APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by Hyperborean » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:01 pm

Have we seen this with any other nebulae, ejecting different material at different times in its history?

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by BDanielMayfield » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:00 pm

TheZuke! wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:27 pm
MarkBour wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 pm
Back to the subject of the nebula NGC 7027, I wouldn't want to mess with helonium acid. If a molecule of it hit our spaceship, it would give away its proton, and it would damage the ship. But it depends on how much of it is around, or how much of it we needed to fly through, I guess.
Yeah, I hadn't figured on hydrogen embrittlement, it looks like I need to redesign the hull of my spacecraft to mitigate such damage.
As per Captain Jonathan Archer of the first Enterprize
polarize the hull plating!

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by TheZuke! » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:27 pm

MarkBour wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 pm
Back to the subject of the nebula NGC 7027, I wouldn't want to mess with helonium acid. If a molecule of it hit our spaceship, it would give away its proton, and it would damage the ship. But it depends on how much of it is around, or how much of it we needed to fly through, I guess.
Yeah, I hadn't figured on hydrogen embrittlement, it looks like I need to redesign the hull of my spacecraft to mitigate such damage.

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by Ann » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:00 am

BDanielMayfield wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:05 pm
MarkBour wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 pm
BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:15 pm

Interesting point Mark. Is there a chemist in the house?

I was trying to make it sound as awful as I could, while still being factual. Also, there's the fact that since it reacts with everything, it can also be neutralized by everything.

Cancel Red Alert.
He he. And now I feel bad for being a spoil-sport about it.
The red alert might be warranted, for all I know.

Here's one of the many examples of how space (even very near to home) messes with my intuition:
From Wikipedia's article on the Thermosphere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

The highly attenuated gas in this layer can reach 2,500 °C (4,530 °F) during the day. Despite the high temperature, an observer or object will experience cold temperatures in the thermosphere, because the extremely low density of gas (practically a hard vacuum) is insufficient for the molecules to conduct heat. A normal thermometer will read significantly below 0 °C (32 °F), at least at night, because the energy lost by thermal radiation would exceed the energy acquired from the atmospheric gas by direct contact.
I find this odd: Don't go flying around up in the thermosphere without some protection. Why? Because you'll quickly freeze to death up in that 2,500 °C air. That was hard for me to reconcile.
It's the fact that vacuum and near vacuum is such good thermal insulation. A good thermos bottle is basically just two nested bottles with vacuum in between them.
I think it's called heat conductivity or thermal conductivity. Certain kinds of heat gets transferred to you very effectively, like, for example, if you spill boiling hot water on yourself. The boiling water will transfer its heat to you very efficiently and give you burns.

But very rarefied gas won't transfer its heat to you at all, or so I believe. That's why you would quickly freeze to death in the million-degree intracluster gas of big galaxy clusters.

Ann

Double shielding around the Mentos!!

by neufer » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:45 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:05 pm
MarkBour wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 pm
I wouldn't want to mess with helonium acid. If a molecule of it hit our spaceship, it would give away its proton, and it would damage the ship. But it depends on how much of it is around, or how much of it we needed to fly through, I guess.
And we already know how to shield against acid clouds; just positively charge the hull.

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by BDanielMayfield » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:05 pm

MarkBour wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 pm
BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:15 pm
MarkBour wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:56 pm

As awful as it sounds, I would guess that the helonium acid is not any worse than ionized hydrogen is already.
Interesting point Mark. Is there a chemist in the house?

I was trying to make it sound as awful as I could, while still being factual. Also, there's the fact that since it reacts with everything, it can also be neutralized by everything.

Cancel Red Alert.
He he. And now I feel bad for being a spoil-sport about it.
The red alert might be warranted, for all I know.

Here's one of the many examples of how space (even very near to home) messes with my intuition:
From Wikipedia's article on the Thermosphere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

The highly attenuated gas in this layer can reach 2,500 °C (4,530 °F) during the day. Despite the high temperature, an observer or object will experience cold temperatures in the thermosphere, because the extremely low density of gas (practically a hard vacuum) is insufficient for the molecules to conduct heat. A normal thermometer will read significantly below 0 °C (32 °F), at least at night, because the energy lost by thermal radiation would exceed the energy acquired from the atmospheric gas by direct contact.
I find this odd: Don't go flying around up in the thermosphere without some protection. Why? Because you'll quickly freeze to death up in that 2,500 °C air. That was hard for me to reconcile.
It's the fact that vacuum and near vacuum is such good thermal insulation. A good thermos bottle is basically just two nested bottles with vacuum in between them.
Back to the subject of the nebula NGC 7027, I wouldn't want to mess with helonium acid. If a molecule of it hit our spaceship, it would give away its proton, and it would damage the ship. But it depends on how much of it is around, or how much of it we needed to fly through, I guess.
And we already know how to shield against acid clouds; just positively charge the hull.

