APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:08 pm

Guest wrote:"Our Earth is not at rest. The Earth moves around the Sun. The Sun orbits the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. The Milky Way Galaxy orbits in the Local Group of Galaxies. The Local Group falls toward the Virgo Cluster of Galaxies." So all of these objects are orbiting larger objects, yet the Local Group is falling toward the Virgo Cluster. How do we know the Local Group is not also in orbit about something, but we just can't perceive the scale?
"The Local Group is falling toward the Virgo Cluster" means that it is in orbit around it. The Virgo Cluster (and us along with it) is in orbit around the Virgo Supercluster.

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by Guest » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:53 pm

"Our Earth is not at rest. The Earth moves around the Sun. The Sun orbits the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. The Milky Way Galaxy orbits in the Local Group of Galaxies. The Local Group falls toward the Virgo Cluster of Galaxies." So all of these objects are orbiting larger objects, yet the Local Group is falling toward the Virgo Cluster. How do we know the Local Group is not also in orbit about something, but we just can't perceive the scale?

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by DavidLeodis » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:57 am

Thanks neufer for your help, which is appreciated. :)

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by neufer » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:20 am

DavidLeodis wrote:
I am wondering if there is a reason why this APOD is titled 'CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the Universe' yet on the last three uses of this image those APODs were titled 'CMBR Dipole: Speeding Through the Universe'.
"CaMBRidge" is such a relic term:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMB wrote:
<<The cosmic microwave background (CMB) is the thermal radiation assumed to be left over from the "Big Bang" of cosmology. In older literature, the CMB is also variously known as cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR) or "relic radiation.">>
DavidLeodis wrote:
I'm having trouble finding what happened to the COBE satellite when its 4-year mission ended. Did it burn up or is it still in orbit but perhaps no longer working for very many years? Thanks for any help. :)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/big-bang-satellite-to-be-switched-off-1503035.html wrote:
Big Bang satellite to be switched off
STEVE CONNOR , Science Correspondent, 09 November 1993

<<The American space agency, Nasa, has added Cobe to a growing list of projects that have fallen victim to the US government's budget cuts. George Smoot, a principal investigator on the Cobe project, said in London yesterday that he was officially told last month that the Cobe research would be cut. 'The satellite will probably be turned off at the end of January and that's for lack of money. We've known for a while that there are money pressures in the US, and it costs about dollars 500,000 a year to run Cobe.' We approached the Europeans because you go where the opportunities are.'>>
http://science.nasa.gov/missions/cobe/ wrote:
<<COBE was launched November 18, 1989. Instrument operations were terminated December 23, 1993. As of January 1994, engineering operations were to conclude that month, after which operation of the spacecraft was transferred to Wallops for use as a test satellite.>>

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by DavidLeodis » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:37 pm

I am wondering if there is a reason why this APOD is titled 'CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the Universe' yet on the last three uses of this image those APODs were titled 'CMBR Dipole: Speeding Through the Universe'.

I'm having trouble finding what happened to the COBE satellite when its 4-year mission ended. Did it burn up or is it still in orbit but perhaps no longer working for very many years? Thanks for any help. :)

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by bls0326 » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:23 pm

Thanks. That makes sense now. I knew I had to be missing something.
Brian

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:00 pm

bls0326 wrote:know a little about CMB, expansion, etc. Looked at the map, read the discussions. Still do not understand what the red in middle of the blue means. If we are moving in the direction of blue shifted areas, how are we moving away from the red area in the middle of the blue. Or is the red indicating something else totally and the orange area is the other side of the sky we are moving away from.
Calibrate your monitor. There is no red. The scale covers a few millikelvins, with violet being coldest and orange being hottest. In the lower left you should be seeing a blue zone with violet in its center. We are moving away from the yellow and orange region in the upper right, and towards the blue and violet region in the lower left.

