APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:55 pm

Anthony Barreiro wrote:By the way, according to my planetarium software Pluto is currently visual magnitude 14.2 and Chariklo magnitude 18.6. 2.512^4.4 = 58, right? So isn't Pluto now 58 times as bright as Chariklo? Am I doing the math wrong?
Nothing wrong with your math. When I made that image of Pluto in 2008 I measured it at mv = 15.0. And I think the most recently published magnitude for Chariklo is mv = 18.3. If so, there's a factor of 20 brightness difference between the two. In any case, these magnitude values can be pretty variable, as our distances shift and the orientation with respect to the Sun changes. Whatever numbers we use, the difference is still relatively small in terms of imaging parameters. Even at a factor of 50, the exposure time is still quite short.
Oh, and P.S. -- I'll start calling that constellation Scorpius if you promise to start using proper Latin genitives. In the mean time, I know what you mean by "Alpha Centaurus" and you know what I mean by "Scorpio."
No, I'm going to keep pushing to eliminate the Latin genitive form in English. I only point out "Scorpio" because that term has already been co-opted by astrologers. Knock yourself out if you want to use it... we'll all know what you mean, of course.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Anthony Barreiro » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:33 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Anthony Barreiro wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I still would not call an 18th magnitude object very bright. I don't take pictures, but I can't imagine that imaging an asteroid 50 times fainter than Pluto would be a trivial undertaking. Charilko is currently in Scorpio, transiting during astronomical dawn. Could you snap us a picture tomorrow morning?
That's Scorpius. And I don't casually do imaging early in the morning! However, it might be a fun thing to go for this summer, when Scorpius is better placed.

For reference, I was imaging a Pluto occultation a few years ago and needed very short exposures to preserve the timing. The image below is an unprocessed, single 5-second frame from the sequence (I just converted the FITS to a JPEG and added the annotation). The S/N for Pluto is 40 (with 3 the usual standard for detection). A mere 30-minute exposure of Pluto would saturate my camera. Chariklo at mag 18 is only 16 times fainter than Pluto at mag 15, suggesting I should be able to capture an image with similar S/N in an exposure of about 90 seconds. I do call that a bright object.
pluto-043-anot.jpg
Thanks for the lesson about imaging what I still think of as faint solar system objects. If you do take a picture of Chariklo at some time, I would be grateful to see it. And I'll content myself with the fact that in the context of astrophotography Chariklo has been downgraded from "very bright" to merely "bright."

By the way, according to my planetarium software Pluto is currently visual magnitude 14.2 and Chariklo magnitude 18.6. 2.512^4.4 = 58, right? So isn't Pluto now 58 times as bright as Chariklo? Am I doing the math wrong?

Oh, and P.S. -- I'll start calling that constellation Scorpius if you promise to start using proper Latin genitives. In the mean time, I know what you mean by "Alpha Centaurus" and you know what I mean by "Scorpio."

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:28 pm

Anthony Barreiro wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I still would not call an 18th magnitude object very bright. I don't take pictures, but I can't imagine that imaging an asteroid 50 times fainter than Pluto would be a trivial undertaking. Charilko is currently in Scorpio, transiting during astronomical dawn. Could you snap us a picture tomorrow morning?
That's Scorpius. And I don't casually do imaging early in the morning! However, it might be a fun thing to go for this summer, when Scorpius is better placed.

For reference, I was imaging a Pluto occultation a few years ago and needed very short exposures to preserve the timing. The image below is an unprocessed, single 5-second frame from the sequence (I just converted the FITS to a JPEG and added the annotation). The S/N for Pluto is 40 (with 3 the usual standard for detection). A mere 30-minute exposure of Pluto would saturate my camera. Chariklo at mag 18 is only 16 times fainter than Pluto at mag 15, suggesting I should be able to capture an image with similar S/N in an exposure of about 90 seconds. I do call that a bright object.
pluto-043-anot.jpg

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by geckzilla » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:27 pm

Anthony Barreiro wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I still would not call an 18th magnitude object very bright. I don't take pictures, but I can't imagine that imaging an asteroid 50 times fainter than Pluto would be a trivial undertaking. Charilko is currently in Scorpio, transiting during astronomical dawn. Could you snap us a picture tomorrow morning?
Andre van der Hoeven recently created a deep image of M81 and M82 which captured objects to almost magnitude 24.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/avdhoeven/13589009855/
Andre is pretty great, so maybe it is not trivial to him but not terribly difficult, either. 18 is bright compared to 24.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Anthony Barreiro » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:53 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Anthony Barreiro wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: ... (and at 18 magnitude, the object is very bright, easily captured by small amateur telescopes, though not resolved by them) ... .
Chris, your ideas of "very bright" and "small amateur telescopes" are very different from mine! Or maybe everything is different at 3000 meters elevation. Maybe a 200 mm aperture dobsonian telescope shipped from sea level will swell to 1000 mm aperture in the lower air pressure.
When I say "captured" it means I'm talking about imaging. If I meant visually, I'd say "see" or something along those lines. Imaging a mag 18 point source is quite trivial with a small telescope and an electronic camera. At any elevation, and even under less than perfectly dark conditions.
Thanks for the clarification. I still would not call an 18th magnitude object very bright. I don't take pictures, but I can't imagine that imaging an asteroid 50 times fainter than Pluto would be a trivial undertaking. Charilko is currently in Scorpio, transiting during astronomical dawn. Could you snap us a picture tomorrow morning?

