Orca's avatar discussion

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makc
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Orca's avatar discussion

Post by makc » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:50 am

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@Orca in a way, Alderaan did shot 1st by supporting anti-government terrorists.

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Re: Avatars (not the blue people)

Post by Orca » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:28 pm

makc wrote:@Orca in a way, Alderaan did shot 1st by supporting anti-government terrorists.
I know, right? :mrgreen:

So I heard that originally, Jedi was going to take place on the Wookie homeworld. What a shame. I think that 8 foot hairy guys with 'blasters' would have been more dramatic than 3 foot hairy guys throwing rocks. Also, the "Ewok thrashing" casts serious doubt that Imperial Storm Troopers were tough enough to have taken over the galaxy. The Emperor referred to the ones he sent to Endor as "an entire legion of my best troops..."

But hey, you get soft when you're on top, right? Maybe most Storm Troopers got to the point of just using their armor to impress green women?

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Re: Avatars (not the blue people)

Post by makc » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:03 am

Orca wrote:the "Ewok thrashing" casts serious doubt that Imperial Storm Troopers were tough enough to have taken over the galaxy.
if I remember correctly, they weren't really used for that - the Emperor simply bought the majority in senate to vote for empire. Given this layout, Emperor had no true power over galaxy: we see numerous planets runned by local authorities who do not give a shіt about Emperor (they maybe pay taxes, but I'd guess no more that they payed to old republic). that's really why Emperor feels the need to build death star; the fact that he can dismiss the senate afterwards is simply nice side effect, not the goal itself... and storm troopers were pretty useless all along, there was that fictional troopers-vs-droids war that they did not win (it just ended once they turned droids off), and after that, I guess, they were used to build star destroyers and play human tetris.

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Re: Avatars (not the blue people)

Post by Orca » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:38 pm

Yeah, I'll buy that. Though I imagine the Imperial Navy held a lot of sway, enough to keep any individual system from "getting ideas." But yeah, that was definitely the reason for the Death Star.

I think there are interesting parallels with Lucas' Empire and the Romans; the shift from Republic to Empire, for example. One flaw with this idea: though the Storm Troopers often looked weak, the effectiveness of the professional army of Imperial Rome was a major reason for Rome's success. Ultimately I think that the weakness of Storm Troopers really comes down to a plot device. In Episode 4, Obi Wan makes the observation, "...blast damage, too accurate for Sand People. Only Storm Troopers are so precise." Yet whenever a main character is in the direct line of sight of n Storm Troopers, precision goes out nearest window. Er, I mean, airlock.

On a side note, apparently one of the first solutions the Romans came up with for dealing with enemy war elephants was to use chariots with cables to trip them. Hmm, sounds familiar...

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Re: Avatars (not the blue people)

Post by makc » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:16 pm

Orca wrote:...Only Storm Troopers are so precise." Yet whenever a main character is in the direct line of sight of n Storm Troopers, precision goes out nearest window.
I thought to explain that by force interference, but then Ben said he can't help Luke to fight Vader... I don't know what to suggest here :( we need some brainstorm troopers.
Orca wrote:On a side note, apparently one of the first solutions the Romans came up with for dealing with enemy war elephants was to use chariots with cables to trip them. Hmm, sounds familiar...
except the side is wrong: elephants were in carthagian army, which aligns with rebels in your analogy.

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Re: Avatars (not the blue people)

Post by Orca » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:05 am

makc wrote:
Orca wrote:...Only Storm Troopers are so precise." Yet whenever a main character is in the direct line of sight of n Storm Troopers, precision goes out nearest window.
I thought to explain that by force interference, but then Ben said he can't help Luke to fight Vader... I don't know what to suggest here :( we need some brainstorm troopers.
Yeah, I took it all as the "good side of the Force" helps overcome the "dark side" no matter the odds. Of course, then it becomes almost like a religious debate, and I then I can't help but ask things like: "Ah, so where was the 'good side' when all this 'dark side running amok' stuff was happening...ah, you know how it goes.
Orca wrote:On a side note, apparently one of the first solutions the Romans came up with for dealing with enemy war elephants was to use chariots with cables to trip them. Hmm, sounds familiar...
except the side is wrong: elephants were in carthagian army, which aligns with rebels in your analogy.
Well, there aren't any perfect parallels in the analogy. I just thought that the event in particular was interesting. Who knows if Lucas even knew that such a thing actually occurred in history. Legged beasts, metal or biological, could be brought down in similar fashion. I do feel bad for the poor elephants though...

