APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

Post a reply


This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
Smilies
:D :) :ssmile: :( :o :shock: :? 8-) :lol2: :x :P :oops: :cry: :evil: :roll: :wink: :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :| :mrgreen:
View more smilies

BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[url] is ON
Smilies are ON

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Ann » Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:02 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 8:06 pm Thank you Ann.
We should bear in mind that the red dwarf stars are so faint that they affect the overall surface brightness of a galaxy hardly at all. So if there is an excess of red dwarf stars in NGC 1380, then there might be a surprisingly high density of stars in the positions of your red crosses in NGC 1380.

Normally a great excess of red dwarf stars is only found in the really large elliptical galaxies, like M87. But it seems certain that the dominant elliptical galaxy of the Fornax Cluster, NGC 1399, also has more than its fair share of them.

Whether the density of red dwarf stars near your red crosses in NGC 1380 in higher than in the solar neighborhood in the Milky Way, I frankly have no idea.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Sun Nov 05, 2023 8:06 pm

Thank you Ann.

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Ann » Sun Nov 05, 2023 7:57 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:11 pm Oh, one more question. How far apart do you suppose the stars are in the halo, at, say, the location of the two Xs below?


And would it be similar to the separation of the stars near the Sun?


Interesting questions and hard to answer. Let me begin with the number and type of stars within 20 light-years of your red crosses in NGC 1380. I don't think you would find any A-type stars at all in a random sphere with a diameter of 20 light-years in NGC 1380.

That's not to say that there aren't any A-type stars at all in NGC 1380. There might be some, and indeed, I really think you will find some in the dust lane near the core. But because there is no ongoing large scale star formation at all in NGC 1380, and there clearly hasn't been any for at least a billion years, any A-type stars in NGC 1380 will be extremely few and far between.


Here's my point. I believe that the stellar populations are more or less the same everywhere in NGC 1380, except in the dust lane and possibly in the core.


The overall color of NGC 1380 is somewhere between Capella (far left in the second row) and Pollux (second from left in the fourth row). If you ask me, most of the light in NGC 1380 comes from stars like Capella, Pollux and Arcturus. However, most of the stars in NGC 1380 will be extremely faint M-type dwarfs (= red dwarfs), faint but a bit brighter K-type dwarfs (= orange dwarfs) and still brighter G-type stars (= yellow dwarfs).

In fact, in a random sphere with a diameter of 20 light-years at the general position of your crosses in NGC 1380, chances are high that there are no giant stars at all, no Capellas, Polluxes or Arcturuses. Chances are that the stellar population would be similar to that within 20 light-years of the Sun, except that NGC 1380 will boast no A-type stars and probably no F-type stars either.

So we could make an educated guess at what kind of stars we would find at the position of your red crosses in NGC 1380. By measuring the surface brightness of NGC 1380 at these points, and bearing in mind what type of stars we are likely to encounter here, we can indeed make an educated guess at the stellar density at these points.

Maybe, as you said, it would be similar to stellar density in our own neck of the Milky Way woods. But I don't know enough to make a good guess here.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:11 pm

Oh, one more question. How far apart do you suppose the stars are in the halo, at, say, the location of the two Xs below?

NGC 1380 in the Fornax Cluster.jpg

And would it be similar to the separation of the stars near the Sun?

stars within 20 lightyears.png
a census of stars withing 20 lightyears.png

PS - why can't I create a picture link to this gif:

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:29 pm

Ann said:
So, conclusion, the white stuff we can see in the images you asked about is stars, and stars only.
Thanks. And yes, I am always amazed by this fact. Stars, stars, oh so many blazing stars!


Or, "My god, it's full of stars!"

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Ann » Sun Nov 05, 2023 5:51 am

johnnydeep wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:33 pm
Ann wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 5:52 am
AVAO wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 8:45 pm

The core region is very small compared to the galaxy's halo. jac berne (flickr)

Thanks, Jac! So NGC 1380 is another NGC 4526 after all!