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by DavidLeodis » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:25 pm

geckzilla wrote:She doesn't actually have one. That link was supposed to be an email address written in English but the mailto: was left off the front so it is treated as a local site URL.
Thanks geckzilla for that clarification. :)

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by geckzilla » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:36 pm

She doesn't actually have one. That link was supposed to be an email address written in English but the mailto: was left off the front so it is treated as a local site URL.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by DavidLeodis » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:07 pm

When I click on the 'Lucie Maquet' link in the credit I keep getting the webpage cannot be found message. It may just be a temporary problem but in case not does anyone know of another link to information on Lucie Maquet. Thanks.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by neufer » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:30 am

neufer wrote:
Anthony Barreiro wrote:
This illustration shows Chariklo as roughly spherical. Would an asteroid of 250 km diameter be able to pull itself into a spherical shape? Would that make Chariklo a dwarf planet?
Probably not.
BDanielMayfield wrote:
So Chariklo (a potato with a side order of onion rings) would more accurately be classified as a minor planet, which is not a planet at all. Gota love antiquated astronomical nomenclature. :?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaur_%28minor_planet%29 wrote:
<<No centaur has been photographed up close, although there is evidence that Saturn's moon Phoebe may be a captured centaur.>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_%28moon%29 wrote:
:arrow: <<Phoebe (Greek: Φοίβη) is an irregular satellite of Saturn a little over 200 km in diameter. It is thought to be a captured planetesimal from the Kuiper belt.The Phoebe ring is one of the rings of Saturn. This ring is tilted 27 degrees from Saturn's equatorial plane (and the other rings). It extends from at least 128 to 207 times the radius of Saturn; Phoebe orbits the planet at an average distance of 215 Saturn radii. The ring is about 20 times as thick as the diameter of the planet. Since the ring's particles are presumed to have originated from micrometeoroid impacts on Phoebe, they should share its retrograde orbit, which is opposite to the orbital motion of the next inner moon, Iapetus. Inwardly migrating ring material would thus strike Iapetus's leading hemisphere, and is suspected to have triggered the processes that led to the two-tone coloration of that moon. Although very large, the ring is virtually invisible—it was discovered using NASA's infrared Spitzer Space Telescope.>>

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Nitpicker » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:50 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:
neufer wrote:
Anthony Barreiro wrote:
This illustration shows Chariklo as roughly spherical. Would an asteroid of 250 km diameter be able to pull itself into a spherical shape? Would that make Chariklo a dwarf planet?
Probably not.
So Chariklo (a potato with a side order of onion rings) would more accurately be classified as a minor planet, which is not a planet at all. Gota love antiquated astronomical nomenclature. :?

Bruce
Not antiquated. Contemporary yet increasingly problematic.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by BDanielMayfield » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:46 pm

neufer wrote:
Anthony Barreiro wrote:
This illustration shows Chariklo as roughly spherical. Would an asteroid of 250 km diameter be able to pull itself into a spherical shape? Would that make Chariklo a dwarf planet?
Probably not.
So Chariklo (a potato with a side order of onion rings) would more accurately be classified as a minor planet, which is not a planet at all. Gota love antiquated astronomical nomenclature. :?

Bruce

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:37 pm

Anthony Barreiro wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: ... (and at 18 magnitude, the object is very bright, easily captured by small amateur telescopes, though not resolved by them) ... .
Chris, your ideas of "very bright" and "small amateur telescopes" are very different from mine! Or maybe everything is different at 3000 meters elevation. Maybe a 200 mm aperture dobsonian telescope shipped from sea level will swell to 1000 mm aperture in the lower air pressure.
When I say "captured" it means I'm talking about imaging. If I meant visually, I'd say "see" or something along those lines. Imaging a mag 18 point source is quite trivial with a small telescope and an electronic camera. At any elevation, and even under less than perfectly dark conditions.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by neufer » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:50 pm