OK, one last thing. The mathematical equation that explains Storm Trooper aim:

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(source)
Star Wars Hit Probability Equation: The probability of a bad guy hitting his target is equal to the inverse of all bad guys present plus the cube of the number of good guys present (plus one) plus the number of Jedi present (plus one) to the 10th power.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... hipAcademy
Last edited by Orca on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: breaking referrer protection of image

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Re: Avatars (not the blue people)

Post by makc » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:26 am

that probability is always less than or equal to 1/3 - that speaks a lot about sand people. how would one interpret max P(n=0) = 1/2 is also a mystery.

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Re: Avatars (not the blue people)

Post by Orca » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:06 pm

There must be a different equation for Tie Fighter pilots; they seemed to hit their targets more often. Unless they are simultaneously dodging asteroids of course.

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Re: Orca's avatar discussion

Post by makc » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:51 am

That's probably due to computer-aided aiming.

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Re: Orca's avatar discussion

Post by Orca » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:26 pm

makc wrote:That's probably due to computer-aided aiming.
Not sure about that. The shots looked pretty random; just at a really fast rate of fire. The computer display didn't look like much more than an aiming reticle. The guns on the Millennium Falcon looked about as random as the machine guns on a B-17.

Also, you'd think that had they used that type of technology they could have integrated augmented reality devices into the helmets.

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Re: Orca's avatar discussion

Post by makc » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:19 pm

Orca wrote:...you'd think that had they used that type of technology they could...
I guess the main reason they wouldn't is to keep the equipment reasonably priced. ak47 may not be the most sophisticated gun in the world, but it's cheap - and there you go, everyone uses it. same here, no amount of taxes would buy enough expensive tie fighters. they have to be cheap so that empire could afford their production in significant quantities. that's why computer devices are primitive, but as long as they improve pilot's aim by small %, it still makes sense to have them.

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Re: Orca's avatar discussion

Post by Orca » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:42 am

I suppose that's true, even though the Empire obviously has vast resources. After all, it's clear that they considered individual Storm Troopers and Tie pilots to be completely expendable.

In fact the helmet design may be for "psychological warfare" since there are no technological advantages that outweigh the obvious physical limitations, such as reduced peripheral vision and limited protection.

Another interesting element from the movie is the idea of a big state "putting all its eggs in one basket." In history or in fiction, when a faction builds some "super weapon," they are really only asking for attention. For example, in World War 2 when the Germans built the Bismarck, the end result is that the Allies make a major point to sink it. Likewise, the Death Star is really only a juicy target; even that "Super Star Destroyer" from Jedi became the obvious target that the Rebels would try to destroy.

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Re: Orca's avatar discussion

Post by makc » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:08 am

Orca wrote:...the helmet design [with] obvious physical limitations, such as reduced peripheral vision and limited protection.
Blasphemy!
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Watch him walk like nothing happened.

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Re: Orca's avatar discussion

Post by Orca » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:45 am

I said "limited protection." Anything more powerful than clipping a door jam and he's toast! :mrgreen:
Last edited by Orca on Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Orca's avatar discussion

Post by neufer » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:04 pm

Orca wrote:Another interesting element from the movie is the idea of a big state "putting all its eggs in one basket." In history or in fiction, when a faction builds some "super weapon," they are really only asking for attention. For example, in World War 2 when the Germans built the Bismarck, the end result is that the Allies make a major point to sink it.