Helonium = Hello, Dolly, at the Harmonia

by neufer » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:15 pm

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by MarkBour » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:15 pm
MarkBour wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:56 pm
BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:08 pm As if space travel wasn't hard enough, now there's the real possibility of running into a cloud of helonium (HeH+) gas, an acid so strong it will react with all other molecules :!: Yikes :shock: No material vessel can possibly contain it!

Another thing you learned in school that ain't true: Noble gases (like Helium) don't or can't form molecules. Turns out HeH was one of the first molecules ever to form (after H2).

Bruce
As awful as it sounds, I would guess that the helonium acid is not any worse than ionized hydrogen is already.
Interesting point Mark. Is there a chemist in the house?

I was trying to make it sound as awful as I could, while still being factual. Also, there's the fact that since it reacts with everything, it can also be neutralized by everything.

Cancel Red Alert.
He he. And now I feel bad for being a spoil-sport about it.
The red alert might be warranted, for all I know.

Here's one of the many examples of how space (even very near to home) messes with my intuition:
From Wikipedia's article on the Thermosphere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

The highly attenuated gas in this layer can reach 2,500 °C (4,530 °F) during the day. Despite the high temperature, an observer or object will experience cold temperatures in the thermosphere, because the extremely low density of gas (practically a hard vacuum) is insufficient for the molecules to conduct heat. A normal thermometer will read significantly below 0 °C (32 °F), at least at night, because the energy lost by thermal radiation would exceed the energy acquired from the atmospheric gas by direct contact.
I find this odd: Don't go flying around up in the thermosphere without some protection. Why? Because you'll quickly freeze to death up in that 2,500 °C air. That was hard for me to reconcile.

Back to the subject of the nebula NGC 7027, I wouldn't want to mess with helonium acid. If a molecule of it hit our spaceship, it would give away its proton, and it would damage the ship. But it depends on how much of it is around, or how much of it we needed to fly through, I guess.

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by Ann » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:53 pm

TheZuke! wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:31 pm I haven't seen the 49 pages of names that Ann mentioned,
but another possibility that occurred to me is "Flying Squirrel Nebula".

southern_flying_squirrel.jpg
:D :yes: :clap: Not quite the same thing, but 🦇

Ann

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by BDanielMayfield » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:31 pm

TheOtherBruce wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:47 pm
APOD Robot wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:08 am What lies at the nebula's center is unknown, with one hypothesis holding it to be a close binary star system where one star sheds gas onto an erratic disk orbiting the other star.
I'm curious about this bit. If the star is a close binary, shouldn't that show up with doppler shift splitting of the lines in the spectrum? Is there an orbital geometry where the splitting can't be detected?
Since no one else has answered I'll suggest a possible explanation. Since this Planetary Nebula is so young the density of the outflowing material is too high to see the star(s) at the center of this system. Therefore no stellar spectroscopy is possible. A this point the binary status is just an inference based on the appearance of the PN.

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by TheZuke! » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:31 pm

I haven't seen the 49 pages of names that Ann mentioned,
but another possibility that occurred to me is "Flying Squirrel Nebula".
southern_flying_squirrel.jpg

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by TheOtherBruce » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:47 pm

APOD Robot wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:08 am What lies at the nebula's center is unknown, with one hypothesis holding it to be a close binary star system where one star sheds gas onto an erratic disk orbiting the other star.
I'm curious about this bit. If the star is a close binary, shouldn't that show up with doppler shift splitting of the lines in the spectrum? Is there an orbital geometry where the splitting can't be detected?

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by BDanielMayfield » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:15 pm

MarkBour wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:56 pm
BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:08 pm As if space travel wasn't hard enough, now there's the real possibility of running into a cloud of helonium (HeH+) gas, an acid so strong it will react with all other molecules :!: Yikes :shock: No material vessel can possibly contain it!

Another thing you learned in school that ain't true: Noble gases (like Helium) don't or can't form molecules. Turns out HeH was one of the first molecules ever to form (after H2).

Bruce
As awful as it sounds, I would guess that the helonium acid is not any worse than ionized hydrogen is already.
Interesting point Mark. Is there a chemist in the house?

I was trying to make it sound as awful as I could, while still being factual. Also, there's the fact that since it reacts with everything, it can also be neutralized by everything.

