Starship Asterisk*

JohnD wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:57 pm OK, ignore that, but insert search for the North and South Poles, in particular "The Worst Journey in the World" of Apsley Cherry-Garrard. This was a side trip to Scott's tragic South Pole attempt, that was to take Emperor penguin eggs, laid on the sea-ice in deepest Antarctic winter. No robot could recover them, but study of the embryos was considered essential to the science of the relative evolution of birds and reptiles. The expedition was indeed the "worst in the world" and the three men on it barely survived. Cherry-Garrad was still too ill to go with Scott the next summer. Lucky for him

That by the time the expedition returned to civilisation, theory had moved on and the penguin eggs were of no interest to laboratory scientists, has no influence on the value of the expedition, in human terms. It was as heroic, self-sacrificing and inspiring as any astronaut's, and I include Shepard and Apollo 13.

Do read Cherry-Gerrad's story if you haven't: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14363 (it's also available as audio- and videobook)
Or watch this short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdBT670 ... toryMuseum

If that doesn't make you think that human exploration is always worthwhile, then ... well you're still human, but you don't get something about us!

JohnD wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 9:02 am Extraordinary, Chris! By your argument, Ferdinand and Isabella should not have used public funds, the Royal income from meadieval taxation, to fund that crazy Italian sailor.

JohnD wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 9:02 am Extraordinary, Chris! By your argument, Ferdinand and Isabella should not have used public funds, the Royal income from meadieval taxation, to fund that crazy Italian sailor.

Wadsworth wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 10:15 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:05 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:39 pm

Of course, many would say the same thing for the (unmanned) JWST. But not me! :ssmile:

At ten times the cost, it would still be worth it.

I can find some logic in both of your arguments. I feel that the majority of endeavors which humanity seeks out have their intrinsic value. Robotic and manned space travel should hold value as much as anything else we’ve set out to do, and succeeded in. I also think the time was right in the 60’s,70’s, etc. for the Government to pave the way where no private enterprise could. And now the time is ripe for private enterprise to take the lead and push forward.

Following the various robotic exploration missions and rovers has been quite exciting, but it will be spellbinding on an entirely different level to follow the first manned Mars exploration crew.

It is ingrained in us (at least some of us) to find out what is just over the next hill, the next mountain, the next planet. And put our ‘boots’ there.

-Nick-

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:05 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:39 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 5:49 pm
Well, that's not terribly useful information except in the context of humans in space.

In any case, it's not that we haven't learned anything. It's about costs and benefits. And IMO the costs of the ISS and other man-in-space efforts have vastly outweighed the benefits.

Of course, many would say the same thing for the (unmanned) JWST. But not me!

At ten times the cost, it would still be worth it.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:39 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 5:49 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 5:31 pm

Ok, yeah, I think I can agree that the ISS can be seen as a boondoggle. But surely they have learned something useful about the effects of long term weightlessness on human physiology? Or is that part of the "almost none"?

Well, that's not terribly useful information except in the context of humans in space.

In any case, it's not that we haven't learned anything. It's about costs and benefits. And IMO the costs of the ISS and other man-in-space efforts have vastly outweighed the benefits.

Of course, many would say the same thing for the (unmanned) JWST. But not me! :ssmile:

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 5:49 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 5:31 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:52 pm
What science? They spend 99% of their time keeping the plumbing and air recycling equipment functional. And almost none of the science they're doing couldn't be done just as effectively by robots.

Ok, yeah, I think I can agree that the ISS can be seen as a boondoggle. But surely they have learned something useful about the effects of long term weightlessness on human physiology? Or is that part of the "almost none"?

Well, that's not terribly useful information except in the context of humans in space.

In any case, it's not that we haven't learned anything. It's about costs and benefits. And IMO the costs of the ISS and other man-in-space efforts have vastly outweighed the benefits.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 5:31 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:52 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:38 pm

Just curious what you think of the science being done by humans on the ISS? Mostly a waste, or does it provide some useful scientific knowledge? Is there anything being gained from the human residents there, or are they superfluous?

What science? They spend 99% of their time keeping the plumbing and air recycling equipment functional. And almost none of the science they're doing couldn't be done just as effectively by robots.

Ok, yeah, I think I can agree that the ISS can be seen as a boondoggle. But surely they have learned something useful about the effects of long term weightlessness on human physiology? Or is that part of the "almost none"?

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:52 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:38 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:01 pm

I have no issue at all with private enterprises engaging in such activities. I just don't like to see NASA or other publicly funded agencies doing so.

Just curious what you think of the science being done by humans on the ISS? Mostly a waste, or does it provide some useful scientific knowledge? Is there anything being gained from the human residents there, or are they superfluous?

What science? They spend 99% of their time keeping the plumbing and air recycling equipment functional. And almost none of the science they're doing couldn't be done just as effectively by robots.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:38 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:01 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:53 pm

Understood, but I'm happy Elon Musk appears to disagree.

I have no issue at all with private enterprises engaging in such activities. I just don't like to see NASA or other publicly funded agencies doing so.

