APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by Nitpicker » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:13 pm

Thanks bystander. Most satisfying.

UdeA: Impact on the Moon!

by bystander » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:47 pm

LaLoma[1].png
Image of the explosion on the Moon during the beginning of the totality of the eclipse
of January 21, 2019, captured by the camera of the LaLoma Observatory in San Vicente
Ferrer (Antioquia, Colombia). (Jonathan Ospina, Mauricio Gaviria, Sergio López)

Impact on the Moon!

Astronomia Universidad de Antioquia | 2019 Jan 31

A group of professional and amateur astronomers from the Dominican Republic and Colombia recorded an impact on the Moon during the last total eclipse and now submitted a scientific analysis of their images.

Location, Orbit and Energy of a Meteoroid Impacting the Moon
During the Lunar Eclipse of January 21, 2019
~ Jorge I. Zuluaga et al

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:50 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:28 pm My thanks to JohnD, Mark, Art and Chris for the interesting responses to my crater detectablity in IR question.
Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:23 am
neufer wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:18 am
  • That cuts both ways.
Rock being a poor conductor also means that the hot (partially molten) rock will quickly radiate off from its top surface thereby covering these hot pieces with a thin poorly conducting cool layer that will rapidly make them very hard to see in the IR.
Yes... but this presumes there is any hot rock at the bottom of the hole in the first place. I think that the the molten material is immediately ejected, and there is a shockwave which propagates somewhat deeper at supersonic speed, breaking up and flinging out big chunks, and what's left after a second or two is a hole with the bottom about the same temperature as the rock at that depth was already at.

It's also worth noting that radiation is the least efficient way of cooling something off, so I don't know that most materials will cool all that quickly on the Moon, at least not compared with the Earth.
So then the main area of the newly formed crater won't be hot for long at all (except perhaps the central point of impact?) but what about the ejecta blanketing the area surrounding the new crater? Won't that glow for quite some time?

Bruce
The first thing that gets ejected is just molten microscopic droplets, which cool before they even land. That's where most of the impact energy goes. That's followed by bigger pieces, but those are just being ejected by the shock wave, with nowhere near enough energy to heat up significantly. The macroscopic ejecta is cold even as it leaves the newly forming crater.

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by BDanielMayfield » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:28 pm

My thanks to JohnD, Mark, Art and Chris for the interesting responses to my crater detectablity in IR question.
Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:23 am
neufer wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:18 am
MarkBour wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:02 am
As deep as the rest of this discussion is getting, I'm guessing that an impact crater will start out quite hot and partially molten, though perhaps in some cases not all that much (if most of the material vaporizes). Then it would begin to equiliibrate with its surrounding lunar regolith while radiating some heat into space. I would think this would follow a Newtonian cooling curve. Of course the constant for the equation is the big question. I would have guessed that you could tell the crater was hot for days. It was a wild guess. I did find one rather different article that might help. It gives hope that one could detect heat in this brand-new crater for a lot longer than my guess.
  • That cuts both ways.
Rock being a poor conductor also means that the hot (partially molten) rock will quickly radiate off from its top surface thereby covering these hot pieces with a thin poorly conducting cool layer that will rapidly make them very hard to see in the IR.
Yes... but this presumes there is any hot rock at the bottom of the hole in the first place. I think that the the molten material is immediately ejected, and there is a shockwave which propagates somewhat deeper at supersonic speed, breaking up and flinging out big chunks, and what's left after a second or two is a hole with the bottom about the same temperature as the rock at that depth was already at.

It's also worth noting that radiation is the least efficient way of cooling something off, so I don't know that most materials will cool all that quickly on the Moon, at least not compared with the Earth.
So then the main area of the newly formed crater won't be hot for long at all (except perhaps the central point of impact?) but what about the ejecta blanketing the area surrounding the new crater? Won't that glow for quite some time?

Bruce

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by JohnD » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:03 pm

There, I'm told, and will say no more.
I'm educated, me, and thank you for it!