Cancel Red Alert.

Re: NGC 7027's wondeful defense mechanism

by Ann » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:23 pm

neufer wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:16 pm
BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:41 pm
What, you weren't told in high school that Nobel gases were inert??? I'm shocked.
My shock was that No one at my high school told me about "Nobel" gases.

Sorry. Couldn't resist. :lol2:

Ann

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by MarkBour » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:56 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:08 pm As if space travel wasn't hard enough, now there's the real possibility of running into a cloud of helonium (HeH+) gas, an acid so strong it will react with all other molecules :!: Yikes :shock: No material vessel can possibly contain it!

Another thing you learned in school that ain't true: Noble gases (like Helium) don't or can't form molecules. Turns out HeH was one of the first molecules ever to form (after H2).

Bruce
As awful as it sounds, I would guess that the helonium acid is not any worse than ionized hydrogen is already.

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by BDanielMayfield » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:45 pm

:facepalm: No one should be shocked at my misspellings, given my edjurfikation, but I have the noble goal of increased knowledge none the less.

Re: NGC 7027's wondeful defense mechanism

by neufer » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:16 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:41 pm
The last shock smily was Art's, not mine.

What, you weren't told in high school that Nobel gases were inert??? I'm shocked.
My shock was that No one at my high school told me about "Nobel" gases.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobelium#Chemical wrote:
<<Nobelium is a synthetic chemical element with the symbol No and atomic number 102. It is named in honor of Alfred Nobel, the inventor of dynamite and benefactor of science. A radioactive metal, it is the penultimate member of the actinide series. A total of twelve nobelium isotopes are known to exist; the most stable is 259No with a half-life of 58 minutes, but the shorter-lived 255No (half-life 3.1 minutes) is most commonly used in chemistry because it can be produced on a larger scale.

Chemistry experiments have confirmed that nobelium behaves as a heavier homolog to ytterbium in the periodic table. The long No–H distances in the NoH2 molecule and the significant charge transfer lead to extreme ionicity with a dipole moment of 5.94 D. In this molecule, nobelium is expected to exhibit main-group-like behavior, specifically acting like an alkaline earth metal. In 1967, experiments were conducted to compare nobelium's chemical behavior to that of terbium, californium, and fermium. All four elements were reacted with chlorine and the resulting chlorides were deposited along a tube, along which they were carried by a gas. It was found that the nobelium chloride produced was strongly adsorbed on solid surfaces, proving that it was not very volatile, like the chlorides of the other three investigated elements. However, both NoCl2 and NoCl3 were expected to exhibit nonvolatile behavior and hence this experiment was inconclusive as to what the preferred oxidation state of nobelium was.>>

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by BDanielMayfield » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:43 pm

neufer wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:27 pm
BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:53 pm
[NGC 7027]'s not a fluffy pillow or a tasty marshmallow kids,

it's full of superheated helonium acid :!: :o
Very funny :clap:

Re: NGC 7027's wondeful defense mechanism

by BDanielMayfield » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:41 pm

neufer wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:14 pm
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Nice one Art.
BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:08 pmAs if space travel wasn't hard enough, now there's the real possibility of running into a cloud of helonium (HeH+) gas, an acid so strong it will react with all other molecules :!: Yikes :shock: No material vessel can possibly contain it!

Another thing you learned in school that ain't true: Nob[le] gases (like Helium) don't or can't form molecules. Turns out HeH was one of the first molecules ever to form (after H2). :shock:
The last shock smily was Art's, not mine. What, you weren't told in high school that Noble gases were inert??? I'm shocked.

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by neufer » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:27 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:53 pm
[NGC 7027]'s not a fluffy pillow or a tasty marshmallow kids,

it's full of superheated helonium acid :!: :o

NGC 7027's wondeful defense mechanism

by neufer » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:14 pm

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:08 pm

As if space travel wasn't hard enough, now there's the real possibility of running into a cloud of helonium (HeH+) gas, an acid so strong it will react with all other molecules :!: Yikes :shock: No material vessel can possibly contain it!

Another thing you learned in school that ain't true: Nob[le] gases (like Helium) don't or can't form molecules. Turns out HeH was one of the first molecules ever to form (after H2). :shock:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas_compound

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by BDanielMayfield » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:53 pm

Ann wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:34 pm
Goodness, Case, it is the most popular nebula ever here at APOD, unless I'm very much mistaken. I got quite fed up with the page after page after page of name suggestions for NGC 7027. It kept on and on and on until it hit 49 pages!

