APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by DavidLeodis » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:42 am

This is interesting but not light reading! :)

Just for a bit of light relief here's a question. How do you easily make a faulty lamp work?

Answer: Raise our hands, as many hands make light work. :) Oops, I tried to hide that but it did not work.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:24 pm

geckzilla wrote:Sloppy? But that's how it's been used the whole time. UV is a kind of light. Infrared is a kind of light. And then everyone's favorite, the human retina-friendly visible kind of light. But, yes, I am using it as a synonym for electromagnetic radiation. I get real tired of typing that word out, too. Anyway, if I'm sloppy then so are the people telling me that UV and infrared are light.
The parts of UV and IR close to the visible spectrum are meaningfully called light. Extreme UV and far-IR are only marginally so. These definitions actually make good physical sense, which is why I would encourage their use. Calling cosmic rays or radio waves "light" is just adding confusion, IMO.

But like I said, try it. You're not really wrong, just unconventional. I'll stick with less ambiguous usage, myself.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:18 pm

Sloppy? But that's how it's been used the whole time. UV is a kind of light. Infrared is a kind of light. And then everyone's favorite, the human retina-friendly visible kind of light. But, yes, I am using it as a synonym for electromagnetic radiation. I get real tired of typing that word out, too. Anyway, if I'm sloppy then so are the people telling me that UV and infrared are light.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:01 pm

geckzilla wrote:Well, why is it ok to say UV light, visible light, and infrared light, but not, say, microwave light? Is it just because this form of EM radiation no longer works with familiar things such as objects made of materials which to our eyes look like lenses and mirrors?
Exactly. EM energy in these bands behaves fundamentally the same way.
Are there not other mediums which can be used as unconventional lenses for other kinds of light even if our eyes can't see it happening?
See, this is where the confusion starts. "Other kinds of light"? What does that mean? If you're using "light" as a synonym for electromagnetic radiation, that's certainly sloppy. I'd never say "other kinds of EM", because there's really just one kind. Or are we talking about different parts of the spectrum? Confusing.

In the lab, people have come up with clever ways of manipulating various wavelengths in unconventional ways. For example, peculiar metamaterials that focus microwaves in a way analogous to a refractive material. These tricks serve to demonstrate that all electromagnetic radiation is subject to the same laws of physics. But usually, that's all they demonstrate. The reality is that different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum interact with physical bodies in very different ways, which is why we have developed natural boundaries around various wavelengths and find it convenient to label these parts differently, as well.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:48 pm

Well, why is it ok to say UV light, visible light, and infrared light, but not, say, microwave light? Is it just because this form of EM radiation no longer works with familiar things such as objects made of materials which to our eyes look like lenses and mirrors? Are there not other mediums which can be used as unconventional lenses for other kinds of light even if our eyes can't see it happening?

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:16 pm

geckzilla wrote:I don't think people are over it at all. If you labeled all cell phones as radiation emitters, people would freak out. You could even label it like "This cellphone emits harmless radiation." and people would be even more wary. There is no shortage of websites out there purporting the dangers of microwaves. I know a family here who doesn't have a microwave oven because they think it's not healthy to eat microwaved food.
Oh well. I make a distinction between simple language and dumbed-down language.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:09 pm

I don't think people are over it at all. If you labeled all cell phones as radiation emitters, people would freak out. You could even label it like "This cellphone emits harmless radiation." and people would be even more wary. There is no shortage of websites out there purporting the dangers of microwaves. I know a family here who doesn't have a microwave oven because they think it's not healthy to eat microwaved food.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:41 pm

geckzilla wrote:You've been a physicist for so long that "electromagnetic radiation" isn't difficult at all. I am still struggling with the fact that light is the joining of electrical and magnetic forces into one. And radiation to any normal person just brings up thoughts of Chernobyl, that green glowing stick that gets stuck to Homer Simpson's back, and atomic bombs.
I remember when CD players came out, and were the first common consumer device to contain a laser (hardly anybody had LaserDisc players). As required, the CD players had the standard laser warning label, cautioning the user about "laser radiation". Some people got very concerned about that, because, as you say, they couldn't separate "radiation" from nuclear bombs. A similar issue came up with microwave ovens.

But people seem mostly to have gotten over that. I'm all for clarity in scientific discussions with non-scientists, but not to the point of modifying standard language in a way that actually makes things less clear, which is what I think happens when we use "light" instead of "electromagnetic radiation". There is value in teaching the idea that "light" as people understand it represents just a portion of the entire spectrum, just like radio, x-rays, etc.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:57 pm

You've been a physicist for so long that "electromagnetic radiation" isn't difficult at all. I am still struggling with the fact that light is the joining of electrical and magnetic forces into one. And radiation to any normal person just brings up thoughts of Chernobyl, that green glowing stick that gets stuck to Homer Simpson's back, and atomic bombs.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:16 pm

geckzilla wrote:I totally agree the theory vs experimental thing and I understand the segregation for that purpose but having a simple name (light) to call all of it would make it a lot friendlier to people and remind them that they can use the analogy of visible light, which most people understand on a basic level, for all other types of electromagnetic radiation. Calling it radiation, submillimeter, radio, x-rays, etc. creates technical barriers for lay people to understand.
Try it. But for me, "electromagnetic radiation" seems the ideal choice. Using just "light" is going to be ambiguous or confusing in many cases. I go for clarity over lack of scariness.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by DavidLeodis » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:28 pm

The mention of photons reminded me of the photon torpedoes used in the Star Trek series. Very handy weapons! Sorry for bringing the interersting scientific debate down to a low level but I thought a bit of lightness (photons - light, :wink: ) may bring a needed :).