Ann
And just to be clear, that diffuse white "fog" of a halo surrounding the galaxy cores in these images is composed of stars, not just gas, correct?
Since these images are visible-light images, the white stuff surrounding the galaxy cores are most definitely stars. Because gas doesn't glow at visible wavelengths unless it's being ionized and made to emit light at visible wavelengths. And there is nothing here that could create that sort of large-scale ionization.

There might, for all I know, be a ubiquitous glow of extremely faint hydrogen alpha emission all over and inside this galaxy. But it would be way, way, way too faint to show up here. But it is far, far from certain that there is any appreciable amount of any such hydrogen alpha surrounding these elliptical and lenticular galaxies at all. Take a look at this LRGB + H-alpha picture of Markarian's Chain in the Virgo Cluster:

Virgo Cluster in LRGB and 33 hours of H alpha Jakob Sahner.png
The Virgo Cluster of galaxies in LRGB and 33 hours of H-alpha.
Note the red tendril between disturbed spiral NGC 4438 and elliptical M86.
Credit: Jakob Sahner.

You can see that, apart from the bridge of ionized hydrogen between NGC 4438 and M86, there isn't a lot of visible red gas in the Virgo Cluster. Not in a 33 hours of H-alpha exposure image, at least.


However, there may be million-degree gas surrounding NGC 1380. There exists no Chandra X-ray telescope image showing us NGC 1380, but there is a Chandra X-ray picture of the central massive elliptical galaxy, NGC 1399, and two other elliptical galaxies close to it:


But this million-degree gas is only visible to telescopes like Chandra. So, conclusion, the white stuff we can see in the images you asked about is stars, and stars only.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:33 pm

Ann wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 5:52 am
AVAO wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 8:45 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:56 pm

Yup, that's it alright, but it looks completely different in that center region closeup!
The core region is very small compared to the galaxy's halo. jac berne (flickr)

Thanks, Jac! So NGC 1380 is another NGC 4526 after all!


Ann
And just to be clear, that diffuse white "fog" of a halo surrounding the galaxy cores in these images is composed of stars, not just gas, correct?

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Ann » Sat Nov 04, 2023 5:52 am

AVAO wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 8:45 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:56 pm
Pastorian wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:28 pm

I browsed the CDS Portal - I'm fairly sure the galaxy you're referring to is NGC 1380, position: 03 36 27.828 -34 58 33.85. The cause of the beaded appearance becomes more clear in this excellent HST image:
Yup, that's it alright, but it looks completely different in that center region closeup!
The core region is very small compared to the galaxy's halo. jac berne (flickr)

Thanks, Jac! So NGC 1380 is another NGC 4526 after all!


Ann

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by AVAO » Fri Nov 03, 2023 8:45 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:56 pm
Pastorian wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:28 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:17 pm Besides the nice galaxies Ann pointed out above, this odd looking "three bead" galaxy caught my eye:

odd looking galaxy in the fornax cluster - three beads.png
I browsed the CDS Portal - I'm fairly sure the galaxy you're referring to is NGC 1380, position: 03 36 27.828 -34 58 33.85. The cause of the beaded appearance becomes more clear in this excellent HST image:
Yup, that's it alright, but it looks completely different in that center region closeup!
The core region is very small compared to the galaxy's halo. jac berne (flickr)

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:41 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:23 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:14 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 2:41 pm

English as she is spoken.
:ssmile:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_She_Is_Spoke
Thanks. I didn't get the reference.

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:23 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:14 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 2:41 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:58 pm

Ah - "Formed that way, not "formed that way"! D'oh!
English as she is spoken.
:ssmile:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_She_Is_Spoke

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:14 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 2:41 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:58 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:50 pm
The way they are... as ellipticals or irregulars.
Ah - "Formed that way, not "formed that way"! D'oh!
English as she is spoken.
:ssmile:

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Nov 03, 2023 2:41 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:58 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:50 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:47 pm

Which way?
The way they are... as ellipticals or irregulars.
Ah - "Formed that way, not "formed that way"! D'oh!
English as she is spoke.

