APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Roberto Capacci » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:42 am

Dust storm,I suppose.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Symbology » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:24 am

Symbology wrote:I would guess that it is a result of the sun thawing a large deposit of water (or other) ice beneath the surface in a vast pocket. Every now and then the gas given off by this cause the ground over the pocket to swell up and eventually collapse, giving off a rush of methane or hydrogen that blows dust particles into the atmosphere.
Further to the above, the following Pingos and craters in Siberia can be over 250 ft across, and it would therefore seem possible that their collapse might trigger an upward blast of gas or other, causing the dust plumes :

"...A pingo, also called a hydrolaccolith, is a mound of earth-covered ice found in the Arctic and subarctic that can reach up to 70 metres (230 ft) in height and up to 600 m (2,000 ft) in diameter. The term originated as the Inuvialuktun word for a small hill. The plural form is "pingos"...."

"...When a massive and mysterious hole was discovered in Siberia last July (see pictures), social media users pointed to everything from a meteorite to a stray missile to aliens to the Bermuda Triangle as possible causes. But the most plausible explanation seemed to be the explosive release of melting methane hydrate—an ice-like material frozen in the Arctic ground—thanks to global warming.

Now, scientists are arguing that the methane theory is unlikely, based on new satellite surveys released by Russian researchers that found dozens of new craters in Siberia.

"The jury is still out" on the cause of Siberia's craters, says Carolyn Ruppel, chief of the U.S. Geological Survey's Gas Hydrates Project. But she and other scientists say the new satellite mapping suggests another explanation that has to do with the rapid melting of ice cores called pingos.

A pingo is a plug of ice that forms near the surface over time and has a small mound or hill on top.

When an ice plug melts rapidly—as many have been, thanks to unseasonably warm temperatures in Siberia over the past year—it can cause part of the ground to collapse, forming a crater. But that process alone isn't enough to explain the ejected rocks that have been found around the rim of the craters, which suggest some sort of explosion.

Instead, Ruppel theorizes that the craters were formed by a sudden release of natural gas that had been stored in the permafrost but was kept under pressure by the weight of the pingo.

This theory is bolstered by the Russian satellite data, which show pingos—they appear as small mounds—in the exact positions where the craters later formed...."

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by BMAONE23 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:47 am

Could also be Zodanga marching toward Helium 8-)

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by kellogg » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:42 pm

Maybe it's the alien miners from Alnilam in pursuit of Lt. Cmdr Christopher Draper and Friday.... :wink:

Scott Kellogg

(Or maybe, I've just watched "Robinson Crusoe On Mars" too many times...) :roll:

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by DavidLeodis » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:43 pm

It's quite an intriguing feature.

I wonder if anyone knows of a link to the individual frames used to compile the animation as there seems to be 5 frames that are then reversed but I'm unsure of that.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Evenstar » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:38 pm

geckzilla wrote:
Evenstar wrote:I thought one of the orbiters around Mars was in a polar orbit to cover the entire planet? I still don't like fuzzy pictures several years old.
Go outside and angrily shake your fist at the sky, then. Earth's atmosphere likes to vacillate and blur ground-based imagery. These are actually very good amateur images of Mars despite being a few years old. An image taken tomorrow will look very much the same.
Shaking fist angrily...at Earth and at Mars mapping ;)

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Donnageddon » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:33 pm

This guy.

Image

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by bactame » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:26 am

A snowstorm of carbon dioxide flakes.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by geckzilla » Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:49 am

Thanks for posting this, Wayne (and the rest of your post). I have to say that while these are more visually appealing overall, the cloud of [something] is easier to see in the image chosen for today's APOD, and that's what's important.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by geckzilla » Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:09 am

Let's assume that it's a meteorite impact. If it were, would the dust cloud actually look like this? How large would the meteorite have to be to create such a large plume? Would it leave a smoldering crater and would that then be observable as a nice, bright source in infrared?

Similar argument goes for a volcanic eruption, which would likely leave a heat signature. One wonders if any such observations were attempted.

My vote was for winds / dust storm.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by wjaeschke » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:19 am

Astronomy is full of old, fuzzy pictures :)

But, here's a page where I posted RGB images that corresponded to the green-light frames used for the animation in today's APOD. I noted in the original post that the "anomaly" appeared brighter at shorter wavelengths, so I made the original green light image to send to my colleagues to see that the feature rotated with the planet (thus eliminating the possibility of a dust mote, hot pixels, etc.)

http://exosky.net/exosky/?p=1700

and here's one of the best images showing the plume (this is a "prettyfied" version).

Image

The plume is visible on the lower lower left, coming over the limb.

Regards,

Wayne

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by geckzilla » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:27 am

Evenstar wrote:I thought one of the orbiters around Mars was in a polar orbit to cover the entire planet? I still don't like fuzzy pictures several years old.
Go outside and angrily shake your fist at the sky, then. Earth's atmosphere likes to vacillate and blur ground-based imagery. These are actually very good amateur images of Mars despite being a few years old. An image taken tomorrow will look very much the same.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Evenstar » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:44 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Evenstar wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:The only huge waste of money now is the ISS, which returns little on its investment.
Why not outfit the ISS for journeys to the Moon and on to Mars? Or is even its engineering designed with a lifespan that cannot be extended like the Space Shuttle which Congress simply gave up on for funding and unlike the B52 which the military has never given up on.

The ISS is like the foundation of a solar system spaceship so let's give up on it now and let it go crash into the sea somewhere. Pathetic humans!
It has no real propulsion system, and it's not designed for one. It would fall apart. It's not designed to be anything other than an orbiter.

