APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Ann » Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:21 pm

snuggs28 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:33 pm I'm mostly passive on this board and just like reading the comments. But I do like my Star clusters.

Wait a minute on this remanent core talk. If it is a dwarf galaxy core. It had to be a real old galaxy. The estimated age of the Omega Centauri stars is from 10-12 billion years old. If that is the case, then this Dwarf Galaxy had to be a first or second-generation galaxy.

For the age of these starts, don't they have to be the most stable stars in the known Universe? Am I wrong in thinking this?
Very low-mass stars are extremely long-lived. It is possible or even probable that all remaining main sequence stars in Omega Centauri are in fact lower in mass than the Sun. Since the stars of Omega Centauri are also so metal-poor, they are going to be ”bluer for their mass” than a star of solar metallicity. And therefore they will look more massive than they are.

What I’m trying to say is that it is possible that all main sequence stars in Omega Centauri are in fact lower in mass than the Sun. If they had been as metal-rich as the Sun, they would have been orange in color, and we would have known that they were K-type main sequence stars more light-weight than the Sun. If, instead, they had been as massive than the Sun, they would either have turned into red giants by now, or else they would have become little white dwarf burnt-out cinders of their former selves.

Haven't there ever been really massive stars in the globular clusters? Sure there have! But maybe not in Omega Centauri, if it is the core of a dwarf galaxy, since galactic cores are often lacking in massive stars. Then again, it is indeed likely that even the yellow cores of galaxies were once the birthplaces of massive stars. But these ancient heavyweights all died long ago.

So the stars of old globular clusters are not extremely stable, but the remaining main sequence and giant stars are light-weight, and they are all metal-poor. And because they really are so metal-poor, we can be fooled into thinking that they are unusually long-lived for their mass. But they are not.

Ann

I hate that little plural-s on "birthplaces". Of course I missed it, because in my native Swedish we would use the singular form of the noun in that sentence. We would never say, for example, "They scratched their heads" but "They scratched their head". (Or, more precisely, we would say "They scratched themselves in the head".) Missing the plural-s on English nouns because I use the singular form of the corresponding noun in Swedish is one of the million little mistakes I risk making all the time when writing in English. If you only knew how many times I edit my posts!

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by snuggs28 » Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:33 pm

I'm mostly passive on this board and just like reading the comments. But I do like my Star clusters.

Wait a minute on this remanent core talk. If it is a dwarf galaxy core. It had to be a real old galaxy. The estimated age of the Omega Centauri stars is from 10-12 billion years old. If that is the case, then this Dwarf Galaxy had to be a first or second-generation galaxy.

For the age of these starts, don't they have to be the most stable stars in the known Universe? Am I wrong in thinking this?

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by zendae » Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:13 am

TY Chris and Ann.
Ann, that is too many stars to have in our sky for me lol..
I very much like night time, and the night sky.
It must be quite an energetic place for so many stars to be so near each other. Talk about turbulence - and the insane math that goes with it...
And the next wonderment: so if the Proxima Centauri family were 600 billion miles away instead if ~4 light years, would Earth care?

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:33 pm

Roy wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:29 pm M31, Andromeda, has over 500 Global Clusters, GCs. M87, according to a paper by John Huchra of Harvard, has approximately 20,000 GCs. No suggestion of them being leftover cores. I'll stick by my statement that there are too many GCs for them to originate by the stripping method imputed in the original description.
I find no such suggestion in today's caption.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Roy » Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:29 pm

M31, Andromeda, has over 500 Global Clusters, GCs. M87, according to a paper by John Huchra of Harvard, has approximately 20,000 GCs. No suggestion of them being leftover cores. I'll stick by my statement that there are too many GCs for them to originate by the stripping method imputed in the original description.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by johnnydeep » Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:28 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:43 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:24 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:20 pm
I am not. I'm suggesting that "leftover galaxy core" is a lousy term for it, and that it isn't even a globular cluster, except visually. My point is that there's no evidence that globular clusters (plural, in general) are "leftover galaxy cores".
Ok, but it seems the paper is arguing (or might be - I don't have full access) that it is indeed a "remnant galaxy core", which I take to be the same as a "left over galaxy core".
I don't think the two terms are really synonymous. But in any case, the important point is that this singular object is very different from other bodies we call "globular clusters".
Ok.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:44 pm

