology. Just a very cool public lecture by Dr. David Grinspoon aka Dr. Funkyspoon
Actual lecture starts at about 15:30 (click for direct jump) if you are short on time.
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:28 pm

BMAONE23 wrote: Every Human is Anthropocentric WRT the Visible Universe
And the rest of it, as well.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by BMAONE23 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:07 pm

geckzilla wrote:
Beyond wrote:ANTHROPOCENTRIC

anthropocentric - The Free Dictionary
an·thro·po·cen·tric ( n thr -p -s n tr k). adj. 1. Regarding humans as the central element of the universe. 2. Interpreting reality exclusively in terms of human values ...

I think that's rather dumb :!: :yes:
That's the status quo for humanity, though. We're all athropocentric to some degree, especially for definition 2.
Every Human is Anthropocentric WRT the Visible Universe

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Beyond » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:39 pm

Close as in "horseshoes", or "government work" :?:

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by neufer » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:59 pm

Beyond wrote:
neufer wrote:
the Beyond Center
IF you could actually find that center, you most likely would not understand any of it. :no:
Wow, Beyond....we actually come close to agreement on something :-).

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Beyond » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:56 pm

Gee, it's amazing what one can find in Wikipedia. :yes:

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by rstevenson » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:49 pm

geckzilla wrote:... We're all athropocentric to some degree, ... .
Speak for yourself. I judge everything on the basis of how well it suits dolphins and mice.

Rob (who is not 42)

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by geckzilla » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:17 pm

Beyond wrote:ANTHROPOCENTRIC

anthropocentric - The Free Dictionary
an·thro·po·cen·tric ( n thr -p -s n tr k). adj. 1. Regarding humans as the central element of the universe. 2. Interpreting reality exclusively in terms of human values ...

I think that's rather dumb :!: :yes:
That's the status quo for humanity, though. We're all athropocentric to some degree, especially for definition 2.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Beyond » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:08 pm

ANTHROPOCENTRIC

anthropocentric - The Free Dictionary
an·thro·po·cen·tric ( n thr -p -s n tr k). adj. 1. Regarding humans as the central element of the universe. 2. Interpreting reality exclusively in terms of human values ...

I think that's rather dumb :!: :yes:

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:04 pm

robgendler wrote:Wow Chris....we actually come close to agreement on something :-).
I suspect we agree about a whole lot more than we disagree about. We just don't discuss our common beliefs in this forum. 'Tis the nature of Internet dialog, for the most part.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Beyond » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:02 pm

neufer wrote: the Beyond Center
IF you could actually find that center, you most likely would not understand any of it. :no:

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by robgendler » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:55 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
robgendler wrote:"If microbial life is widespread in the cosmos, we can expect that, at least here and there, sentient beings will evolve. We would then be much closer to answering that age-old puzzle of existence: Are we alone in the universe? "

Good article...except for the above grossly determistic assumption. If intelligence is highly selected for (inevitable sentient beings) then answer me the following. Arguably the second most intelligent animal on earth (the chimpanzee) has not been even remotely as successful as man from an evolutionary perspective. Also there is good evidence for the existence and subsequent extinction of multiple hominid species, all highly intelligent and likely highly conscious beings. The highly intelligent marine mammals although successful in their own way are not any more successful than sharks.....a primitive group having shown little change over 400 million years. The article was great until his last sentence which reveals obvious anthropogenic thinking and bias.
Indeed, there is a tendency to think of humans as somehow being "at the top" of the evolutionary ladder. That leads to thinking that sentience is somehow an evolutionary endpoint.

Sentience is no more impressive than teeth or claws. It either allows a species to be successful, or it does not. If humans are any example, sentience is likely not a good evolutionary path for a species, as it seems our time of existence may be limited by our very sentience.

I agree completely with the comment that bacterial life implies the emergence of sentience, at least occasionally. But it tells us nothing about how many other sentient species might exist at any one time.

Another bias comes in connecting sentience with technology. For all I know, whales and dolphins are more sentient, and more intelligent by many metrics than humans. They may well be more successful species. But since we tend to evaluate intelligence by tool use, we don't even hardly know how to consider them.
Wow Chris....we actually come close to agreement on something :-). Its very, very difficult for many people to see homo sapiens as not a "climax" species....but just another transitional species like many before us (and after). These discussions are often so unconsciously contaminated with anthropocentric thinking even among expert scientists in the field.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by geckzilla » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:45 pm

neufer wrote:
robgendler wrote:
should read "anthropocentric"
You can go back and edit it you know.
You can't edit posts with guest accounts.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:44 pm

robgendler wrote:"If microbial life is widespread in the cosmos, we can expect that, at least here and there, sentient beings will evolve. We would then be much closer to answering that age-old puzzle of existence: Are we alone in the universe? "

