APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:34 pm

MrMak wrote:Second, I wonder about that curious break in the cloud pattern in the Pacific positioned above the moon. I’ve been looking at satellite photos for decades and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a cloud break that was so artificial looking, made up of right angles and rectangles.

I presumed that this shadow, cast on (Earth) clouds above the Moon was from the Space Station.
The ISS isn't large enough to cast an umbral shadow. It's just a cloud pattern, albeit a rather odd one.

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by MrMak » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:24 pm

Second, I wonder about that curious break in the cloud pattern in the Pacific positioned above the moon. I’ve been looking at satellite photos for decades and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a cloud break that was so artificial looking, made up of right angles and rectangles.

I presumed that this shadow, cast on (Earth) clouds above the Moon was from the Space Station.

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by alter-ego » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:23 am

neufer wrote:
Lometron wrote:
There is something I don't understand
See above : http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php? ... 50#p246790
Lometron wrote: ...
The NASA says that the moon was new on the 16th July. But it's not enough: During a new moon, the moon should appear under or above the earth.
If the moon is in front of the earth, it means there is a solar eclipse. But there was no solar eclipse on the 16th of July. ( the last solar eclipse was on the 20th of March and the next one will be on the 13th of September)

Is this picture real?
Did I write something wrong above?
The Moon and DSCOVR are indeed south of the ecliptic plane (geocentric ecliptic coordinates) by almost ~4.5°. So, assuming orbital symmetry, DSCOVR's halo orbit takes the craft north and south of the ecliptic by at least this much. It may be similar to SOHO's "orbital" motion - highly elliptical in two projected planes: the ecliptic (XY) plane and the plane perpendicular to it (YZ).
SOHO orbital insertion & halo orbit
SOHO orbital insertion & halo orbit
BTW Art, thanks for your helpful timely response.

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by pferkul » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:55 pm

Since people so "enjoyed" the cross-eyed 3-D image of Pluto from yesterday, here is a 3-D movie I made from the images taken by NASA's Deep Space Climate Observatory. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3KJI1HVx_k
Earth-moon-3d.jpg

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by neufer » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:40 pm

Lometron wrote:
There is something I don't understand
See above : http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php? ... 50#p246790

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by Lometron » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:07 pm

There is something I don't understand:

The picture was taken from a craft placed on the L1 Lagrange point. So the earth, the craft and the sun are on the same line.
We can see the moon on the earth. So the earth, the moon and the craft are on the same line.

So the earth, the moon and the sun are aligned.

The NASA says that the moon was new on the 16th July. But it's not enough: During a new moon, the moon should appear under or above the earth.
If the moon is in front of the earth, it means there is a solar eclipse. But there was no solar eclipse on the 16th of July. ( the last solar eclipse was on the 20th of March and the next one will be on the 13th of September)

Is this picture real?
Did I write something wrong above?

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:57 am

hoohaw wrote:
alter-ego wrote:
jambo wrote:I thought some one would have corrected the discussion by now--it's the repeat of Friday's APOD, rather than Saturday's view of Mars...
I'm not sure what your saying. Friday's and Saturday's APODs are distinct; Earth and Mars respectively. Having issues with links maybe?
I have looked repeatedly all day and found NO Mars page, just repeat of previous day's comments. Weird! And I wanted to make a brilliant Mars comment, too!
Yeah, the "Discuss" link on the Saturday APOD points to the wrong discussion (this one). But it shouldn't be too hard to find the Mars image discussion by looking at the parent forum for this one. If you need help, look here.

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by hoohaw » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:32 pm

alter-ego wrote:
jambo wrote:I thought some one would have corrected the discussion by now--it's the repeat of Friday's APOD, rather than Saturday's view of Mars...
I'm not sure what your saying. Friday's and Saturday's APODs are distinct; Earth and Mars respectively. Having issues with links maybe?
I have looked repeatedly all day and found NO Mars page, just repeat of previous day's comments. Weird! And I wanted to make a brilliant Mars comment, too!

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by alter-ego » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:56 pm

owlice wrote:alter-ego, the "Discuss" link on the APOD page points to the wrong discussion, is all; for today's APOD, it points to yesterday's discussion.
I didn't see that, but I noticed that on the Curiosity main page, if you back-arrow to get to Earth, you go to Pluto instead (skips a day).

