How did this Happen?

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The Code
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How did this Happen?

Post by The Code » Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:24 pm

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Chris Peterson
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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:43 pm

mark swain wrote:How Did This Happen?
http://woodside.blogs.com/cosmologycuri ... mology.jpg
I would assume that this is the end result of a collision between two galaxies, each with its own supermassive black hole.
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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by bystander » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:04 pm

mark swain wrote:How Did This Happen?
How did what happen?

http://www.astro.utu.fi/news/080419.shtml
The outstanding question really is why we haven't discovered more cases like OJ287 yet.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13166
Just how big can black holes get? ... There is no theoretical upper limit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OJ287

http://woodside.blogs.com/cosmologycuri ... ack-h.html

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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by The Code » Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:42 pm

bystander wrote:How did what happen?
How did these black holes, devour their galaxies in 10 billion years?
But its not as simple as all that. There is a lot more to it.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... vered.html

18 billion solar masses. + 100 million solar mass = How many galaxies? How long does it take to merge 10 galaxies? But even so, Mr Chris P said him self, Black holes do not feed very fast. A finite time for black hole growth?

Our galaxy has had a massive black hole for 13.7 billion years. What is different?
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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by bystander » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:05 pm

mark swain wrote:How did these black holes, devour their galaxies in 10 billion years?
Where did you get this idea? Where does it say these black holes have devoured their galaxies?. As Chris said above, these two black holes probably are in close proximity because of the merger of galaxies. These black holes will soon merge. The larger black hole is probably the survivor of previous mergers.

http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 31&t=18335

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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by The Code » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:22 pm

bystander wrote:Where did you get this idea? Where does it say these black holes have devoured their galaxies?.
How do you explain the size, compared to the norm?
Chris Peterson wrote:
mark swain wrote:How Did This Happen?
http://woodside.blogs.com/cosmologycuri ... mology.jpg
I would assume that this is the end result of a collision between two galaxies, each with its own supermassive black hole.
18.1 billion solar masses does not come from 2 galaxies.
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BMAONE23
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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by BMAONE23 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:55 pm

According to this the Milky way contains between 200 and 400 billion stars some of which contain 1 solar mass and others up to 100. It is very likely that the merger of several galaxies could result in an 18 billion solar mass BH

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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by bystander » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:01 pm

Wikipedia estimates the mass of the Milky Way at 3 trillion solar masses, and it is not an exceptionally large galaxy.

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BMAONE23
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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by BMAONE23 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:08 pm

Well that places the average stellar neighborhood at between 7 & 15 solar masses though some of the mass is in planetary bodies and some in interstellar gasses and dust. I guess our sun is a stellar lightweight

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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by bystander » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:10 pm

mark swain wrote:How do you explain the size, compared to the norm?
What's the norm? As to the size, read the rest of my post above.
mark swain wrote:18.1 billion solar masses does not come from 2 galaxies.
Since you did not specify your question, I suspect Chris was responding to how one BH came to be orbiting another.

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Chris Peterson
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Re: How did this Happen?

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:18 pm

mark swain wrote:How did these black holes, devour their galaxies in 10 billion years?
They didn't. OJ 287 is an active galaxy. It isn't an object that has been reduced to a pair of supermassive black holes orbiting each other. It is not that difficult to explain as the simple merger of a pair of galaxies, each with its own supermassive black hole. The contents of the two galaxies haven't gone anywhere, but still exist as the contents of the merged pair. This newer galaxy simply has a pair of supermassive black holes at its center, instead of the usual one.
18 billion solar masses. + 100 million solar mass = How many galaxies? How long does it take to merge 10 galaxies? But even so, Mr Chris P said him self, Black holes do not feed very fast. A finite time for black hole growth?
Black holes don't feed fast. But the mechanism by which the supermassive black holes found at the center of most galaxies initially formed is not yet well understood. It did not necessarily involve their growth by accretion as we now see it. These black holes may have formed quite quickly by different processes altogether. This includes the most massive cases, as well. 18 billion solar masses is still much less than the mass of many galaxies. I see no reason to assume that very massive black holes necessarily formed from multiple galactic mergers, or that they required an extraordinary amount of time to form. There are reasonable theories that explain their existence, even if those theories need more work.
Chris

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