We have little reason to send humans around the Solar System. If that changes, we are capable of designing craft optimized for travel.
You would add the propulsion systems needed but I think I understand what I missed seeing that would be quite complicated. Even in a vacuum if one wanted to move a complex mass it all has to move at the same time or break apart at weak points--no?

I agree with you though but they just can't build robotic craft fast enough for me. The one-way trip to Mars in just a few years now at its earliest will be quite the show...

I thought one of the orbiters around Mars was in a polar orbit to cover the entire planet? I still don't like fuzzy pictures several years old.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:11 pm

Evenstar wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:The only huge waste of money now is the ISS, which returns little on its investment.
Why not outfit the ISS for journeys to the Moon and on to Mars? Or is even its engineering designed with a lifespan that cannot be extended like the Space Shuttle which Congress simply gave up on for funding and unlike the B52 which the military has never given up on.

The ISS is like the foundation of a solar system spaceship so let's give up on it now and let it go crash into the sea somewhere. Pathetic humans!
It has no real propulsion system, and it's not designed for one. It would fall apart. It's not designed to be anything other than an orbiter.

We have little reason to send humans around the Solar System. If that changes, we are capable of designing craft optimized for travel.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Evenstar » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:04 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:The only huge waste of money now is the ISS, which returns little on its investment.
Why not outfit the ISS for journeys to the Moon and on to Mars? Or is even its engineering designed with a lifespan that cannot be extended like the Space Shuttle which Congress simply gave up on for funding and unlike the B52 which the military has never given up on.

The ISS is like the foundation of a solar system spaceship so let's give up on it now and let it go crash into the sea somewhere. Pathetic humans!

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by geckzilla » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:52 pm

Evenstar wrote:Come ON! What is the point of displaying fuzzy pictures of Mars dating back several plus years today with all the assets in orbit? Really disappointed this time.
The orbiters haven't imaged the phenomenon in question.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Evenstar » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:51 pm

Come ON! What is the point of displaying fuzzy pictures of Mars dating back several plus years today with all the assets in orbit? Really disappointed this time.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Symbology » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:47 pm

I would guess that it is a result of the sun thawing a large deposit of water (or other) ice beneath the surface in a vast pocket. Every now and then the gas given off by this cause the ground over the pocket to swell up and eventually collapse, giving off a rush of methane or hydrogen that blows dust particles into the atmosphere.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by geckzilla » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:45 pm

quigley wrote:While I very much doubt the existence of life "out there", especially life in a form we can recognize, there is nothing wasteful about gathering knowledge that enriches our understanding and which may, indeed, end up bettering the life of mankind in some way we cannot now imagine.
Indeed. And it actually costs a lot less than people think it does. And most missions have a very high return rate for what is invested in them. We can throw links like this and this all day but whatever most people imagine in their heads is still more powerful than facts.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by quigley » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:23 pm

While I very much doubt the existence of life "out there", especially life in a form we can recognize, there is nothing wasteful about gathering knowledge that enriches our understanding and which may, indeed, end up bettering the life of mankind in some way we cannot now imagine.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by BillBixby » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:19 pm

Thank you for both links, and plastering a smile onto my face. :)

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Ron-Astro Pharmacist » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:46 pm

Dust perhaps?

"..when the dust load is high enough, the heating induced by the
dust can produce thermal inversions similar to a stratosphere"

http://www.slac.stanford.edu/econf/C070 ... zalezG.pdf

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by othermoons » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:27 pm

Can these plumes be in anyway connected to the holes we see on Mars...?

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:19 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:
pacfandave wrote:Whatever it is, it is natural. There is no life on Mars or any other planet, moon, asteroid, or comet, or any other Solar System body or piece of debris that NASA has used as an excuse to launch billions of dollars into space. You need to focus your funds on greatly expanding the space station and on interstellar propulsion systems--space-warping, plasma, whatever--and give up this pie-in-the-sky search for life in our neighborhood.
But those Billions of Dollars aren't Launched into Space. The Dollars are Earned here by the scientists that design the probes and the Contractors that build the probes and the NASA people that launch the probes and manage the programs throughout their lifecycles. The only money that is launched into space is the equivalent sum of the now in use hardware of the probes and their associated delivery systems ... Silicon, Metal, propellant, Copper wire, Gold connectors, Perhaps some uranium for power or heat or both. The dollars involved remain in circulation on Earth
And there's no such thing as an "interstellar propulsion system" and probably never will be. That would truly be a waste of resources. And the systems that look for life on other planets and moons perform many other experiments, as well.

The only huge waste of money now is the ISS, which returns little on its investment.

Re: APOD: Unusual Plumes Above Mars (2015 Feb 24)

by BMAONE23 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:09 pm

pacfandave wrote:Whatever it is, it is natural. There is no life on Mars or any other planet, moon, asteroid, or comet, or any other Solar System body or piece of debris that NASA has used as an excuse to launch billions of dollars into space. You need to focus your funds on greatly expanding the space station and on interstellar propulsion systems--space-warping, plasma, whatever--and give up this pie-in-the-sky search for life in our neighborhood.
But those Billions of Dollars aren't Launched into Space. The Dollars are Earned here by the scientists that design the probes and the Contractors that build the probes and the NASA people that launch the probes and manage the programs throughout their lifecycles. The only money that is launched into space is the equivalent sum of the now in use hardware of the probes and their associated delivery systems ... Silicon, Metal, propellant, Copper wire, Gold connectors, Perhaps some uranium for power or heat or both. The dollars involved remain in circulation on Earth

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