Just curious what you think of the science being done by humans on the ISS? Mostly a waste, or does it provide some useful scientific knowledge? Is there anything being gained from the human residents there, or are they superfluous?

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:01 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:53 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:47 pm
I hope not. I oppose almost all human exploration of space as a waste of resources. It serves no purpose while sucking resources from things that provide genuine benefits.

Understood, but I'm happy Elon Musk appears to disagree.

I have no issue at all with private enterprises engaging in such activities. I just don't like to see NASA or other publicly funded agencies doing so.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:53 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:47 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:45 pm

Yes, there have been great advances due to robotic missions, but I believe the advancements from human missions would likely be in different but equally important areas more directly related to human health, climate change, and the protection of Earth from human actions. Hopefully someday soon we will find out.

I hope not. I oppose almost all human exploration of space as a waste of resources. It serves no purpose while sucking resources from things that provide genuine benefits.

Understood, but I'm happy Elon Musk appears to disagree.

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:47 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:45 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:07 am

But that funding wasn't an option. As to the other... no, I think the advances from robotics are significantly beyond what we'd get from manned missions.

Yes, there have been great advances due to robotic missions, but I believe the advancements from human missions would likely be in different but equally important areas more directly related to human health, climate change, and the protection of Earth from human actions. Hopefully someday soon we will find out.

I hope not. I oppose almost all human exploration of space as a waste of resources. It serves no purpose while sucking resources from things that provide genuine benefits.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:45 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:07 am

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 6:36 pm

I realize all that, but it would be hard to argue that manned missions to other planets wouldn't have been a much better use of (even a modest fraction of) the trillions that have been spent on national defense over the past decades. And I think you could also argue that the technological innovations necessary to accomplish that would have had beneficial repercussions for humanity beyond what has been gained from robotic missions.

But that funding wasn't an option. As to the other... no, I think the advances from robotics are significantly beyond what we'd get from manned missions.

Yes, there have been great advances due to robotic missions, but I believe the advancements from human missions would likely be in different but equally important areas more directly related to human health, climate change, and the protection of Earth from human actions. Hopefully someday soon we will find out.

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 4:07 am

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 6:36 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:45 pm

It is important to remember that the early space program was all about military might. It was cold war posturing, not science. And boots on the Moon didn't really do much... although it did so at great cost.

Since then, humans have launched hundreds of research missions, visited every planet as well as comets and asteroids, and advanced our knowledge of the Solar System and the Universe immeasurably. In large part because we devoted our limited resources to robotic missions, capable of returning large amounts of information, as opposed to putting boots on other bodies, which is showy, but that's about all.

I realize all that, but it would be hard to argue that manned missions to other planets wouldn't have been a much better use of (even a modest fraction of) the trillions that have been spent on national defense over the past decades. And I think you could also argue that the technological innovations necessary to accomplish that would have had beneficial repercussions for humanity beyond what has been gained from robotic missions.

But that funding wasn't an option. As to the other... no, I think the advances from robotics are significantly beyond what we'd get from manned missions.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 6:36 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:45 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:35 pm

And equally incredible that our boots have gone no farther since then. :(

It is important to remember that the early space program was all about military might. It was cold war posturing, not science. And boots on the Moon didn't really do much... although it did so at great cost.

Since then, humans have launched hundreds of research missions, visited every planet as well as comets and asteroids, and advanced our knowledge of the Solar System and the Universe immeasurably. In large part because we devoted our limited resources to robotic missions, capable of returning large amounts of information, as opposed to putting boots on other bodies, which is showy, but that's about all.

I realize all that, but it would be hard to argue that manned missions to other planets wouldn't have been a much better use of (even a modest fraction of) the trillions that have been spent on national defense over the past decades. And I think you could also argue that the technological innovations necessary to accomplish that would have had beneficial repercussions for humanity beyond what has been gained from robotic missions.

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:45 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:35 pm

Wadsworth wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:56 pm It's incredible that we went from the first man in space to boots on the moon in only eight years.

And equally incredible that our boots have gone no farther since then.

It is important to remember that the early space program was all about military might. It was cold war posturing, not science. And boots on the Moon didn't really do much... although it did so at great cost.

Since then, humans have launched hundreds of research missions, visited every planet as well as comets and asteroids, and advanced our knowledge of the Solar System and the Universe immeasurably. In large part because we devoted our limited resources to robotic missions, capable of returning large amounts of information, as opposed to putting boots on other bodies, which is showy, but that's about all.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:35 pm

Wadsworth wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:56 pm It's incredible that we went from the first man in space to boots on the moon in only eight years.

And equally incredible that our boots have gone no farther since then.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:35 pm

Wadsworth wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:56 pm It's incredible that we went from the first man in space to boots on the moon in only eight years.

And equally incredible that our boots have gone no farther since then. :(

Wadsworth wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:56 pm It's incredible that we went from the first man in space to boots on the moon in only eight years.

Wadsworth wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:56 pm It's incredible that we went from the first man in space to boots on the moon in only eight years.