Except, please, NOT "The Blood Red Moon Wolf's lair"? (See viewtopic.php?f=9&t=39101, post 2)
John

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:54 pm

JohnD wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:49 am neufer, I'm glad to accept that the albedo of the Earth from the Moon is 40 times the opposite, but still. 40 times a very small number is still a very small number. To repeat my analogy of before, ever tried warming your hands in moonlight?
Albedo is entirely the wrong way to be thinking about this. Albedo is a measure of reflectivity- the Earth reflects about 30% of the light that hits it, the Moon reflects between about 10% and 50%, depending upon phase. What's at issue here isn't reflectivity, but emissivity. Both bodies are warm- much warmer than the cosmos- so they are radiating lots of IR. The Moon radiates significant heat towards the Earth, but we don't feel it on the ground because we are blanketed by a much warmer atmosphere. But from above the atmosphere you could aim an IR thermometer at the Moon and note how warm it is compared to the rest of the sky. On the Moon, however, the radiant heat of the Earth makes it right to the surface. You could indeed warm your hands by earthlight (just as an astronaut in orbit above the Earth could warm hers by moonlight).

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by neufer » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:48 pm

JohnD wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:49 am
neufer, I'm glad to accept that the albedo of the Earth from the Moon is 40 times the opposite, but still. 40 times a very small number is still a very small number. To repeat my analogy of before, ever tried warming your hands in moonlight?
We're not talking about warming my cold ~300K hands by Moonlight.
We're talking about warming a ~26K starlit Moon by Earthlight.
JohnD wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:49 am
Mark's point about the low heat conductivity of rock is valuable, but then we have Chris' that most of the heated regolith and rock will have been vaporised and ejected, leaving a crater base at near 'normal' temperature.
Chris's scenario is no doubt more realistic than Mark's. But even given Mark's scenario Mark's logic is flawed because his heated regolith and rock are quickly covered over with a cool sheath of low heat conductive rock.
JohnD wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:49 am
But we may see it! Phil Plait, in the link posted by neufer, wrote that a colleague hopes to use the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter to image it, and is seeking other observations to narrow down the location.
The new crater (the Blood Red Wolf Moon's lair?) will no doubt be found ... just not in the IR.

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by JohnD » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:49 am

neufer, I'm glad to accept that the albedo of the Earth from the Moon is 40 times the opposite, but still. 40 times a very small number is still a very small number. To repeat my analogy of before, ever tried warming your hands in moonlight?

Mark's point about the low heat conductivity of rock is valuable, but then we have Chris' that most of the heated regolith and rock will have been vaporised and ejected, leaving a crater base at near 'normal' temperature. So it seems that exciting as it is, a search for a glowing crater is a bit Hollywood.

But we may see it! The Bad Astronomer, Phil Plait, in the link posted by neufer, wrote that a colleague hopes to use the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter to image it, and is seeking other observations to narrow down the location. Watch this space?

And, isn't this an interesting conversation? Much more so, I dare to say, than emoting on the undoubted beauty of astronomical images.
John

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by Nitpicker » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:27 am

Very shallow indeed. :)

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by alter-ego » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:14 am

Nitpicker wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:19 am Thanks Chris. It looks a lot like the meteor in the Matterhorn APOD from yesterday, might be a Delta Cancrid. However, it seems that the orbit of this shower is not known and hence also its velocity. So whether or not the "moon struck" meteoroid might also have been a Delta Cancrid is something of a moot point. If it was, I suppose it must have struck at a very shallow angle.
At the impact time and coordinates, the δ-Cancrid radiant was 16° below the site's horizon, so this shower is likely not a candidate source.

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by Nitpicker » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:19 am

Thanks Chris. It looks a lot like the meteor in the Matterhorn APOD from yesterday, might be a Delta Cancrid. However, it seems that the orbit of this shower is not known and hence also its velocity. So whether or not the "moon struck" meteoroid might also have been a Delta Cancrid is something of a moot point. If it was, I suppose it must have struck at a very shallow angle.

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:23 am

neufer wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:18 am
MarkBour wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:02 am
As deep as the rest of this discussion is getting, I'm guessing that an impact crater will start out quite hot and partially molten, though perhaps in some cases not all that much (if most of the material vaporizes). Then it would begin to equiliibrate with its surrounding lunar regolith while radiating some heat into space. I would think this would follow a Newtonian cooling curve. Of course the constant for the equation is the big question. I would have guessed that you could tell the crater was hot for days. It was a wild guess. I did find one rather different article that might help. It gives hope that one could detect heat in this brand-new crater for a lot longer than my guess.
https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1997/of97-724/lavacool.html
Nature of the Lava Cooling