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by alter-ego » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:49 pm

Remo wrote:Almost, but not quite. Indeed, the Moon's right edge is green and the left edge is purple because of the time delay in between camera exposures; however, the Earth's right edge is blue because we are looking at the edge of the atmosphere ( http://www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery ... 20073.html ). The Earth's right side edge would be blue too, except for the fact that it is in darkness.

The thing is that the Moon is moving with respect to the camera, but the Earth is fixed (it does rotate slightly, however). This is because the Deep Space Climate Observatory satellite orbits at the L1 Lagrange Point: Basically a stable orbit directly between the Earth at the sun. Because the camera is fixed with respect to the Earth, you get the same big ball in the same place each time. Thank you (almost) President Al Gore.

As an aside, I find it interesting that the satellite's position on July 16th was not quite in perfect alignment. This is evidence by both the Moon and the Earth having a dark edge on the right side. Also interesting is that only this slight misalignment/dark edge allowed the green edge artifact to show up. The green filter was shot first. By the time the blue and red filters were shot, the Moon had moved towards the right and those images just recorded black thus allowing the green tint image of the earth below to be superimposed on top of the black Moon edge creating the green edge effect.
Both the Earth and Moon are 99% illuminated .
DSCOVR is not at the exactly at L1 - it is "orbiting" nominally about it in a halo / Lissajou orbit. If we define the L1 point to be exactly on a line connecting the Earth and Sun, then the DSCOVER-Earth line is off by ≈ 11.5°. This puts the craft about 200,000 miles (325,000km) from an ideal single-point L1 location. Also, in the time-lapse video, the Moon was directly between DSCOVR and Earth at about 22:00UT, Jul 16. New Moon was 1:24UT the same day, so the Moon was already 20½ hours old. These related factors are what's behind the 99% illumination fraction, thus the darker limb edge(s).

In fact the red filter was used first, and the green filter last. The green edge logically follows from the direction the moon is traveling (to the right). This is also described here.

I recreated this event using Stellarium. It took a little time because I had to create DSCOVR's orbital location (but not the actual orbit as there are no elements available and the halo orbit is complicated). Anyway, from this simulation I determined where the craft was wrt the L1 point location.
Stellarium Simulation - DSCOVR, Jul 16, 19:50UT + 5 Hrs
Stellarium Simulation - DSCOVR, Jul 16, 19:50UT + 5 Hrs
DSCOVR Moon-Earth View from L1_2.gif (3.11 MiB) Viewed 11845 times

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by owlice » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:46 pm

alter-ego, the "Discuss" link on the APOD page points to the wrong discussion, is all; for today's APOD, it points to yesterday's discussion.

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by alter-ego » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:34 pm

jambo wrote:I thought some one would have corrected the discussion by now--it's the repeat of Friday's APOD, rather than Saturday's view of Mars...
I'm not sure what your saying. Friday's and Saturday's APODs are distinct; Earth and Mars respectively. Having issues with links maybe?

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by jambo » Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:09 pm

I thought some one would have corrected the discussion by now--it's the repeat of Friday's APOD, rather than Saturday's view of Mars...

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by chuckster » Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:42 pm

keeper of the faith wrote:You can easily see this is not the Moon for yourself. All you need to do is go out and look at the real Moon. Looks nothing like this. :x
Keeper of what faith ?

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by Eleanor S » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:48 pm

Above and to the left of the moon, within the circle of the earth, is a geometric shape. What is it?

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by BMAONE23 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:21 pm

Take a "White" piece of paper and cut a Dime sized hole in it. Hold it at arms length so that the Moon is in the "Hole" in the paper. Now shine a White Light on the paper and look just how "DARK" the moon really looks

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:47 pm

Ann wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:Our eye/brain system creates its own white and dark levels which are context dependent. Not only brightness, but color adapts. The Moon looks bright white because our brains tell us that's what it is. It only looks less than white if we have a brighter reference object... which is seldom the case.
The Moon looks bright white because our brains tell us that it is? That is a strange explanation.
But it's the case. Color is a physiological property, not a physical one. Color is a combination of both hue and brightness (that is, we see exactly the same hue, presented at two brightness levels, as distinctly different colors). And our perception of color is relative and adaptive. Put on a pair of colored glasses, and within a few minutes you'll be seeing things substantially the same as you did without the glasses.

