Starship Asterisk*

by **VictorBorun** » Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:34 pm

AVAO wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:31 pm
VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:04 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:46 pm Why would such a planet produce a cometary trail at all? And why would any short trail persist in that windy, high radiation pressure environment?
Not sure if a planet of a blow-up star donors the matter for a cometary nebula or, on the contrary, blocks and partially decline the stellar flow. Both ways a straight «shadow» forms, does it not?
I find your idea very exciting as the line effectively points directly away from the less bright companion star. Unfortunately, the "planet tail" can only be seen in the green and blue channels but absolutely not in the red, which supports Chris' thesis. I would assume that it is a technically generated image fragment...

Jac

Do you mean that a planet's tail would have to differ somewhat in colours from the rest of the curved lanes? Because the planet's chemistry would be different?

But what if a distant exo-Jupiter has a strong magnetic field that makes a shadow in the stellar flow and prevents any donation to the flow?

by **AVAO** » Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:31 pm

VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:04 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:46 pm Why would such a planet produce a cometary trail at all? And why would any short trail persist in that windy, high radiation pressure environment?
Not sure if a planet of a blow-up star donors the matter for a cometary nebula or, on the contrary, blocks and partially decline the stellar flow. Both ways a straight «shadow» forms, does it not?

I find your idea very exciting as the line effectively points directly away from the less bright companion star. Unfortunately, the "planet tail" can only be seen in the green and blue channels but absolutely not in the red, which supports Chris' thesis. I would assume that it is a technically generated image fragment...

Jac

by **Chris Peterson** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:08 pm

VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:04 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:46 pm Why would such a planet produce a cometary trail at all? And why would any short trail persist in that windy, high radiation pressure environment?
Not sure if a planet of a blow-up star donors the matter for a cometary nebula or, on the contrary, blocks and partially decline the stellar flow. Both ways a straight «shadow» forms, does it not?

I don't see a planet forming a resolvable shadow at all.

by **VictorBorun** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:04 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:46 pm Why would such a planet produce a cometary trail at all? And why would any short trail persist in that windy, high radiation pressure environment?

Not sure if a planet of a blow-up star donors the matter for a cometary nebula or, on the contrary, blocks and partially decline the stellar flow. Both ways a straight «shadow» forms, does it not?

by **Chris Peterson** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:46 pm

VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:31 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:49 pm What you're seeing as a "cometary tail" doesn't look any different to me than the clumpy structure seen all over this nebula.
The one I am pointing at is straight and oriented away from the dwarf, just like hundreds of cometaries at the periphery of the main ring a light year large.

The many clumpy structure inside the main ring are curved lanes and so could have formed as jets from a fast rotating thing like the exploding star or the accretion disk around the companion star.

A planet orbiting 10-20 light days from the binary stellar system would have a 100 thousands years period and more or less would stay still while producing a straight cometary tail.

Why would such a planet produce a cometary trail at all? And why would any short trail persist in that windy, high radiation pressure environment?

by **VictorBorun** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:31 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:49 pm What you're seeing as a "cometary tail" doesn't look any different to me than the clumpy structure seen all over this nebula.

The one I am pointing at is straight and oriented away from the dwarf, just like hundreds of cometaries at the periphery of the main ring a light year large.

The many clumpy structure inside the main ring are curved lanes and so could have formed as jets from a fast rotating thing like the exploding star or the accretion disk around the companion star.

A planet orbiting 10-20 light days from the binary stellar system would have a 100 thousands years period and more or less would stay still while producing a straight cometary tail.

by **Chris Peterson** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:49 pm

VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:29 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:05 pm
VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:43 pm Southern Ring Nebula + 6.jpg
Southern Ring Nebula + 7.jpg
I mean a straight comet-like tail that seem to start from a point 11 light days from the hot dwarf.
My lines are drawn 5° to East from South
I don't see how you can make any reasonable assumptions about the distance of this structure from the star. Or how you can assume that a faint bright point is a planet as opposed to a star or a dust clump.
about the distance
There is 0.25 ly interval for scale.
The plane of the dwarf, the companion star, the light-year large ring and supposed planets is at an angle, making the ring an ellipse 2 times compressed in one direction. Were the position of the supposed planet at 7 o'clock from the star we should multiply the 11 light days by 2 and get 22 light days; as it is, the distance is more like 17 light days.

a faint bright point
Am I clumsy with words. I don't mean we can see the supposed planet as any dot.
I mean just a cometary tail that may start at a planet.
Here I try to highlight that tail:
Southern Ring Nebula + 8.jpgSouthern Ring Nebula + 9.jpg

The failed assumption, IMO, is supposing that what you're seeing lies on the same plane as the star. I see nothing to support that. Nor that it lies on the same plane as the binary system.

