Many universes moving around a central point

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babaonet
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Many universes moving around a central point

Post by babaonet » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:47 am

We observed that everything revolving around a central point in the universe. Such as the earth and other planets revolving around its center, the sun. Moons too revolving its mother planets. All the stars in the galaxies also revolving galaxy' central point. Now its proved that there is huge black hole in the center of our own galaxy, Milky Way. It could be true to other galaxies too. So, my question is that, is it possible that there are many universes and they are also moving around an unknown body??

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Re: Many universes moving around a central point

Post by Markus Schwarz » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:28 pm

babaonet wrote:We observed that everything revolving around a central point in the universe.
We have observed redshifts, which, together with the general theory of relativity, lead us to conclude that the universe is expanding. We have not observed that "everything revolves around a central point".
babaonet wrote:So, my question is that, is it possible that there are many universes and they are also moving around an unknown body??
Your question is ill defined. First of all, we don't know if other universes even exist. Even if they do exists, how could we exchange information with them? The list of questions continues...

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Ann
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Re: Many universes moving around a central point

Post by Ann » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:07 am

babaonet wrote:
We observed that everything revolving around a central point in the universe. Such as the earth and other planets revolving around its center, the sun. Moons too revolving its mother planets. All the stars in the galaxies also revolving galaxy' central point. Now its proved that there is huge black hole in the center of our own galaxy, Milky Way.
Much of what you say here is correct. It is indeed true that the planets in our solar system revolve around the Sun (or rather, the Sun and the planets revolve around their common center of gravity). The Moon orbits the Earth, or rather, the Earth and Moon revolve around their common center of gravity. And the stars in the Milky Way are indeed in orbit around the center of gravity of our galaxy.

But I have never heard that everything revolves around a central point in the universe. I have never heard that there is any sort of general orbital motion of galaxies, so that they all orbit around a central point.
Image
The structure of the universe is usually portrayed like this. You can see a myriad of filaments and smallish darker "voids". The filaments represent chains of galaxy clusters, or rather, they represent parts of the universe where the "density of galaxies" is high. The "voids" represent parts of the unvierse where the density of galaxies is low.

So, babaonet, do you think this structure looks as if it is rotating? It sure doesn't look that way to me.
In the "purple" picture above, there is indeed a bright point in the middle. This bright point represents a particularly massive cluster of galaxies. However, the fact that there is a bright point in the center of the picture is probably nothing more than an aesthetic choice made by those who produced the picture - they probably thought the picture looked more "well-balanced" that way.

Take a look at this "blue" picture of a computer simulation of the structure of the universe. (Please note that the choice of color is arbitrary.) In this picture there is no "bright central point". There are, however, many different "bright red points", which represent localized concentrations of mass in the universe.

We have no evidence that the universe is rotating. We see no sign of all the galaxies revolving around around a central point. On the other hand, if our universe as a whole were to rotate - not the galaxies inside the universe, but our universe itself - we might never know it. The Earth is revolving around the Sun, but we certainly can't "feel" any rotational motion. We can see that we are rotating, however, because we can see that the sky appears to change. But if our universe as a whole is rotating, what can we compare our motion with? How do you know that you are rotating if you have nothing to compare your motion with?

Astronomers see no general rotational trends of galaxy clusters, when they compare galaxy clusters with other galaxy clusters in the universe. There is just no such general rotation to be seen, when we compare the motion of individual clusters of galaxies in the universe.

But what if our universe if only one universe of many? Might our universe as a whole be rotating, compared with other universes?

Maybe. But we can't know. We don't even know if there are any other universes in the first place, much less if our own universe is rotating in relation to them.

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Re: Many universes moving around a central point

Post by Ann » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:22 am

One more thing, babaonet. When things orbit around a central point, you usually see a strong concentration of (ordinary) mass near the central point of rotation.
Image
Take a look at this picture of our solar system. This picture is not to scale, but it does underscore an important fact: Most of the mass of the solar system is contained in the center of it, in the Sun.