Roy wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:38 pm Some astronomers think there is a black hole in omega Centauri. Five others think that if that is so, it could be the center of a small galaxy stripped of its peripheral stars. They look in that area of the sky, and find 309 stars that seem to be of the same age as omega Centauri, in an arc pointed at the cluster. They name it "Fimbulthul". Lots of "what ifs" and conjecture and data selection in that logic sequence. Can it be falsified?
My original remark about "leftover" galaxy cores referred to a galaxy being stripped of all except the central core stars after it had passed through the large galaxy, on the way to becoming an orbiting globular cluster - that there were too many globular clusters for that process to be the source of them.
In this case remnant and leftover are substantially the same semantics.
As long as you are restricting the comment to this object, and only this object (not other globular clusters), fine.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Roy » Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:38 pm

Some astronomers think there is a black hole in omega Centauri. Five others think that if that is so, it could be the center of a small galaxy stripped of its peripheral stars. They look in that area of the sky, and find 309 stars that seem to be of the same age as omega Centauri, in an arc pointed at the cluster. They name it "Fimbulthul". Lots of "what ifs" and conjecture and data selection in that logic sequence. Can it be falsified?
My original remark about "leftover" galaxy cores referred to a galaxy being stripped of all except the central core stars after it had passed through the large galaxy, on the way to becoming an orbiting globular cluster - that there were too many globular clusters for that process to be the source of them.
In this case remnant and leftover are substantially the same semantics.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:43 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:24 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:20 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:56 pm

Well, doesn't it say that Omega Centauri is - or very well could be - the remnant core of a cannibalized galaxy? And aren't you arguing that it's not?
I am not. I'm suggesting that "leftover galaxy core" is a lousy term for it, and that it isn't even a globular cluster, except visually. My point is that there's no evidence that globular clusters (plural, in general) are "leftover galaxy cores".
Ok, but it seems the paper is arguing (or might be - I don't have full access) that it is indeed a "remnant galaxy core", which I take to be the same as a "left over galaxy core".
I don't think the two terms are really synonymous. But in any case, the important point is that this singular object is very different from other bodies we call "globular clusters".

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by johnnydeep » Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:24 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:20 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:56 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:46 pm
What of it?
Well, doesn't it say that Omega Centauri is - or very well could be - the remnant core of a cannibalized galaxy? And aren't you arguing that it's not?
I am not. I'm suggesting that "leftover galaxy core" is a lousy term for it, and that it isn't even a globular cluster, except visually. My point is that there's no evidence that globular clusters (plural, in general) are "leftover galaxy cores".
Ok, but it seems the paper is arguing (or might be - I don't have full access) that it is indeed a "remnant galaxy core", which I take to be the same as a "left over galaxy core".

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:20 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:56 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:46 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:42 pm

What of this paper then - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-019-0751-x

What of it?
Well, doesn't it say that Omega Centauri is - or very well could be - the remnant core of a cannibalized galaxy? And aren't you arguing that it's not?
I am not. I'm suggesting that "leftover galaxy core" is a lousy term for it, and that it isn't even a globular cluster, except visually. My point is that there's no evidence that globular clusters (plural, in general) are "leftover galaxy cores".

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by johnnydeep » Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:56 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:46 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:42 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:03 pm

I would not characterize the remnant of a collision as a "leftover galaxy core"! In any case, the hypothesis that Omega Centauri isn't a "true" globular cluster, but rather something left from a collision, is based on the observation that its stellar population looks very different from that of other globular clusters... the overwhelming majority of which present stellar populations that look nothing like galaxy cores.
What of this paper then - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-019-0751-x
Abstract
Omega Centauri (ω Cen) is the Milky Way’s most massive globular cluster, and has long been suspected of being the remnant core of an accreted dwarf galaxy. If this scenario is correct, ω Cen should be tidally limited and tidal debris should be spread along its orbit. Here we use N-body simulations to show that the recently discovered ‘Fimbulthul’ structure is the long-sought-for tidal stream of ω Cen, extending up to 28° from the cluster. Follow-up high-resolution spectroscopy of five stream stars shows that they are closely grouped in velocity, and have metallicities consistent with having originated in that cluster. Informed by our N-body simulations, we devise a selection filter that we apply to Gaia mission data to also uncover the stream in the highly contaminated and crowded field within 10° of ω Cen. Further modelling of the stream may help to constrain the dynamical history of the dwarf galaxy progenitor of this disrupting system and guide future searches for its remnant stars in the Milky Way.
What of it?
Well, doesn't it say that Omega Centauri is - or very well could be - the remnant core of a cannibalized galaxy? And aren't you arguing that it's not?