Anthony Barreiro wrote:
This illustration shows Chariklo as roughly spherical. Would an asteroid of 250 km diameter be able to pull itself into a spherical shape? Would that make Chariklo a dwarf planet?
  • Probably not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_planet#Size_and_mass wrote:
<<The lower size and mass limits of dwarf planets is determined by the requirements of achieving a hydrostatic equilibrium shape, but the size or mass at which an object attains this shape depends on its composition and thermal history. Empirical observations suggest that the lower limit will vary according to the composition and thermal history of the object. For a body made of rigid silicates, such as the stony asteroids, the transition to hydrostatic equilibrium should occur at a diameter of approximately 600 km and a mass of some 3.4×1020 kg. For a body made of less rigid water ice, the limit should be about 320 km and 1019 kg. Assuming that Methone's elongated shape reflects the balance between the tidal force exerted by Saturn and its own gravity, its diameter only 3 km suggests that it is composed of icy fluff. In the asteroid belt, Ceres is the only body that clearly surpasses the silicaceous limit (though it is actually a rocky–icy body), and its shape is an equilibrium spheroid. 2 Pallas and 4 Vesta, however, are rocky and are just below the limit. Pallas, at 525–560 km and 1.85–2.4×1020 kg, is "nearly round" but still somewhat irregular. Vesta, at 530 km and 2.6×1020 kg, deviates from an ellipsoid shape primarily due to a large impact basin at its pole.

Among icy bodies, the smallest thought to be in hydrostatic equilibrium when the concept of dwarf planet was being debated was Mimas, at 396 km and 3.75×1019 kg. The largest irregular body known in the outer Solar System is Proteus, nearly-but-not-quite round at 405–435 km and an assumed mass of ≈4.4×1019 kg. Bodies like Mimas may have had a warmer thermal history than Proteus, or their shape may have resolved after a collision. Neither body is pure ice as used to calculate the lowest limit, however, and Mike Brown suggested that the practical lower limit for an icy dwarf planet is likely to be somewhere under 400 km. There are about 100 TNOs currently estimated to be above this size. However, it has since been discovered that Mimas is not in hydrostatic equilibrium, and that its ellipsoidal shape is due to its past history, rather like the more extreme case of tiny Phoebe. The smallest Saturnian moon confirmed to be in hydrostatic equilibrium is Rhea, at 1,530 km, whereas the largest not in equilibrium is Iapetus, at 1,470 km. These findings have not been discussed in the context of dwarf planets, but Iapetus and Rhea are in the size range of Makemake (1,415–1,445 km) and larger than Haumea (1,180–1,310 km).>>

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Anthony Barreiro » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:30 pm

This illustration shows Chariklo as roughly spherical. Would an asteroid of 250 km diameter be able to pull itself into a spherical shape? Would that make Chariklo a dwarf planet?

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Anthony Barreiro » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:27 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ... (and at 18 magnitude, the object is very bright, easily captured by small amateur telescopes, though not resolved by them) ... .
Chris, your ideas of "very bright" and "small amateur telescopes" are very different from mine! Or maybe everything is different at 3000 meters elevation. Maybe a 200 mm aperture dobsonian telescope shipped from sea level will swell to 1000 mm aperture in the lower air pressure.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by neufer » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:12 pm

APOD Robot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaur_%28minor_planet%29 wrote: <<Centaurs are small Solar System bodies with a semi-major axis between those of the outer planets. They have unstable orbits that cross or have crossed the orbits of one or more of the giant planets, and have dynamic lifetimes of a few million years. It has been estimated that there are around 44,000 centaurs in the Solar System with diameters larger than 1 km.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... rs.svg.png

Centaurs typically behave with characteristics of both asteroids & comets. Three centaurs have been found to display cometary comas: Chiron, 60558 Echeclus, and 166P/NEAT. Chiron & Echeclus are therefore classified as both asteroids & comets. Other centaurs such as 52872 Okyrhoe are suspected of showing cometary activity. Any centaur that is perturbed close enough to the Sun is expected to become a comet. They are named after the mythological beings that were a mixture of horse and human, centaurs.

The first centaur to be discovered was 944 Hidalgo in 1920. However, they were not recognized as a distinct population until the discovery of 2060 Chiron in 1977. The largest known centaur is 10199 Chariklo, which at 260 km in diameter is as big as a mid-sized main-belt asteroid, and is known to have a system of rings. It was discovered in 1997. However, the lost centaur, 1995 SN55, may be somewhat larger. No centaur has been photographed up close, although there is evidence that Saturn's moon Phoebe, imaged by the Cassini probe in 2004, may be a captured centaur. In addition, the Hubble Space Telescope has gleaned some information about the surface features of 8405 Asbolus.>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10199_Chariklo wrote: <<10199 Chariklo (KARR-i-kloh or kə-RIK-loh) is the largest known "centaur" or minor planet orbiting between the gas giants. It orbits the Sun between Saturn and Uranus, grazing the inner orbit of Uranus (with a ~ 4:3 resonance). On 26 March 2014, astronomers announced the discovery of two rings nicknamed Oiapoque and Chuí, after two rivers that form the northern and southern coastal borders of Brazil, around Chariklo by observing a stellar occultation. Chariklo (discovered by James V. Scotti of the Spacewatch program on February 15, 1997) is named after the nymph Chariclo (Χαρικλώ, “graceful spinner”), the wife of Chiron and the daughter of Apollo.