Rock is a poor conductor of heat, so that a lava slab 10 m thick is known to be hot for years, if it is [solidly] intact and not fractured, even if its surface is continually cooled by water. Generally, however, lava is fractured; joints are formed during the abrupt cooling that has taken place.
  • That cuts both ways.
Rock being a poor conductor also means that the hot (partially molten) rock will quickly radiate off from its top surface thereby covering these hot pieces with a thin poorly conducting cool layer that will rapidly make them very hard to see in the IR.
Yes... but this presumes there is any hot rock at the bottom of the hole in the first place. I think that the the molten material is immediately ejected, and there is a shockwave which propagates somewhat deeper at supersonic speed, breaking up and flinging out big chunks, and what's left after a second or two is a hole with the bottom about the same temperature as the rock at that depth was already at.

It's also worth noting that radiation is the least efficient way of cooling something off, so I don't know that most materials will cool all that quickly on the Moon, at least not compared with the Earth.

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by neufer » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:18 am

MarkBour wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:02 am
As deep as the rest of this discussion is getting, I'm guessing that an impact crater will start out quite hot and partially molten, though perhaps in some cases not all that much (if most of the material vaporizes). Then it would begin to equiliibrate with its surrounding lunar regolith while radiating some heat into space. I would think this would follow a Newtonian cooling curve. Of course the constant for the equation is the big question. I would have guessed that you could tell the crater was hot for days. It was a wild guess. I did find one rather different article that might help. It gives hope that one could detect heat in this brand-new crater for a lot longer than my guess.
https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1997/of97-724/lavacool.html
Nature of the Lava Cooling

Rock is a poor conductor of heat, so that a lava slab 10 m thick is known to be hot for years, if it is [solidly] intact and not fractured, even if its surface is continually cooled by water. Generally, however, lava is fractured; joints are formed during the abrupt cooling that has taken place.
  • That cuts both ways.
Rock being a poor conductor also means that the hot (partially molten) rock will quickly radiate off from its top surface thereby covering these hot pieces with a thin poorly conducting cool layer that will rapidly make them very hard to see in the IR.

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:13 am

MarkBour wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:02 am As deep as the rest of this discussion is getting, I'm guessing that an impact crater will start out quite hot and partially molten, though perhaps in some cases not all that much (if most of the material vaporizes). Then it would begin to equiliibrate with its surrounding lunar regolith while radiating some heat into space. I would think this would follow a Newtonian cooling curve. Of course the constant for the equation is the big question. I would have guessed that you could tell the crater was hot for days. It was a wild guess. I did find one rather different article that might help. It gives hope that one could detect heat in this brand-new crater for a lot longer than my guess.
https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1997/of97-724/lavacool.html
Nature of the Lava Cooling

Rock is a poor conductor of heat, so that a lava slab 10 m thick is known to be hot for years, if it is [solidly] intact and not fractured, even if its surface is continually cooled by water. Generally, however, lava is fractured; joints are formed during the abrupt cooling that has taken place.
In fact, I think there is virtually no molten material left in a crater at all. The molten material is vaporized and ejected. I think the crater is cool and the underlying rock is not much changed from its original temperature.

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by MarkBour » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:02 am

As deep as the rest of this discussion is getting, I'm guessing that an impact crater will start out quite hot and partially molten, though perhaps in some cases not all that much (if most of the material vaporizes). Then it would begin to equiliibrate with its surrounding lunar regolith while radiating some heat into space. I would think this would follow a Newtonian cooling curve. Of course the constant for the equation is the big question. I would have guessed that you could tell the crater was hot for days. It was a wild guess. I did find one rather different article that might help. It gives hope that one could detect heat in this brand-new crater for a lot longer than my guess.
https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1997/of97-724/lavacool.html
Nature of the Lava Cooling

Rock is a poor conductor of heat, so that a lava slab 10 m thick is known to be hot for years, if it is [solidly] intact and not fractured, even if its surface is continually cooled by water. Generally, however, lava is fractured; joints are formed during the abrupt cooling that has taken place.

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by neufer » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:08 pm

JohnD wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:39 pm
But, neufer, the disc of the Earth will occupy a part of the Moon's sky only a slightly larger than the Moon as we see it. Vide the Apollo Earthrise pics. So at best, the Earth will be about as warming as the full Moon is at night.
The disc of the Earth will occupy a part of the Moon's sky about 16 times larger than the Moon's disc as we see it.
And the Earth's albedo is about 2.5 times that of the Moon...so a factor of about 40.