What you're seeing as a "cometary tail" doesn't look any different to me than the clumpy structure seen all over this nebula.

by **VictorBorun** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:44 pm

bystander wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:36 pm
VictorBorun wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:46 pm
I wonder if we can see a planet 11 light days away from the dwarf in NIR pic
Not the planet as a dot but a long straight tail?

I think what you are calling a planet is the progenitor of the nebula, at least that is what is indicated by the APOD text.

APOD text says:
This stellar pair's orbital motion has resulted the complex structures within the Southern Ring Nebula.
No mention of planets as progenitors of some of the details.

The main ring is as large as Oort's cloud. I doubt that it can contain hundreds of cold jupiters to account for all the comet-like tails spiking out of the main ring. There must be clumps ejected by the exploded star; say, some magnetic coils that trapped some matter in an outer layer of the star and held it together through the kick of the shock wave from beneath.

But one close cometary tail I think we can see is close enough for a planet in an orbit around both stars.

by **VictorBorun** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:29 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:05 pm
VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:43 pm Southern Ring Nebula + 6.jpg
Southern Ring Nebula + 7.jpg
I mean a straight comet-like tail that seem to start from a point 11 light days from the hot dwarf.
My lines are drawn 5° to East from South
I don't see how you can make any reasonable assumptions about the distance of this structure from the star. Or how you can assume that a faint bright point is a planet as opposed to a star or a dust clump.

about the distance
There is 0.25 ly interval for scale.
The plane of the dwarf, the companion star, the light-year large ring and supposed planets is at an angle, making the ring an ellipse 2 times compressed in one direction. Were the position of the supposed planet at 7 o'clock from the star we should multiply the 11 light days by 2 and get 22 light days; as it is, the distance is more like 17 light days.

a faint bright point
Am I clumsy with words. I don't mean we can see the supposed planet as any dot.
I mean just a cometary tail that may start at a planet.
Here I try to highlight that tail:

by **bystander** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:36 pm

VictorBorun wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:46 pm
I wonder if we can see a planet 11 light days away from the dwarf in NIR pic
Not the planet as a dot but a long straight tail?

I think what you are calling a planet is the progenitor of the nebula, at least that is what is indicated by the APOD text.

by **Chris Peterson** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:05 pm

VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:43 pm
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:38 pm
VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:46 am
Sorry I was not clear. Updated my comment.
Yellow dotted lines were mine
Sure, the lines were clearly your addition, but where exactly do you think the planet (or "tail") is? I see nothing significant near your arrow.

[ EDIT: at least, I see nothing in my own blow-up of the image. There is "something" there in your blow-up, but I'm not sure if that's a yellow dot you added or not! }
Southern Ring Nebula + 6.jpg
Southern Ring Nebula + 7.jpg
I mean a straight comet-like tail that seem to start from a point 11 light days from the hot dwarf.
My lines are drawn 5° to East from South

I don't see how you can make any reasonable assumptions about the distance of this structure from the star. Or how you can assume that a faint bright point is a planet as opposed to a star or a dust clump.

by **VictorBorun** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:43 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:38 pm
VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:46 am
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:12 pm

That is clearly an artifact of some kind, as the dots are much smaller than the optical resolution of the system.
Sorry I was not clear. Updated my comment.
Yellow dotted lines were mine
Sure, the lines were clearly your addition, but where exactly do you think the planet (or "tail") is? I see nothing significant near your arrow.

[ EDIT: at least, I see nothing in my own blow-up of the image. There is "something" there in your blow-up, but I'm not sure if that's a yellow dot you added or not! }

I mean a straight comet-like tail that seem to start from a point 11 light days from the hot dwarf.
My lines are drawn 5° to East from South

by **johnnydeep** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:38 pm

VictorBorun wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:46 am
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:12 pm
VictorBorun wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:46 pm I wonder if we can see a planet 11 light years away from the dwarf in NIR pic
Not the planet as a dot but a long straight tail

Southern Ring Nebula + 5.jpg
That is clearly an artifact of some kind, as the dots are much smaller than the optical resolution of the system.
Sorry I was not clear. Updated my comment.
Yellow dotted lines were mine

Sure, the lines were clearly your addition, but where exactly do you think the planet (or "tail") is? I see nothing significant near your arrow.

