by neufer » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:17 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:24 pm
JohnD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:20 pm
But the great Pre-Roman civilisation on the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, East of Jerusalem had priests magicians and astrologers, who WOULD have seen the Great Conjunction of their time in the West, as we do, and followed it towards Israel.
Massive movements like Christianity aquire much legend and folklore, but they do have sparks of truth in their origins.
For me, an atheist, I feel that there WAS someone called Jesus, born under a portenteous star, who grew up to be a philosopher and religious leader, who came to an awful end. His teaching on the way to conduct one's life is exemplary, such as respecting the family and giving charity by gifts (thoroughly good Jewish teaching too, of course!) so why not celebrate what we think was his birthday in that way?
- "Portentous star" sounds a lot more astrological than astronomical.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Beethoven) wrote:
<<The Symphony No. 5 in C minor of Ludwig van Beethoven (baptised 17 December 1770), Op. 67, was written between 1804 and 1808. In an essay titled "Beethoven's Instrumental Music", published in three installments in December 1813, E.T.A. Hoffmann praised the "indescribably profound, magnificent symphony in C minor":
- How this wonderful composition, in a climax that climbs on and on, leads the listener imperiously forward into the spirit world of the infinite!... No doubt the whole rushes like an ingenious rhapsody past many a man, but the soul of each thoughtful listener is assuredly stirred, deeply and intimately, by a feeling that is none other than that unutterable portentous longing, and until the final chord—indeed, even in the moments that follow it—he will be powerless to step out of that wondrous spirit realm where grief and joy embrace him in the form of sound....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi wrote:
<<Magi (from Latin magus) were priests in Zoroastrianism and the earlier religions of the western Iranians. The earliest known use of the word magi is in the trilingual inscription written by Darius the Great, known as the Behistun Inscription. Old Persian texts, predating the Hellenistic period, refer to a magus as a Zurvanic, and presumably Zoroastrian, priest.
Pervasive throughout the Eastern Mediterranean and Western Asia until late antiquity and beyond, mágos was influenced by (and eventually displaced) Greek goēs (γόης), the older word for a practitioner of magic, to include astronomy/astrology, alchemy and other forms of esoteric knowledge. This association was in turn the product of the Hellenistic fascination for (Pseudo‑)Zoroaster, who was perceived by the Greeks to be the Chaldean founder of the Magi and inventor of both astrology and magic, a meaning that still survives in the modern-day words "magic" and "magician".
In the Gospel of Matthew, "μάγοι" (MAGOI) from the east do homage to the newborn Jesus, and the transliterated plural "magi" entered English from Latin in this context around 1200 (this particular use is also commonly rendered in English as "kings" and more often in recent times as "wise men"). The singular "magus" appears considerably later, when it was borrowed from Old French in the late 14th century with the meaning magician.
The term only appears twice in Iranian texts from before the 5th century BCE, and only one of these can be dated with precision. This one instance occurs in the trilingual Behistun inscription of Darius the Great, and which can be dated to about 520 BCE. In this trilingual text, certain rebels have magian as an attribute; in the Old Persian portion as maγu- (generally assumed to be a loan word from Median). The meaning of the term in this context is uncertain.>>
[quote="Chris Peterson" post_id=309031 time=1608132275 user_id=117706]
[quote=JohnD post_id=309030 time=1608132028 user_id=100329]
But the great Pre-Roman civilisation on the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, East of Jerusalem had priests magicians and astrologers, who WOULD have seen the Great Conjunction of their time in the West, as we do, and followed it towards Israel.
Massive movements like Christianity aquire much legend and folklore, but they do have sparks of truth in their origins.
For me, an atheist, I feel that there WAS someone called Jesus, born under a portenteous star, who grew up to be a philosopher and religious leader, who came to an awful end. His teaching on the way to conduct one's life is exemplary, such as respecting the family and giving charity by gifts (thoroughly good Jewish teaching too, of course!) so why not celebrate what we think was his birthday in that way?[/quote]
[list]"Portentous star" sounds a lot more [i]astrological [/i]than [i]astronomical[/i].[/list][/quote][quote=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Beethoven)]
<<The Symphony No. 5 in C minor of Ludwig van Beethoven (baptised 17 December 1770), Op. 67, was written between 1804 and 1808. In an essay titled "Beethoven's Instrumental Music", published in three installments in December 1813, E.T.A. Hoffmann praised the "indescribably profound, magnificent symphony in C minor":
[list][size=125][i][color=#0000FF] [b]How this wonderful composition, in a climax that climbs on and on, leads the listener imperiously forward into the spirit world of the infinite!... No doubt the whole rushes like an ingenious rhapsody past many a man, but the soul of each thoughtful listener is assuredly stirred, deeply and intimately, by a feeling that is none other than that unutterable [u]portentous[/u] longing, and until the final chord—indeed, even in the moments that follow it—he will be powerless to step out of that wondrous spirit realm where grief and joy embrace him in the form of sound....[/b][/color][/i][/size][/list][/quote]
[quote=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi]
<<Magi (from Latin magus) were priests in Zoroastrianism and the earlier religions of the western Iranians. The earliest known use of the word magi is in the trilingual inscription written by Darius the Great, known as the Behistun Inscription. Old Persian texts, predating the Hellenistic period, refer to a magus as a Zurvanic, and presumably Zoroastrian, priest.
Pervasive throughout the Eastern Mediterranean and Western Asia until late antiquity and beyond, mágos was influenced by (and eventually displaced) Greek goēs (γόης), the older word for a practitioner of magic, to include astronomy/astrology, alchemy and other forms of esoteric knowledge. This association was in turn the product of the Hellenistic fascination for (Pseudo‑)Zoroaster, who was perceived by the Greeks to be the Chaldean founder of the Magi and inventor of both astrology and magic, a meaning that still survives in the modern-day words "magic" and "magician".
[b][color=#0000FF]In the Gospel of Matthew, [u]"μάγοι" (MAGOI)[/u][/color][/b] from the east do homage to the newborn Jesus, and the transliterated plural "magi" entered English from Latin in this context around 1200 (this particular use is also commonly rendered in English as "kings" and more often in recent times as "wise men"). The singular "magus" appears considerably later, when it was borrowed from Old French in the late 14th century with the meaning magician.
The term only appears twice in Iranian texts from before the 5th century BCE, and only one of these can be dated with precision. This one instance occurs in the trilingual Behistun inscription of Darius the Great, and which can be dated to about 520 BCE. In this trilingual text, certain rebels have magian as an attribute; in the Old Persian portion as maγu- (generally assumed to be a loan word from Median). The meaning of the term in this context is uncertain.>>[/quote]