Centaurs originated in the Kuiper belt and are in dynamically unstable orbits that will lead to ejection from the Solar System, an impact with a planet or the Sun, or transition into a short-period comet. The orbit of Chariklo is more stable than those of Nessus, Chiron, and Pholus and is estimated to have a long orbital half-life of about 10.3 Myr.>>

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by JohnD » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:02 pm

What do you see when you click on "computer simulations"?

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by geckzilla » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:29 pm

JohnD wrote:APOD now showing: Something Completely Different - Chariklo animation.
What happened?
John
Sounds like a weird problem you've got. I never saw anything but the Chariklo animation.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by JohnD » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:23 pm

APOD now showing: Something Completely Different - Chariklo animation.
What happened?

And is someone joking with APOD? See the link "computer simulations", which goes to:
http://www.macworksinc.net/Images/rand.jpg

John

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by geckzilla » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:04 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:The rings are 0.08 arcseconds across when the asteroid is at its closest, which is right on the hairy edge of HST resolution limit. But there are ground-based telescopes that have quite a bit higher resolution than Hubble.

As far as brightness, if we can image the system with the rings quite open, their reflecting area is about 1/8 that of the asteroid itself. Given that ring systems are often very high albedo, it's possible that we're receiving about the same amount of light from the rings as we are from the (probably dark) asteroid. So imaging might be feasible (and at 18 magnitude, the object is very bright, easily captured by small amateur telescopes, though not resolved by them).

An interesting experiment: with a large telescope, we could collect the spectrum of the object. This could be repeated in a decade or so, when the ring orientation had changed. That might allow us to see two separate spectra populations, one for the asteroid and the other for the rings.
James Webb? I know images of Uranus work well in infrared. I hope this asteroid ends up on the target list for JWST if it would result in a worthwhile image plus data.

With the Internet and online archives being made publicly available that experiment could happen whether anyone intends it to or not.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by CURRAHEE CHRIS » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:13 pm

neufer wrote:
CURRAHEE CHRIS wrote:
Just so I have this straight- Chariklo is an asteroid?????? and it has rings around it???? Im assuming these rings are in orbit or some kind of motion around Chariklo then?
You have it straight.

Nine rings were intended for Men, seven for Dwarves, five for the ice giants, four for Jupiter, three for the Elves, two for Chariklo, and one, the One Ring, for Sauron in Mount Doom.
:lol2: :P

Good one!!! Thanks for the clarification. Always something new to be learned here on APOD. I would have never thought such a phenomenon could exist.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:08 pm

geckzilla wrote:Imaging the asteroid might end up something like that, assuming the rings are big enough to be resolved.
The rings are 0.08 arcseconds across when the asteroid is at its closest, which is right on the hairy edge of HST resolution limit. But there are ground-based telescopes that have quite a bit higher resolution than Hubble.

As far as brightness, if we can image the system with the rings quite open, their reflecting area is about 1/8 that of the asteroid itself. Given that ring systems are often very high albedo, it's possible that we're receiving about the same amount of light from the rings as we are from the (probably dark) asteroid. So imaging might be feasible (and at 18 magnitude, the object is very bright, easily captured by small amateur telescopes, though not resolved by them).

An interesting experiment: with a large telescope, we could collect the spectrum of the object. This could be repeated in a decade or so, when the ring orientation had changed. That might allow us to see two separate spectra populations, one for the asteroid and the other for the rings.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by Boomer12k » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:23 pm

OK....COOL..... a blip, a dip, and a blip....

I wonder, are they smashed rocks, or ICE?????

:---[===] *

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by neufer » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:47 pm

CURRAHEE CHRIS wrote:
Just so I have this straight- Chariklo is an asteroid?????? and it has rings around it???? Im assuming these rings are in orbit or some kind of motion around Chariklo then?
You have it straight.

Nine rings were intended for Men, seven for Dwarves, five for the ice giants, four for Jupiter, three for the Elves, two for Chariklo, and one, the One Ring, for Sauron in Mount Doom.

Re: APOD: Two Rings for Asteroid Chariklo (2014 Apr 09)

by CURRAHEE CHRIS » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:35 pm

Just so I have this straight- Chariklo is an asteroid?????? and it has rings around it???? Im assuming these rings are in orbit or some kind of motion around Chariklo then?

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