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:46 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:42 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:03 pm
Ann wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:57 pm

I take it that there is some evidence that Omega Centauri is?

Ann
I would not characterize the remnant of a collision as a "leftover galaxy core"! In any case, the hypothesis that Omega Centauri isn't a "true" globular cluster, but rather something left from a collision, is based on the observation that its stellar population looks very different from that of other globular clusters... the overwhelming majority of which present stellar populations that look nothing like galaxy cores.
What of this paper then - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-019-0751-x
Abstract
Omega Centauri (ω Cen) is the Milky Way’s most massive globular cluster, and has long been suspected of being the remnant core of an accreted dwarf galaxy. If this scenario is correct, ω Cen should be tidally limited and tidal debris should be spread along its orbit. Here we use N-body simulations to show that the recently discovered ‘Fimbulthul’ structure is the long-sought-for tidal stream of ω Cen, extending up to 28° from the cluster. Follow-up high-resolution spectroscopy of five stream stars shows that they are closely grouped in velocity, and have metallicities consistent with having originated in that cluster. Informed by our N-body simulations, we devise a selection filter that we apply to Gaia mission data to also uncover the stream in the highly contaminated and crowded field within 10° of ω Cen. Further modelling of the stream may help to constrain the dynamical history of the dwarf galaxy progenitor of this disrupting system and guide future searches for its remnant stars in the Milky Way.
What of it?

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by johnnydeep » Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:42 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:03 pm
Ann wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:57 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:59 pm

There is no evidence that globular clusters are "leftover galaxy cores".
I take it that there is some evidence that Omega Centauri is?

Ann
I would not characterize the remnant of a collision as a "leftover galaxy core"! In any case, the hypothesis that Omega Centauri isn't a "true" globular cluster, but rather something left from a collision, is based on the observation that its stellar population looks very different from that of other globular clusters... the overwhelming majority of which present stellar populations that look nothing like galaxy cores.
What of this paper then - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-019-0751-x
Abstract
Omega Centauri (ω Cen) is the Milky Way’s most massive globular cluster, and has long been suspected of being the remnant core of an accreted dwarf galaxy. If this scenario is correct, ω Cen should be tidally limited and tidal debris should be spread along its orbit. Here we use N-body simulations to show that the recently discovered ‘Fimbulthul’ structure is the long-sought-for tidal stream of ω Cen, extending up to 28° from the cluster. Follow-up high-resolution spectroscopy of five stream stars shows that they are closely grouped in velocity, and have metallicities consistent with having originated in that cluster. Informed by our N-body simulations, we devise a selection filter that we apply to Gaia mission data to also uncover the stream in the highly contaminated and crowded field within 10° of ω Cen. Further modelling of the stream may help to constrain the dynamical history of the dwarf galaxy progenitor of this disrupting system and guide future searches for its remnant stars in the Milky Way.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:03 pm

Ann wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:57 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:59 pm
Roy wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:47 pm Globular clusters are leftover galaxy cores? The 2010 count of them was 157. We see large numbers of them in the Andromeda galaxy, and other galaxies. So, based on that number crunching, clusters are two or three orders of magnitude more common than galaxies.
There is no evidence that globular clusters are "leftover galaxy cores".
I take it that there is some evidence that Omega Centauri is?

Ann
I would not characterize the remnant of a collision as a "leftover galaxy core"! In any case, the hypothesis that Omega Centauri isn't a "true" globular cluster, but rather something left from a collision, is based on the observation that its stellar population looks very different from that of other globular clusters... the overwhelming majority of which present stellar populations that look nothing like galaxy cores.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Ann » Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:57 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:59 pm
Roy wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:47 pm Globular clusters are leftover galaxy cores? The 2010 count of them was 157. We see large numbers of them in the Andromeda galaxy, and other galaxies. So, based on that number crunching, clusters are two or three orders of magnitude more common than galaxies.
There is no evidence that globular clusters are "leftover galaxy cores".
I take it that there is some evidence that Omega Centauri is?