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by bls0326 » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:43 pm

know a little about CMB, expansion, etc. Looked at the map, read the discussions. Still do not understand what the red in middle of the blue means. If we are moving in the direction of blue shifted areas, how are we moving away from the red area in the middle of the blue. Or is the red indicating something else totally and the orange area is the other side of the sky we are moving away from. Or???

Brian

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:50 pm

mario wrote:Well, we may not be sure of course, but I thought that the belief today, as far as the CMBR is concerned, is that the entire Universe is just filled with almost uniform black body radiation and that there is no reason to believe that one part of the Universe is different from the other.
However, it is precisely the sort of data presented in today's APOD that has led cosmologists to look at the very real possibility that we don't fully understand all size scales of structure in the Universe. It is very difficult to observationally assess scales on the order of size of the observable universe. But data like this can hint at what we can't see directly.
Nobody can prove that, but this is the most logical and simple hypothesis, which is always the best choice.
Limiting our ideas to our easiest observations is not necessarily logical, and does not necessarily lead to the simplest hypothesis.
So my point is: if it was true (and if I understand it cannot be ruled out more than it can be proved), then an absolute reference system could be at least "defined" in a consistent way, and this would be a great change in our point of view.
Perhaps there is an absolute reference system for the Universe. But that certainly is not the CMB, because that is a local phenomenon, dependent upon the location of the observer. It is quite certain that the CMB I observe is different from the one you observe (although by an extremely small amount). It is certain that the CMB as observed from billions of light years away looks entirely different from the one we observe here. Whether it looks qualitatively the same is an unanswered question.

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by mario » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:17 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:we have no idea [...] what the broad structure of the entire Universe looks like.
Well, we may not be sure of course, but I thought that the belief today, as far as the CMBR is concerned, is that the entire Universe is just filled with almost uniform black body radiation and that there is no reason to believe that one part of the Universe is different from the other. Nobody can prove that, but this is the most logical and simple hypothesis, which is always the best choice.
So my point is: if it was true (and if I understand it cannot be ruled out more than it can be proved), then an absolute reference system could be at least "defined" in a consistent way, and this would be a great change in our point of view.

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:44 pm

mario wrote:Ok, but the effect that we are seeing here is indeed a "broad structure", not, for example the non uniformities due to changes in density at the early universe, if that is what you mean.
How do we know it is broad structure, though? Certainly, it is large scale in terms of the CMB that we locally observe. But we have no idea (outside of where the LCDM model leads us... and as good as that model is, it's certainly not complete) what the broad structure of the entire Universe looks like. Statistically, anomalies like this may occasionally show up at this scale, and we just happen to be encountering a rare example in our locally visible CMB.

Since we are likely only seeing the tiniest fraction of the entire universe, it is perhaps a bit risky to make too broad of inferences from our limited observational capacity.

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by mario » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:16 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Guest wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: Observers in other parts of the Universe see an entirely different microwave background at their local horizon.
Why? And in what is it different?
They are seeing photons produced in a different part of the Universe. In broad structure, they're probably seeing something similar. In detail, however, not at all.
Ok, but the effect that we are seeing here is indeed a "broad structure", not, for example the non uniformities due to changes in density at the early universe, if that is what you mean. So the frame in which there is no average redshift in one direction and blueshift in the other should still be a good frame for both.
However, I guess that two observers very far apart could both see no redshift but still be moving away from each other because of the expansion, so maybe that is why there is no absolute frame. (and maybe that is what you meant.)

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by mario » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:06 pm

Guest wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: Observers in other parts of the Universe see an entirely different microwave background at their local horizon.
Why? And in what is it different?
Sorry, the post above (by "Guest") was mine.

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:02 pm

Guest wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: Observers in other parts of the Universe see an entirely different microwave background at their local horizon.
Why? And in what is it different?
They are seeing photons produced in a different part of the Universe. In broad structure, they're probably seeing something similar. In detail, however, not at all.