Good article...except for the above grossly determistic assumption. If intelligence is highly selected for (inevitable sentient beings) then answer me the following. Arguably the second most intelligent animal on earth (the chimpanzee) has not been even remotely as successful as man from an evolutionary perspective. Also there is good evidence for the existence and subsequent extinction of multiple hominid species, all highly intelligent and likely highly conscious beings. The highly intelligent marine mammals although successful in their own way are not any more successful than sharks.....a primitive group having shown little change over 400 million years. The article was great until his last sentence which reveals obvious anthropogenic thinking and bias.
Indeed, there is a tendency to think of humans as somehow being "at the top" of the evolutionary ladder. That leads to thinking that sentience is somehow an evolutionary endpoint.

Sentience is no more impressive than teeth or claws. It either allows a species to be successful, or it does not. If humans are any example, sentience is likely not a good evolutionary path for a species, as it seems our time of existence may be limited by our very sentience.

I agree completely with the comment that bacterial life implies the emergence of sentience, at least occasionally. But it tells us nothing about how many other sentient species might exist at any one time.

Another bias comes in connecting sentience with technology. For all I know, whales and dolphins are more sentient, and more intelligent by many metrics than humans. They may well be more successful species. But since we tend to evaluate intelligence by tool use, we don't even hardly know how to consider them.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by neufer » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:41 pm

robgendler wrote:
should read "anthropocentric"
You can go back and edit it you know.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by robgendler » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:37 pm

should read "anthropocentric"

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by neufer » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:36 pm

stephen63 wrote:
Paul Davies pondered just that: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/opini ... .html?_r=0
Paul Davies is the director of the Beyond Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science at Arizona State University and the author of “The Eerie Silence: Renewing Our Search for Alien Intelligence.”
Might we have Alien "Intelligence" within our own midst :?:

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by robgendler » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:34 pm

"If microbial life is widespread in the cosmos, we can expect that, at least here and there, sentient beings will evolve. We would then be much closer to answering that age-old puzzle of existence: Are we alone in the universe? "

Good article...except for the above grossly determistic assumption. If intelligence is highly selected for (inevitable sentient beings) then answer me the following. Arguably the second most intelligent animal on earth (the chimpanzee) has not been even remotely as successful as man from an evolutionary perspective. Also there is good evidence for the existence and subsequent extinction of multiple hominid species, all highly intelligent and likely highly conscious beings. The highly intelligent marine mammals although successful in their own way are not any more successful than sharks.....a primitive group having shown little change over 400 million years. The article was great until his last sentence which reveals obvious anthropogenic thinking and bias.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by stephen63 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:44 pm

robgendler wrote:Sorry to resurrect this thread but I had a thought which I believe is pertinent to the discussion. It is universally agreed that all living organisms on earth share a common ancester which existed somewhere around 3.8 billion years ago. There is no fossil or molecular evidence of any separate origin of life after this event. This very basic life form gave rise to all future life on our planet. We do know that conditions on the young earth changed fairly rapidly in the first billion years with rapid cooling and formation of oceans, atmosphere, etc. The important point here is that life began only once during the course of 4.5 billion years on a planet with an early history of fairly dramatic geologic and atmospheric change. If the origin of life is to be considered a common event in the universe (occurring under a variety of conditions), then it should have evolved multiple times on our own planet given the huge variety of geologic and atmospheric changes that have occurred on earth over geologic time periods. However it is striking that as far as we know life has not had multiple origins. The obvious conclusion is that the formation of life from organic compounds requires a very strict set of conditions which occurred once and these very specific conditions did not last very long during the early period in our planets history. This very considerably narrows the window of conditions from which life will form from organic compounds IMO. If.... as was said by several others in this thread.... that life might very well form in any combination of geologic conditions....then it should have formed again and again and again during the long history of our planet. Certainly earth has offered up an immense range of different environmental conditions during 4.5 billion years...but yet life began only one time. This should IMO temper the enthusiasm for a "universe teaming with life". Anyway feel free to fire away at this deductive reasoning :-).
It's a good argument, but far from perfect. What we don't, in fact know, is how many times life separately developed and died out. We don't know that because we have only the sparsest of physical evidence of anything on the Earth during its first billion years. It may well be that the conditions that make it easy for life to form were only found in that early environment. If so, that should increase the likelihood of life forming on other planets.

Also, I'd say your assertion that all living organisms on Earth share a common ancestor being a matter of universal agreement is overstated. It's a reasonable and widely held assumption, but not everybody believes it is certain, and there is good solid science still being directed at that question. One line of evidence suggests that life poisons the conditions for the development of new life.

Lots of research opportunities left in this field!