However, most of the Earth's heating comes from it's infrared radiation (even at Full Earth).
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:04 pm
JohnD wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:39 pm
Ok, so the lowest temperature that the Moon's surface gets to is 100K. That's -193C, and if I may say so bl&&dy cold!
100 K is -173° C. Not quite as cold as you suggest ;-)
The minimum near side equatorial lunar temperature is 100 K.

However, there are parts of the Moon that hardly ever (directly) observe either the Sun or the Earth.
(Presumably, these are primarily in radiative equilibrium with star light.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon wrote:
<<The Moon's axial tilt with respect to the ecliptic is only 1.5424°, much less than the 23.44° of Earth. From images taken by Clementine in 1994, it appears that four mountainous regions on the rim of Peary Crater at the Moon's north pole may remain illuminated for the entire lunar day, creating peaks of eternal light. No such regions exist at the south pole. Similarly, there are places that remain in permanent shadow at the bottoms of many polar craters, and these "craters of eternal darkness" are extremely cold: Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter measured the lowest summer temperatures in craters at the southern pole at 35 K (−238 °C) and just 26 K (−247 °C) close to the winter solstice in north polar Hermite Crater. This is the coldest temperature in the Solar System ever measured by a spacecraft, colder even than the surface of Pluto.>>

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:04 pm

JohnD wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:39 pm But, neufer, the disc of the Earth will occupy a part of the Moon's sky only a slightly larger than the Moon as we see it. Vide the Apollo Earthrise pics. So at best, the Earth will be about as warming as the full Moon is at night.
It doesn't matter what part of the sky it occupies. What matters is that it radiates electromagnetic energy from a certain distance, and that energy heats the surface of the Moon. The comparison between the Earth and Moon here is complex. The Moon is likely to be more warming on the Earth than vice versa, depending on its phase. The Earth's radiation doesn't change much between its night and day sides; the Moon's changes radically.
Ok, so the lowest temperature that the Moon's surface gets to is 100K. That's -193C, and if I may say so bl&&dy cold!
100 K is -173° C. Not quite as cold as you suggest ;-)

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by JohnD » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:39 pm

But, neufer, the disc of the Earth will occupy a part of the Moon's sky only a slightly larger than the Moon as we see it. Vide the Apollo Earthrise pics. So at best, the Earth will be about as warming as the full Moon is at night.

Ok, so the lowest temperature that the Moon's surface gets to is 100K. That's -193C, and if I may say so bl&&dy cold! We already have materials that superconduct if hotter than that!
JOhn

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by neufer » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:20 pm

JohnD wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:40 pm
For an impact in Lunar night time, the crater will radiate to the Cosmos at 3K, just above absolute zero.
  • The infrared radiation from the Earth for the near side Moon
    exceeds the the cosmic background radiation by a factor of about a million.

    The minimum near side equatorial lunar surface temperature of 100 K
    is in rough thermal equilibrium with the radiation it receives from the Earth (in infrared plus visible).

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by MarkBour » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:21 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:18 pm Catching the flash of one of these impacts is important for several reasons, but personally I'm more interested in the newly formed crater. I wonder how long it takes the lunar soil and rocks at the impact site to cool down to an undetectable temp? Seeing a brand new crater while it is still glowing in infrared -- now that would be something!

Bruce
I agree, that would be awesome. It would be pretty exciting for an astronaut living on the Moon to see one nearby, assuming the crater did not coincide with her spacesuit or moonbase wall. :-(

How long the crater would show itself with a heat signature is a great question, Bruce. I appreciate the answer and link that JohnD gave!

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by JohnD » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:40 pm

For an impact in Lunar night time, the crater will radiate to the Cosmos at 3K, just above absolute zero, and conduct to the parent rock at -35C (238K) a metre down. I'm too lazy to calculate how quickly it will cool down, but in the Lunar day time, the surface may be at more than 280C (553K) on the equator at Lunar noon, so much less contrast to detect, and then cool to less than -180C (93K) in the Lunar night. So I if the entire surface cools that quickly, a little patch will cool even quicker!