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by Guest » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:59 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Observers in other parts of the Universe see an entirely different microwave background at their local horizon.
Why? And in what is it different?

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:37 pm

JohnD wrote:So what are the blobs?
Well, they lie on the galactic plane, so it's likely they are local artifacts. Curious that they seem to lie in the direction we are orbiting in the galaxy, and directly opposite that.

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by JohnD » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:11 pm

Frame of rference = non starter.
So what are the blobs?
(see my post above)
John

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:43 pm

hoohaw wrote:In exactly the same sense the microwave background is VERY convenient as a frame of reference, not just for us, but for everyone in the Universe.
Observers in other parts of the Universe see an entirely different microwave background at their local horizon. While our theory predicts a uniform background at the scale of the CMB, it would only require subtle modifications to that theory to change that. Certainly, the CMB is at best a convenient frame of reference for us. For the rest of the Universe, it probably is not.

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:39 pm

Psnarf wrote:Was the 600km/s speed adjusted to account for space-time expansion? My guess is that since space-time expansion is constant in all directions, it would not affect the speed relative to the CMB.
We tend to get in trouble when we think of the Universe expanding at some speed. That's why it's best to stick with redshift. Speed seems more like a Doppler issue, and that's not what's going on.

It is not certain that expansion is uniform. Indeed, we know it is not. There is no expansion within our galaxy, but there is far outside it. Expansion varies with scale. We cannot see most of the Universe, only the tiny piece of it we call the observable universe, that bit which hasn't moved out of our zone of causality. The cosmological model that we currently believe describes things best tells us that at the scale of the observable universe, expansion should be uniform and we should not see this sort of structure. But it's likely that our model, while broadly correct, remains incomplete.

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by Psnarf » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:22 pm

Was the 600km/s speed adjusted to account for space-time expansion? My guess is that since space-time expansion is constant in all directions, it would not affect the speed relative to the CMB.

quo vadis - where are you going (present indicative singular)
quo vadimus - where are we going (present indicative plural)
speculative - not authoritative, guess-work, sans latin dictionary

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by Cousin Ricky » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:38 pm

Ann wrote:Quo vadum(?)? Where are we going?
My best guess is "vadimus," but Latin still throws me for a loop.

Re: APOD: CMB Dipole: Speeding Through the... (2014 Jun 15)

by Tszabeau » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:09 pm

Makes me wonder if motion causes the condensation of matter and gravity or vice versa?

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by hoohaw » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:05 am

mario wrote:
hoohaw wrote: Yes and no. There is no absolute frame of reference, but the cosmic microwave background comes close!
Can you explain, please?
Special Relativity taught us that there is no such thing as absolute motion. But of course there are reference frames that are convenient to consider as "absolute" even though they are not. For example, the room in which I am sitting, I treat as an absolute frame of reference in daily life - things move relative to it, but it seems absolutely stationary. Of course it is not, it is moving, even rotating ...
In exactly the same sense the microwave background is VERY convenient as a frame of reference, not just for us, but for everyone in the Universe. Pretty darn good! But Special Relativity is still true, and there is no absolute frame. Is the microwave background moving? Rotating?

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by mario » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:47 am

hoohaw wrote: Yes and no. There is no absolute frame of reference, but the cosmic microwave background comes close!
Can you explain, please?

Re: CMBR and the absolute motion. Does this mean that Ether

by hoohaw » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:32 am

mario wrote: If this is so, could that be THE universal frame of reference? We could
finally say whether something moves or is at rest, absolutely
(i.e. not relatively).
It would be similar to the old idea of an ether filling the space, with
respect to which the Earth moves in its orbital and galactic motion.
Only, it is not the light speed that changes depending on the
direction, but the CMBR wavelength, but the point is: there exists
one absolute frame of reference in the Universe.
Is that correct?
Yes and no. There is no absolute frame of reference, but the cosmic microwave background comes close!

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