The Moon is a low saturation object, and we see low saturation objects as neutral hued in the absence of anything to compare them to. And against a dark sky, our brain chooses "white" rather than "gray", because there is nothing to compare it to. This effect commonly disappears in photographs, because we usually see the surrounds of the image, providing a reference for both brightness and hue.

This APOD provides a color reference for the Moon- both hue and intensity- so we get a more accurate representation of its actual nature than we can ever get against the night sky.

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by neufer » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:03 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
ErnieM wrote:
From current arsenal of scientific instruments available, is it possible to date the huge impact craters on the near side of the moon? This will gives us an estimate of when the dark lunar maria side became permanently facing the Earth. What is the chance that these massive lunar impacts coincided with the one that wiped out the dinosaurs?
Not even close. The craters on the Moon were nearly all produced over a fairly short period early in the formation of the Solar System, a period called the Late Heavy Bombardment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schreibersite wrote: <<Schreibersite is generally a rare iron nickel phosphide mineral, (Fe,Ni)3P, though common in iron-nickel meteorites. The only known occurrence of the mineral on Earth is located on Disko Island in Greenland. Its color ranges from bronze to brass yellow to silver white. It was named after the Austrian scientist Carl Franz Anton Ritter von Schreibers (1775–1852), who was one of the first to describe it from iron meteorites.

Schreibersite is reported from the Magura Meteorite, Arva-(present name – Orava), Slovak Republic; the Sikhote-Alin Meteorite in eastern Russia; the São Julião de Moreira Meteorite, Viana do Castelo, Portugal; and numerous other locations including the Moon.

In 2007, researchers reported that schreibersite and other meteoric phosphorus bearing minerals may be the ultimate source for the phosphorus that is so important for life on Earth. In 2013, researchers reported that they had successfully produced pyrophosphite, a possible precursor to pyrophosphate, the molecule associated with ATP, a co-enzyme central to energy metabolism in all life on Earth. Their experiment consisted of subjecting a sample of schreibersite to a warm, acidic environment typically found in association with volcanic activity, activity that was far more common on the primordial Earth. They hypothesized that their experiment might represent what they termed "chemical life", a stage of evolution which may have led to the emergence of fully biological life as exists today.>>

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by hoohaw » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:05 am

I dunno, could of sworn this was Mars.....

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by Ann » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:02 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
MarkBour wrote:So, if we remove the Earth from behind the Moon, it looks brighter, and perhaps this is how the Moon "really looks" in the void of space from a spacecraft. But it still doesn't seem nearly bright enough. Why doesn't it look this way to us on Earth? The Moon on a dark night looks quite radiant and white when high in the sky. Is this image at a lower brightness setting than what our eyes would have seen if we were sitting on DSCOVR?
Our eye/brain system creates its own white and dark levels which are context dependent. Not only brightness, but color adapts. The Moon looks bright white because our brains tell us that's what it is. It only looks less than white if we have a brighter reference object... which is seldom the case.
The Moon looks bright white because our brains tell us that it is? That is a strange explanation.

Unlike the Earth, which is multicolored - mostly white, dark blue and grayish-brown - the Moon is grayish-brown all over, about the same hue as dry earth soil. Some parts of the lunar surface are darker and others are brighter, but they are all more or less the same grayish-brown hue. Therefore, when we look at the Moon on a clear night when it is high in the sky, we don't see color. If we were looking at the Earth while standing on the Moon we would see color, because the Earth is multicolored.
Yuri Gagarin, the first person in space, described the Earth like this:

What beauty. I saw clouds and their light shadows on the distant dear earth.... The water looked like darkish, slightly gleaming spots.... When I watched the horizon, I saw the abrupt, contrasting transition from the earth's light-colored surface to the absolutely black sky. I enjoyed the rich color spectrum of the earth. It is surrounded by a light blue aureole that gradually darkens, becoming turquiose, dark blue, violet, and finally coal black.
But because the the monocolored Moon doesn't offer us any color sensations, we can only judge its brightness, not its hue. And the Moon looks overwhelmingly bright against the black night sky. The magnitude of the full Moon is -12.74. No other object in the night sky comes close to being that bright.

I would say that it is the overwhelming contrast between the illuminated lunar surface and the blackness of the space that makes the Moon look white to us. But since the Earth is brighter than the Moon, mostly because of highly reflective white clouds, the Moon would look "a darker shade of bright" and also probably a little reddish if we could see it in front of the bright multicolored and bluish disk of the Earth.