[ EDIT: at least, I see nothing in my own blow-up of the image. There is "something" there in your blow-up, but I'm not sure if that's a yellow dot you added or not! }

by **VictorBorun** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:46 am

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:12 pm
VictorBorun wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:46 pm I wonder if we can see a planet 11 light years away from the dwarf in NIR pic
Not the planet as a dot but a long straight tail

Southern Ring Nebula + 5.jpg
That is clearly an artifact of some kind, as the dots are much smaller than the optical resolution of the system.

Sorry I was not clear. Updated my comment.
Yellow dotted lines were mine

by **Avalon** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:54 pm

What type of energy created the many rays radiating through the ejected material, especially in the lower left quadrant of the nebula?

by **Chris Peterson** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:12 pm

VictorBorun wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:46 pm I wonder if we can see a planet 11 light years away from the dwarf in NIR pic
Not the planet as a dot but a long straight tail

Southern Ring Nebula + 5.jpg

That is clearly an artifact of some kind, as the dots are much smaller than the optical resolution of the system.

by **VictorBorun** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:46 pm

I wonder if we can see a planet 11 light days away from the dwarf in NIR pic
Not the planet as a dot but a long straight tail?

Here I try to mark the tail and the distance between the dwarf and the tail, with yellow dotted lines (see in full resolution)

by **JudyTexan** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:37 pm

...10:00 spike...

by **JudyTexan** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:35 pm

Thanks for the location hints for the star that exploded! I was looking farther along the spike.

The edge-on spiral galaxy at about 8:00 is spectacular.

by **shaileshs** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:43 pm

I wonder what's the BIG deal NASA folks are other people are making about that "edge-on" galaxy seen at 10 o'clock position.. Within the external sprayed cloud (orange portion), I see *at least* a couple more between 8-9 o'clock.. maybe there are more.. And unfortunately the star that exploded doesn't show up clearly in the new image (gets blocked by companion star's spike I guess)..

by **Chris Peterson** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:19 pm

SeedsofEarfth wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:17 pm I am amazed at the clarity of this image; it is so clear one can see several faint galaxies behind the veil of dust surrounding the binary, even one edge-on at the ten o'clock position in the red dust cloud. And I thought Hubble was sharp, but this is incredible. I can't wait to see other celestial features using this wonderful tool. It would be great to see Eta Carinae using the Webb telescope. Let's get it on!

The JWST and the HST have about the same resolution. Images from both are equally "clear". They simply show different parts of the spectrum.

by **SeedsofEarfth** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:17 pm

I am amazed at the clarity of this image; it is so clear one can see several faint galaxies behind the veil of dust surrounding the binary, even one edge-on at the ten o'clock position in the red dust cloud. And I thought Hubble was sharp, but this is incredible. I can't wait to see other celestial features using this wonderful tool. It would be great to see Eta Carinae using the Webb telescope. Let's get it on!

by **orin stepanek** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:52 pm

I like! I hope NASA keeps sending new photos to enjoy!

by **AVAO** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:49 am

Ann wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:36 am

Webbtelescope.org wrote:
NASA’s Webb Telescope has revealed the cloak of dust around the second star, shown at left in red, at the center of the Southern Ring Nebula for the first time. It is a hot, dense white dwarf star.
It is going to be hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that white dwarfs can be so cloaked in dust that they are red. I always look for the bluest star inside a planetary nebula to spot the central white dwarf inside it.
Ann

The companion star is also very visible in the HUBBLE images, why should this be the first time?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/522 ... 0e5e_o.jpg
jac berne (flickr)

... ok sorry ... "the dust coat around the second star" ... that's true of course ...

by **VictorBorun** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:18 am

I miss a colour legend for Hubble's optic band pic

: Southern Ring Nebula hubble orientation.png (11.72 KiB) Viewed 59373 times

Why the inside is blue by Hubble and far infra-red from Webb?

What are the ring's shape and matter?
Is it round and seen at the angle, making one dimension 2 times shorter?
Is it slightly thicker outside, making the side near to us less illuminated from the center?

What velocity is the ring expanding at; how old is it?

Starship Asterisk*

APOD: Webb's Southern Ring Nebula (2022 Jul 14)

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