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:58 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:50 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:47 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:23 pm
There's a lot that isn't known about galaxy formation. But broadly, I don't think anything morphs into a spiral (unless it's a process very early in galaxy formation). It's possible that some non-spiral galaxies formed that way, but when a spiral is tidally disrupted, it commonly becomes an elliptical or irregular galaxy.
Which way?
The way they are... as ellipticals or irregulars.
Ah - "Formed that way, not "formed that way"! D'oh!

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:50 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:47 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:23 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:13 pm

Do elliptical, spiral and irregular galaxies morph into each other over time? Merging spirals can form ellipticals I think, but are there other transformations? Irregulars growing into either spirals or ellipticals?
There's a lot that isn't known about galaxy formation. But broadly, I don't think anything morphs into a spiral (unless it's a process very early in galaxy formation). It's possible that some non-spiral galaxies formed that way, but when a spiral is tidally disrupted, it commonly becomes an elliptical or irregular galaxy.
Which way?
The way they are... as ellipticals or irregulars.

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:47 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:23 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:13 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:53 pm

Keep in mind that we're not seeing static structures, but bodies in complex orbits around each other. How they appear to our brief snapshot view is not representative of any real structure. It's transient. Come back in a few hundred million years and these clusters will look very different, with very different apparent structures.
Do elliptical, spiral and irregular galaxies morph into each other over time? Merging spirals can form ellipticals I think, but are there other transformations? Irregulars growing into either spirals or ellipticals?
There's a lot that isn't known about galaxy formation. But broadly, I don't think anything morphs into a spiral (unless it's a process very early in galaxy formation). It's possible that some non-spiral galaxies formed that way, but when a spiral is tidally disrupted, it commonly becomes an elliptical or irregular galaxy.
Which way?

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Ann » Fri Nov 03, 2023 6:46 am

orin stepanek wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 11:35 pm
NGC1365; What a beauty! Upper Right!

Not seeing Andromeda here!

Here it is, Orin! :D

APOD 27 September 2013 annotated.png

Ann

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Ann » Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:59 am

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:17 pm Besides the nice galaxies Ann pointed out above, this odd looking "three bead" galaxy caught my eye:

I'll reserve judgement on whether or not the "three bead galaxy" really is NGC 1380. Admittedly it could be, although it does look quite different in the picture posted by Pastorian. It is true that some lenticular galaxies, which otherwise lack dust or star formation, may have a small dust ring near their cores.


But often, when we see a "three-bead" galaxy, we are seeing what I would call a former barred spiral galaxy that has lost its ability to form new stars. All its stars have grown old and yellow, and the galaxy has lost its spiral arms and its dust lanes.

But a three-bead galaxy may have started out like this:

NGC 1300 ESA Hubble annotated.png
Galaxy NGC 1300. You can see its core, its bar and its bar-end enhancement.
These are found where the bar-ends meet the spiral arms. They typically
contain a high amount of star formation.
When the galaxy grows old, the bar-end enhancements may remain bright.

NGC 936 VLT ESO annotated.png
We can still see the bar and the bar-end enhancements.

I'd say that NGC 936 is a good example of a real three-bead galaxy.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by orin stepanek » Thu Nov 02, 2023 11:35 pm

ClusterFornax1024.jpg
NGC1365; What a beauty! Upper Right!
Andromeda_on_the_rocksFattinnanzi950.jpg
Not seeing Andromeda here!
STScI-01GS812ZSR75EFTHTY2TP8YA5F.png
Ah! NGC1365 from JWST; so beautiful

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:56 pm

Pastorian wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:28 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:17 pm Besides the nice galaxies Ann pointed out above, this odd looking "three bead" galaxy caught my eye:

odd looking galaxy in the fornax cluster - three beads.png
I browsed the CDS Portal - I'm fairly sure the galaxy you're referring to is NGC 1380, position: 03 36 27.828 -34 58 33.85. The cause of the beaded appearance becomes more clear in this excellent HST image:
Yup, that's it alright, but it looks completely different in that center region closeup!
Another intriguing find from today's thread is the face-on spiral to the 10 o'clock of NGC 1427A in the HST image that Ann posted:

'''

Browsing the CDS Portal, it appears to be designated as 2MASX J03400430-3536514, and I would expect that it is not a part of the Fornax Cluster. Not sure yet how to determine distances from the data on the portal.
Yup, that's a nice one!
PS: CDS Portal (http://cdsportal.u-strasbg.fr/) is next level, bringing a whole interactive aspect for this armchair astronomer. Glad to have read about it on these boards a while back.
Nice. I'll save a link.