Ann

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Ann » Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:16 pm

zendae wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:37 pm I've asked this before re the Hercules cluster: do astronomers know the approximate distance between the closest stars to each other here? They seem to know the approximate number of stars, and the size and distance of the structure. I'm assuming things are not homogeneous tho: some stars are relatively closer to each other than others.
It certainly is a good representation of how close stars appear to be to each other from our visual perspective, yet how far they actually are from each other, and both how great and miniscule the span of distance a light year is.

If we were viewing from the center of this, I do wonder what the "sky" would look like compared to ours.
Wikipedia wrote:
The stars in the core of Omega Centauri are so crowded that they are estimated to average only 0.1 light-year away from each other.

Here is a picture of what it might look like to to be inside a globular cluster (in this case, 47 Tuc):


Ann

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:07 pm

zendae wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:37 pm I've asked this before re the Hercules cluster: do astronomers know the approximate distance between the closest stars to each other here? They seem to know the approximate number of stars, and the size and distance of the structure. I'm assuming things are not homogeneous tho: some stars are relatively closer to each other than others.
It certainly is a good representation of how close stars appear to be to each other from our visual perspective, yet how far they actually are from each other, and both how great and miniscule the span of distance a light year is.

If we were viewing from the center of this, I do wonder what the "sky" would look like compared to ours.
Globular clusters are not static structures. All of the stars are moving with respect to each other. So the best way to understand this is in terms of density, not distance. There's a density gradient, with more stars per unit volume near the center than at the outside. In general, these gradients are easy to measure, and the total number of stars is easy to estimate with pretty good accuracy. And, the orbital dynamics are well understood and readily modeled. So usually the structure of globular clusters is pretty well described, including the average range of distances between nearby stars in different parts of a cluster.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by zendae » Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:37 pm

I've asked this before re the Hercules cluster: do astronomers know the approximate distance between the closest stars to each other here? They seem to know the approximate number of stars, and the size and distance of the structure. I'm assuming things are not homogeneous tho: some stars are relatively closer to each other than others.
It certainly is a good representation of how close stars appear to be to each other from our visual perspective, yet how far they actually are from each other, and both how great and miniscule the span of distance a light year is.

If we were viewing from the center of this, I do wonder what the "sky" would look like compared to ours.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:59 pm

Roy wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:47 pm Globular clusters are leftover galaxy cores? The 2010 count of them was 157. We see large numbers of them in the Andromeda galaxy, and other galaxies. So, based on that number crunching, clusters are two or three orders of magnitude more common than galaxies.
There is no evidence that globular clusters are "leftover galaxy cores".

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by pclark@bigpond.net.au » Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:56 pm

Omega Centauri is reported to contain a black hole. A study in 2008 provided evidence for an intermediate-mass black hole at the center of Omega Centauri, based on observations made by the Hubble Space Telescope and the Gemini Observatory. The black hole is estimated to be roughly 40,000 times the mass of the Sun. This finding is significant because it suggests a continuous range of black hole masses, from small stellar types to supermassive. Is this information correct?

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Roy » Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:47 pm

Globular clusters are leftover galaxy cores? The 2010 count of them was 157. We see large numbers of them in the Andromeda galaxy, and other galaxies. So, based on that number crunching, clusters are two or three orders of magnitude more common than galaxies.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:34 pm

smitty wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:08 pm Is gravitational attraction causing the stars to move toward the center of the cluster? If not, why not?
For the same reason that the gravitational attraction of the Sun isn't causing the Earth and other planets to move towards the center of the Solar System. They're in orbit. (Of course, we can understand orbits as "falling" in towards the dominant mass, but never reaching it because of the tangential motion component.)

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by Christian G. » Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:21 pm

In his unique style Richard Feynman wrote that globular clusters are one of the most beautiful things in the sky, adding "If one cannot see gravitation acting here, he has no soul."

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2024 Mar 28)

by smitty » Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:08 pm

Is gravitational attraction causing the stars to move toward the center of the cluster? If not, why not?

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