Ann

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:47 am

ErnieM wrote:From current arsenal of scientific instruments available, is it possible to date the huge impact craters on the near side of the moon? This will gives us an estimate of when the dark lunar maria side became permanently facing the Earth. What is the chance that these massive lunar impacts coincided with the one that wiped out the dinosaurs?
Not even close. The craters on the Moon were nearly all produced over a fairly short period early in the formation of the Solar System, a period called the Late Heavy Bombardment.

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by ErnieM » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:19 am

Art Neuendorffer wrote:
MadMan wrote:
wolfie138 wrote:
the farside is mostly devoid of dark lunar maria that sprawl across the Moon's perpetual Earth-facing hemisphere

why is that?
I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps the Earth suffered a huge impact, and some of the debris from the Earth impacted the Moon, creating the maria?
It's the mass anomaly from the impact that eventually resulted in the dark lunar maria side permanently facing the Earth.
From current arsenal of scientific instruments available, is it possible to date the huge impact craters on the near side of the moon? This will gives us an estimate of when the dark lunar maria side became permanently facing the Earth. What is the chance that these massive lunar impacts coincided with the one that wiped out the dinosaurs?

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by Remo » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:18 am

Ann wrote:
maurizio52 wrote:This picture looks like an artifact. The moon is defocused while the earth is sharp ( I think that field depth could not be an issue ;-) ) and the right side of the moon shows green halo of unknown origin...
Best regards.
APOD Robot wrote:
Slight color shifts are visible around the lunar edge, an artifact of the Moon's motion through the field caused by combining the camera's separate exposures taken in quick succession through different color filters.
It's probably not just the Moon that is affected by the color shifts. The Moon's left edge is slightly purple, and the same color effect can be seen along the Earth's left edge. The Moon's right edge is green, and the Earth's might be too, but that is hidden one way or another against the blackness of space.

Ann
Almost, but not quite. Indeed, the Moon's right edge is green and the left edge is purple because of the time delay in between camera exposures; however, the Earth's right edge is blue because we are looking at the edge of the atmosphere ( http://www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery ... 20073.html ). The Earth's right side edge would be blue too, except for the fact that it is in darkness.

The thing is that the Moon is moving with respect to the camera, but the Earth is fixed (it does rotate slightly, however). This is because the Deep Space Climate Observatory satellite orbits at the L1 Lagrange Point: Basically a stable orbit directly between the Earth at the sun. Because the camera is fixed with respect to the Earth, you get the same big ball in the same place each time. Thank you (almost) President Al Gore.

As an aside, I find it interesting that the satellite's position on July 16th was not quite in perfect alignment. This is evidence by both the Moon and the Earth having a dark edge on the right side. Also interesting is that only this slight misalignment/dark edge allowed the green edge artifact to show up. The green filter was shot first. By the time the blue and red filters were shot, the Moon had moved towards the right and those images just recorded black thus allowing the green tint image of the earth below to be superimposed on top of the black Moon edge creating the green edge effect.

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:48 am

MarkBour wrote:So, if we remove the Earth from behind the Moon, it looks brighter, and perhaps this is how the Moon "really looks" in the void of space from a spacecraft. But it still doesn't seem nearly bright enough. Why doesn't it look this way to us on Earth? The Moon on a dark night looks quite radiant and white when high in the sky. Is this image at a lower brightness setting than what our eyes would have seen if we were sitting on DSCOVR?
Our eye/brain system creates its own white and dark levels which are context dependent. Not only brightness, but color adapts. The Moon looks bright white because our brains tell us that's what it is. It only looks less than white if we have a brighter reference object... which is seldom the case.

Re: APOD: Full Moon, Full Earth (2015 Aug 07)

by MarkBour » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:36 am

Just the Moon in Blackness
Just the Moon in Blackness
DSCOVRExcerpt50pct20150716.jpg (65.12 KiB) Viewed 22398 times
So, if we remove the Earth from behind the Moon, it looks brighter, and perhaps this is how the Moon "really looks" in the void of space from a spacecraft. But it still doesn't seem nearly bright enough. Why doesn't it look this way to us on Earth? The Moon on a dark night looks quite radiant and white when high in the sky. Is this image at a lower brightness setting than what our eyes would have seen if we were sitting on DSCOVR?

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