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:53 am

I totally agree the theory vs experimental thing and I understand the segregation for that purpose but having a simple name (light) to call all of it would make it a lot friendlier to people and remind them that they can use the analogy of visible light, which most people understand on a basic level, for all other types of electromagnetic radiation. Calling it radiation, submillimeter, radio, x-rays, etc. creates technical barriers for lay people to understand. It's scary, technical, and mysterious. Visible light is comfortable and familiar. The people at Chandra understood this first and made sure to always include a chart showing where the light being represented by the picture actually fits in the overall spectrum. That, along with image swaps allows interested individuals to comprehend what's being presented more easily.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:11 am

geckzilla wrote:Well, that's fine. I'll be an annoying oddball, then. To me the cutoff point at somewhere beyond visible doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems arbitrary. Kind of like the definition of a planet, which made sense until some people put a lot of thought into it and then I started thinking about it too and then it stopped making total sense and now I don't really agree with the IAU either.
There is no clear cutoff, or even any formal definitions. There's just conventional usage, based very practically on how the radiation is produced, manipulated, and detected. Basically, technology places different parts of the spectrum into different convenient domains, each with their own nomenclature. From the standpoint of theoretical physics, the same equations govern the entire range of EM. From the standpoint of experimental physics, radio, submillimeter, light, x-rays, and high energy gamma rays are all very different things.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:02 am

Well, that's fine. I'll be an annoying oddball, then. To me the cutoff point at somewhere beyond visible doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems arbitrary. Kind of like the definition of a planet, which made sense until some people put a lot of thought into it and then I started thinking about it too and then it stopped making total sense and now I don't really agree with the IAU either.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:51 am

geckzilla wrote:It's hard to see because of the choice of coloration but there is a diffraction pattern. The part which most interests me is in the magenta. Before this picture, radio was just a thing that music broadcast over and was collected mysteriously by antennae.
Well, I remember studying antenna design. Diffraction is certainly part of that. An image like this lets us see that radio and light exhibit similar behavior. You can look at x-ray diffraction patterns, too, and see that even very short wavelengths also exhibit such behavior. It's a common property of all EM.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:45 am

It's hard to see because of the choice of coloration but there is a diffraction pattern. The part which most interests me is in the magenta. Before this picture, radio was just a thing that music broadcast over and was collected mysteriously by antennae.
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Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:30 am

geckzilla wrote:I mean this:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=717684661611165

After I saw that picture I stopped thinking of radio as distinct from light. It was a bit of an epiphany for me. I know lenses and mirrors are no longer useful when dealing with x-rays and radio waves but I know of no word other than optics for the study of light. I see no reason why it should be separated and I know of no other word for the study of the very long or very short wavelengths.
I don't really see where that image led you, but it doesn't matter. As long as you understand that in common usage, "light" is generally used only for EM in the visible and a bit on either side, where we see it manipulated using refractive materials, which is mainly what "optics" applies to, as well.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:56 am

I mean this:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=717684661611165

After I saw that picture I stopped thinking of radio as distinct from light. It was a bit of an epiphany for me. I know lenses and mirrors are no longer useful when dealing with x-rays and radio waves but I know of no word other than optics for the study of light. I see no reason why it should be separated and I know of no other word for the study of the very long or very short wavelengths.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:58 pm

geckzilla wrote:And yet optical phenomena can be observed in radio signals... because it's light.

(Please correct me if this statement is totally out of sync with reality. It's just the way I understand things so far.)
I don't know what you mean by "optical phenomena". Radio is certainly part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Its energy is certainly carried by photons. But you will not usually see radio energy referred to as "light", nor will you usually see the methods used to produce or detect radio waves referred to as "optics".

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:24 pm

And yet optical phenomena can be observed in radio signals... because it's light.

(Please correct me if this statement is totally out of sync with reality. It's just the way I understand things so far.)

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:59 pm

geckzilla wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
geckzilla wrote:It bothers me that "optical" is used so commonly to refer to just the visible spectrum. Optics involves all light, visible and non.
That is generally true. But when you say it, what do you mean by "light"?
Photons.
Well, "light" usually refers to the part of the electromagnetic spectrum where we apply optical methodologies. Somewhere below the short end of the UV range we don't use conventional optics, but particle manipulators. Somewhere between far IR and submillimeter we start using things like waveguides, and think more in terms of manipulating radio signals, not photons.

We don't generally use "optical" to refer to all parts of the spectrum. It's reasonably wider than just the visible spectrum, but most of the spectrum is outside of what we typically call "light".

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:11 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
geckzilla wrote:It bothers me that "optical" is used so commonly to refer to just the visible spectrum. Optics involves all light, visible and non.
That is generally true. But when you say it, what do you mean by "light"?
Photons.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:51 pm

geckzilla wrote:It bothers me that "optical" is used so commonly to refer to just the visible spectrum. Optics involves all light, visible and non.
That is generally true. But when you say it, what do you mean by "light"?

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by geckzilla » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:35 pm

starsurfer wrote:I'm not familiar with what anyone is talking about considering I'm optically minded but this is a fantastic discussion!
It bothers me that "optical" is used so commonly to refer to just the visible spectrum. Optics involves all light, visible and non.

Re: APOD: The Galactic Core in Infrared (2015 Jan 18)

by starsurfer » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:20 pm

I'm not familiar with what anyone is talking about considering I'm optically minded but this is a fantastic discussion!

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