You want a go, BDaniel? Start here? https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... i032p06553 Thermal conductivity of Apollo 11 rock No. 10046 was 2.5(±0.5) × 10−6 cal/sec cm deg

JOhn

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by BDanielMayfield » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:18 pm

Catching the flash of one of these impacts is important for several reasons, but personally I'm more interested in the newly formed crater. I wonder how long it takes the lunar soil and rocks at the impact site to cool down to an undetectable temp? Seeing a brand new crater while it is still glowing in infrared -- now that would be something!

Bruce

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by neufer » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:52 pm

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/lunar/overview.html wrote:

About Lunar Impact Monitoring

Mission statement: Use Earth-based observations of the dark portion of the Moon to establish the rates and sizes of large meteoroids (greater than a few ounces in mass) striking the lunar surface. Observations are taken between New and 1st Quarter Moon and between Last Quarter and New Moon, when the solar illumination is between 10 and 55 percent. These conditions yield 10-12 observing nights per month.

Observing facility: Observations are conducted at NASA Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama at the Automated Lunar and Meteor Observatory (ALaMO). The facility consists of two observatory domes, a 15 meter tower with a roll-off roof, and an operations center with laboratory space. A second observatory in Chickamauga, Georgia (Walker County) was operational from September 15, 2007 to June 2011. The facility consists of a ground level building with a roll-off roof. This observatory was run remotely from Marshall Space Flight Center. A fourth 14 inch telescope was operated at New Mexico Skies Observatory from October 2011 to September 2012.

Meteor showers: It is well known that the Earth experiences meteor showers when it encounters the debris left behind by comets; so too does the Moon, though perhaps at not exactly the same time. On Earth these showers are capable of producing spectacular celestial fireworks displays, delighting the public. On the airless Moon, however, these showers are swarms of high energy projectiles, producing fireworks only when they strike the surface with tremendous force. During such times, the rate of shower meteoroids can greatly exceed that of the sporadic background rate and may pose a hazard to spacecraft. Looking for meteor shower impacts on the Moon at about the same time as they occur here on Earth will yield important data that can be fed into meteor shower forecasting models, which can then be used to predict times of greater meteoroid hazard in near-Earth space.

In designing a system to look for these impact flashes, we need to take into account two important considerations. First, we want to see as faint as possible, and secondly we want to see as much of the lunar dark side as we can. The first is important because faint flashes are generally produced by smaller meteoroids, and the smaller the meteoroid, the more there are of them. More meteoroids mean more flashes and hence better statistics on which to base improved models. We can also get more flashes by monitoring as much of the lunar surface as possible, as the number of observed hits is going to be directly proportional to the amount of area seen by our instrument. That’s why the second point is important. It turns out that a modestly-wide field optical system (one with a fast focal ratio) meets both of these criteria nicely. So we perform simultaneous observations of the Moon using two 14” telescopes.

We attach a Watec Ultimate H2 camera to each of our telescopes, and route the camera output into a Sony tape deck or Canopus video digitizer, which converts the video signal into a digital format that is stored on a hard disk. After an observing session, we look for flashes in the data. Our first impact was found by someone simply looking through a couple of hours of video. This can be quite tedious, however, and tired humans can easily miss a short impact flash, so custom computer software was developed to look for the flashes. If one is found, additional software is then used to extract detailed information on the flash -- its brightness as a function of time (light curve), where it was seen on the Moon, if it was due to a meteor shower, and so forth. Using this information, we can estimate the mass or size of the meteoroid. If it is a sporadic meteoroid, all we can do is put limits on the size, as its speed can range from 20 km/sec all the way up to 70 km/sec. If it is a shower meteoroid, then things are better because every member of a meteor shower moves with the same, known speed. This allows us to calculate a single, less uncertain size estimate..>>

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by orin stepanek » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:39 pm

Awesome photographic catch! 8-)

Re: APOD: Moon Struck (2019 Jan 25)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:37 pm

Ann wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:05 am I feel a bit stupid posting this after Nitpicker's smart comment, so I'll just say that it is fascinating to see an actual meteor impact on the Moon. It is cool, too, that it takes a lunar eclipse to actually see one - or at least it becomes so much easier to see what's going on on the lunar surface when the Moon is eclipsed.
Anybody with a telescope and a cheap video camera can record quite a few of these in any year. It doesn't require a lunar eclipse, it merely requires a Moon presenting a fair bit of shadowed surface during an active shower. Eclipses tend to be poor times to look for impacts, because they rarely coincide with meteor showers.

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