Likewise, the Death Star is really only a juicy target;
even that "Super Star Destroyer" from Jedi became the obvious target that the Rebels would try to destroy.
ImageImage
___________ The Executor in 2007 ____________________ The Tomato in Dark Star (1974)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismarck_class_battleship wrote:
<<The Bismarck-class battleships were a pair of battleships built by Germany around the onset of World War II. In terms of full-load displacement, the Bismarck-class ships (50,900 tons) were the fourth-largest battleships ever completed, behind the Japanese Yamato-class (71,659 tons), the American Iowa-class and the Royal Navy's HMS Vanguard. Bismarck was scuttled or sunk during combat with the Royal Navy in the North Atlantic in 1941 on its first sortie against merchant shipping. The Tirpitz was hidden for most of her career in Norwegian fjords, acting as a Fleet in being, threatening the Murmansk convoys. The RN and RAF made numerous attempts to sink her, and she eventually capsized and sank at her mooring after being hit with Tallboy bombs from Royal Air Force bombers in late 1944.>>
ImageImage
______ The Bismarck in 1940 _______________________ The Yamato in 1941
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamato wrote:
<<Yamato (大和), named after the ancient Japanese Yamato Province, was the lead ship of the Yamato class of battleships that served with the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II. She and her sister ship, Musashi, were the largest, heaviest and most powerfully armed battleships ever constructed, displacing 72,800 tonnes at full load and armed with nine 46 cm (18.1 inch) main guns. However, neither survived the war.

Laid down in 1937 and formally commissioned in late 1941, Yamato was designed to counter the numerically superior battleship fleet of the United States—Japan's main rival in the Pacific. Throughout 1942 she served as the flagship of the Japanese Combined Fleet, and in June 1942 Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto directed the fleet from her bridge during the disastrous Battle of Midway. Although she was present at the Battle of the Philippine Sea in June 1944, Yamato played no part in the battle. The only time she fired her main guns at enemy surface targets was in October 1944, when she was sent to engage American forces invading the Philippines during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. On the verge of success the Japanese force turned back, believing they were engaging an entire US carrier fleet rather than the light escort-carrier group that was all that stood between Yamato and the vulnerable troop transports.

During 1944 the balance of naval power in the Pacific decisively turned against Japan, and by early 1945 the Japanese fleet was a shadow of its former self and critically short of fuel, limiting its usefulness. In a desperate attempt to slow the Allied advance, in April 1945 Yamato was despatched on a one-way voyage to Okinawa, where it was intended that she should protect the island from invasion and fight until destroyed. However, her task force was spotted by US submarines and aircraft, and on 7 April she was sunk by American carrier-based bombers and torpedo bombers with the loss of most of her crew.>>
Art Neuendorffer

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Orca
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Re: Orca's avatar discussion

Post by Orca » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:54 pm

Wow, I didn't realize the Japanese had battleships that large. I wonder: if missile technology had not taken over - negating the need for large guns - what the largest feasible size would have grown to?

But anyway, the Bismarck had a shocking start, for the British at any rate. I remember a documentary on Bismarck and its first major engagement with the British flagship HMS Hood. The Hood was destroyed in just a few minutes:
Wikipedia wrote:Bismarck only took part in one operation during her brief career. She and the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen left Gotenhafen (Gdynia) on the morning of 19 May 1941 for Operation Rheinübung, during which she was to have attempted to intercept and destroy convoys in transit between North America and Great Britain. When Bismarck and Prinz Eugen attempted to break out into the Atlantic, the two ships were discovered by the Royal Navy and brought to battle in the Denmark Strait. During the short engagement, the British battlecruiser HMS Hood, flagship of the Home Fleet and pride of the Royal Navy, was sunk after several minutes of firing. In response, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill issued the order to "Sink the Bismarck,"[3] spurring a relentless pursuit by the Royal Navy.
According to interviews on the show, the British were quite disturbed; they'd considered themselves the primer ocean power for a long time. Apparently the Hood was destroyed when a shell penetrated the armor and hit a munitions storage compartment. One thing to keep in mind: the Hood was much older - constructed during WW1 - and had much weaker armor.