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by robgendler » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:34 pm

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I had a thought which I believe is pertinent to the discussion. It is universally agreed that all living organisms on earth share a common ancester which existed somewhere around 3.8 billion years ago. There is no fossil or molecular evidence of any separate origin of life after this event. This very basic life form gave rise to all future life on our planet. We do know that conditions on the young earth changed fairly rapidly in the first billion years with rapid cooling and formation of oceans, atmosphere, etc. The important point here is that life began only once during the course of 4.5 billion years on a planet with an early history of fairly dramatic geologic and atmospheric change. If the origin of life is to be considered a common event in the universe (occurring under a variety of conditions), then it should have evolved multiple times on our own planet given the huge variety of geologic and atmospheric changes that have occurred on earth over geologic time periods. However it is striking that as far as we know life has not had multiple origins. The obvious conclusion is that the formation of life from organic compounds requires a very strict set of conditions which occurred once and these very specific conditions did not last very long during the early period in our planets history. This very considerably narrows the window of conditions from which life will form from organic compounds IMO. If.... as was said by several others in this thread.... that life might very well form in any combination of geologic conditions....then it should have formed again and again and again during the long history of our planet. Certainly earth has offered up an immense range of different environmental conditions during 4.5 billion years...but yet life began only one time. This should IMO temper the enthusiasm for a "universe teaming with life". Anyway feel free to fire away at this deductive reasoning :-).

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:00 pm

mjimih wrote:Let's look at stable/old, warm n rocky ones, with water first.
Of course, because we know what to look for there. The limitations are largely technical ones, and technical limitations to get reduced over time.

It will be the job of some astrobiologists to elucidate possible non-organic chemistries that could be used by life. And assuming they identify alternate chemistries, that will provide new things for the observers to seek out.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by neufer » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:52 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus wrote:
Brand experimented with urine, which contains considerable quantities of dissolved phosphates from normal metabolism. Working in Hamburg, Brand attempted to create the fabled philosopher's stone through the distillation of some salts by evaporating urine, and in the process produced a white material that glowed in the dark and burned brilliantly. It was named phosphorus mirabilis ("miraculous bearer of light").
Should have called it uranium, or maybe urinium.
  • Or Porphyrias instead of Phosphorus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyria wrote: <<The porphyrias are a group of rare inherited or acquired disorders of certain enzymes that normally participate in the production of porphyrins and heme. The term porphyria is derived from the Greek πορφύρα, porphyra, meaning "purple pigment". The name is likely to have been a reference to the purple discolouration of feces and urine when exposed to light in patients during an attack.

The mental illness of George III is the basis of the plot in The Madness of King George, a 1994 British film based upon the 1991 Alan Bennett play, The Madness of George III. The closing credits of the film include the comment that the illness suffered by King George has been attributed to porphyria and that it is hereditary. Among other descendants of George III theorised by the authors of Purple Secret to have suffered from porphyria. In 2
Note: There might be an audio player above this text. If not, click here to download the file.005 it was suggested that arsenic (which is known to be porphyrogenic) given to George III with antimony may have caused his porphyria. It is believed that Mary, Queen of Scots – King George III's great-great-great-great-great-grandmother – also suffered from acute intermittent porphyria, although this is subject to much debate. It is assumed she inherited the disorder, if indeed she had it, from her father, James V of Scotland; both father and daughter endured well-documented attacks that could fall within the constellation of symptoms of porphyria.

Vlad III was also said to have suffered from acute porphyria, which may have started the notion that vampires were allergic to sunlight.

Other commentators have suggested that Vincent van Gogh may have suffered from acute intermittent porphyria. It has also been speculated that King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon suffered from some form of porphyria (cf. Daniel 4).>>

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by mjimih » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:47 pm

Chris wrote; "But what about radically different environments? What about the surface of icy bodies, or deep inside planets, or the bottom of extremely deep oceans (including oceans of something other than water)?"

that's precisely where I was going. When we start getting clues as to what to look for, keeping our eyes wide open, I think scientists will have a ton fun with it.

"I see "life" as nothing more than spatially confined organized chemical reactions, with sufficient information storage to replicate."

And an extraordinary amount of time, billions, for the environment to create it too. In most cases the really complex ones' (Earth) fail imo. Hey! we need more extra sensitive instruments made as soon as possible. Let's look at stable/old, warm n rocky ones, with water first.

Re: APOD: Kepler 78b: Earth Sized Planet... (2013 Nov 05)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:06 pm

neufer wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus wrote: Brand experimented with urine, which contains considerable quantities of dissolved phosphates from normal metabolism. Working in Hamburg, Brand attempted to create the fabled philosopher's stone through the distillation of some salts by evaporating urine, and in the process produced a white material that glowed in the dark and burned brilliantly. It was named phosphorus mirabilis ("miraculous bearer of light").
Should have called it uranium, or maybe urinium.

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