Ann
I got fed up with that Name This Nebula thread too Ann. Kill the thread! It's not a fluffy pillow or a tasty marshmallow kids, it's full of superheated helonium acid :!: :o

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by BDanielMayfield » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:08 pm

As if space travel wasn't hard enough, now there's the real possibility of running into a cloud of helonium (HeH+) gas, an acid so strong it will react with all other molecules :!: Yikes :shock: No material vessel can possibly contain it!

Another thing you learned in school that ain't true: Noble gases (like Helium) don't or can't form molecules. Turns out HeH was one of the first molecules ever to form (after H2).

Bruce

NGC 7027 releasing pungent defensive acids!

by neufer » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:32 pm

neufer wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:08 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scutelleridae wrote:
<<Like stink bugs, a vast majority of jewel bugs, both adults and nymphs, are also capable of releasing pungent defensive chemicals from glands located on the sides of the thorax. Typical compounds exuded by jewel bugs include alcohols, aldehydes, and esters. Nymphs and adults often exhibit clustering behavior, being found in large numbers close to each other. This behavior is thought to have an evolutionary advantage. The more individuals present in an area, the stronger the odor of the chemicals released when the bugs are threatened. If this fails, stink bugs will react to threat by flying away or dropping to the ground.>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_hydride_ion wrote:
<<Noted as the strongest known acid, the helium hydride ion (or hydridohelium(1+) ion or helonium) is a cation with chemical formula HeH+. It consists of a helium atom bonded to a hydrogen atom, with one electron removed. Since HeH+ cannot be stored in any usable form, its chemistry must be studied by forming it in situ. HeH+ has long been conjectured since the 1970s to exist in the interstellar medium. In 1956, M. Cantwell predicted theoretically that the spectrum of vibrations of that ion should be observable in the infrared. Its first detection, in the nebula NGC 7027, (using the airborne SOFIA telescope) was reported in an article published in the journal Nature in April 2019.

HeH+ is of fundamental importance in understanding the chemistry of the early universe. This is because hydrogen and helium were almost the only types of atoms formed in Big Bang nucleosynthesis. Stars formed from the primordial material should contain HeH+, which could influence their formation and subsequent evolution. In particular, its strong dipole moment makes it relevant to the opacity of zero-metallicity stars. HeH+ is also thought to be an important constituent of the atmospheres of helium-rich white dwarfs, where it increases the opacity of the gas and causes the star to cool more slowly. Several locations had been suggested as possible places HeH+ might be detected. These included cool helium stars, H II regions, and dense planetary nebulae. HeH+ could be formed in the cooling gas behind dissociative shocks in dense interstellar clouds, such as the shocks caused by stellar winds, supernovae and outflowing material from young stars. If the speed of the shock is greater than about 90 kilometres per second, quantities large enough to detect might be formed. If detected, the emissions from HeH+ would then be useful tracers of the shock.


The helium hydride ion is formed during the decay of tritium in the molecule HT or tritium molecule (T2 = 3H2). Although excited by the recoil from the beta decay, the molecule remains bound together. The ion was first produced in a laboratory in 1925. It is stable in isolation, but extremely reactive, and cannot be prepared in bulk, because it would react with any other molecule with which it came into contact. Unlike the dihydrogen ion H2+, the helium hydride ion has a permanent dipole moment, which makes its spectroscopic characterization easier. The electron density in the ion is higher around the helium nucleus than the hydrogen. 80% of the electron charge is closer to the helium nucleus than to the hydrogen nucleus. Spectroscopic detection is hampered, because one of its most prominent spectral lines, at 149.14 μm, coincides with a doublet of spectral lines belonging to the methylidyne radical ⫶CH. Unlike the helium hydride ion, the neutral helium hydride molecule HeH is not stable in the ground state. However, it does exist in an excited state as an excimer (HeH*), and its spectrum was first observed in the mid 1980s.>>

Re: APOD: Bright Planetary Nebula NGC 7027... (2020 Jun 30)

by Ann » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:59 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:58 pm
I am impressed by the efficiency of such stars in how much of their mass is returned to interstellar space. NGC 7027's progenitor went from about 3.5 suns down to about 0.7 in forming this baby nebula.




















Yes, high mass stars are "da shit"! :yes:

Not only do they burn bright and blue during their main sequence life times, but they also give back most of their mass to the Universe when they die, so that their mass can be recycled.


Stingy little red dwarfs glow wanly in the Universe and guard their mass supply more miserly than Uncle Scrooge guards his gold. No wonder that the Universe is running out of free gas, when all those little red stars have gobbled most of it up and refuse to give it back!

Ann

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