2MASX J03400430-3536514 at cdsportal.jpg

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Pastorian » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:28 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:17 pm Besides the nice galaxies Ann pointed out above, this odd looking "three bead" galaxy caught my eye:

odd looking galaxy in the fornax cluster - three beads.png
I browsed the CDS Portal - I'm fairly sure the galaxy you're referring to is NGC 1380, position: 03 36 27.828 -34 58 33.85. The cause of the beaded appearance becomes more clear in this excellent HST image: Another intriguing find from today's thread is the face-on spiral to the 10 o'clock of NGC 1427A in the HST image that Ann posted:
Ann wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:58 am Another hugely interesting galaxy of the Fornax Cluster is just barely seen in today's APOD, as a tiny arc-shaped blue little thing at the very bottom edge of the APOD, slightly to the right of center. This is NGC 1427A. You can see it a bit better here, at about 9 o'clock:
Browsing the CDS Portal, it appears to be designated as 2MASX J03400430-3536514, and I would expect that it is not a part of the Fornax Cluster. Not sure yet how to determine distances from the data on the portal.

PS: CDS Portal (http://cdsportal.u-strasbg.fr/) is next level, bringing a whole interactive aspect for this armchair astronomer. Glad to have read about it on these boards a while back.

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:23 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:13 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:53 pm
Roy wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:12 pm Ann’s explication seems to highlight several galaxy/cluster principal organization modes. Globe mode, spiral/rotational mode, and disorganized mode. Why is the cosmos organized thusly, as far as we can see?
Keep in mind that we're not seeing static structures, but bodies in complex orbits around each other. How they appear to our brief snapshot view is not representative of any real structure. It's transient. Come back in a few hundred million years and these clusters will look very different, with very different apparent structures.
Do elliptical, spiral and irregular galaxies morph into each other over time? Merging spirals can form ellipticals I think, but are there other transformations? Irregulars growing into either spirals or ellipticals?
There's a lot that isn't known about galaxy formation. But broadly, I don't think anything morphs into a spiral (unless it's a process very early in galaxy formation). It's possible that some non-spiral galaxies formed that way, but when a spiral is tidally disrupted, it commonly becomes an elliptical or irregular galaxy.

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:17 pm

Besides the nice galaxies Ann pointed out above, this odd looking "three bead" galaxy caught my eye:

odd looking galaxy in the fornax cluster - three beads.png

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by johnnydeep » Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:13 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:53 pm
Roy wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:12 pm Ann’s explication seems to highlight several galaxy/cluster principal organization modes. Globe mode, spiral/rotational mode, and disorganized mode. Why is the cosmos organized thusly, as far as we can see?
Keep in mind that we're not seeing static structures, but bodies in complex orbits around each other. How they appear to our brief snapshot view is not representative of any real structure. It's transient. Come back in a few hundred million years and these clusters will look very different, with very different apparent structures.
Do elliptical, spiral and irregular galaxies morph into each other over time? Merging spirals can form ellipticals I think, but are there other transformations? Irregulars growing into either spirals or ellipticals?

Re: APOD: The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies (2023 Nov 02)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:53 pm

Roy wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:12 pm Ann’s explication seems to highlight several galaxy/cluster principal organization modes. Globe mode, spiral/rotational mode, and disorganized mode. Why is the cosmos organized thusly, as far as we can see?
Keep in mind that we're not seeing static structures, but bodies in complex orbits around each other. How they appear to our brief snapshot view is not representative of any real structure. It's transient. Come back in a few hundred million years and these clusters will look very different, with very different apparent structures.

Top