Image


In a globular cluster, the stars orbit around their common center of mass. The density of stars is usually greater closer to the center of the globular.



Image


This is an ultraviolet image of the Andromeda galaxy, which doesn't detect the high concentration of cool stars in the galaxy's bulge. But it does detect the concentration of stars and the ultraviolet emission at the center of the galaxy.

Image
In a cluster of galaxies, the density of galaxies is usually greatest near the center of the cluster.

Image
But when astronomers try to "map" the distribution of galaxies in the universe, they see no obvious concentration of galaxies anywhere in the sky. In short, the see no "central mass concentration". Or more precisely, they see no center.









Ann
Last edited by Ann on Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Many universes moving around a central point

Post by The Code » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:07 pm

Ann wrote:But I have never heard that everything revolves around a central point in the universe. I have never heard that there is any sort of general orbital motion of galaxies, so that they all orbit around a central point.

Oh, What do you make of this then Ann ?

Quote : Physicists and astronomers have long believed that the universe has mirror symmetry, like a basketball. But recent findings from the University of Michigan suggest that the shape of the Big Bang might be more complicated than previously thought, and that the early universe spun on an axis.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 ... s-yes.html

If this were all true, (And as Its Me, I'm sure it is) Then you could all most think there would be one extreme huge body in the middle Huh ? Something to (46 billion light year Dark Flow) ponder about me thinks. :ssmile:

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Re: Many universes moving around a central point

Post by Markus Schwarz » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:41 pm

The Code wrote: Oh, What do you make of this then[...]?
Thank you for the article!

Just to be clear: the article (Phys. Lett. B. vol. 699 p. 224-229) is about the rotation axes of spiral galaxies, not about galaxies rotating around a common center (let alone other universes). So, there is still no center around which all galaxies rotate. However, it was found that these axes seem to be aligned, which would break the isotropy of the universe by singling out a certain direction.

It will be interesting to see how this develops in the future.

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Re: Many universes moving around a central point

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:44 pm

The Code wrote:Quote : Physicists and astronomers have long believed that the universe has mirror symmetry, like a basketball. But recent findings from the University of Michigan suggest that the shape of the Big Bang might be more complicated than previously thought, and that the early universe spun on an axis.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 ... s-yes.html

If this were all true, (And as Its Me, I'm sure it is) Then you could all most think there would be one extreme huge body in the middle Huh ? Something to (46 billion light year Dark Flow) ponder about me thinks.
No, I would never conclude from this that there is some "huge body in the middle". If you look at the work, you'll see that "rotation" doesn't even imply a rotation point in 3D space. It's a mathematical concept that is rather different from "rotation" in the sense of something like a ball spinning on its axis.

Of course, even if the Universe has some sort of "spin", it doesn't require any central mass. Spinning isn't the same as orbiting. Most things spin, but few things orbit.
Chris

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Re: Many universes moving around a central point

Post by BMAONE23 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:48 pm

There is one way to infer spin momentum and that is the kinetic effect it has on the spinning mass. If you were sensory deprived and placed in a spacesuit in the middle of the vast (not quite so) emptiness of outer space, then you were to begin spinning, you would have no sensory input to tell you that you were spinning (no visual changes, no gravity to have an effect on you). But there would be a motion inherent in spinning that would be apparent, the kinetic energy induced by the spinning motion that you would sense in your arms. As you spin, your body would want to spread out in response to this (dark energy) motion.

Perhaps the Dark Energy induced expansion of the universe is akin to the kinetic energy produced in a spinning body or possibly the product of a spinning universe

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Re: Many universes moving around a central point

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:55 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:There is one way to infer spin momentum and that is the kinetic effect it has on the spinning mass. If you were sensory deprived and placed in a spacesuit in the middle of the vast (not quite so) emptiness of outer space, then you were to begin spinning, you would have no sensory input to tell you that you were spinning (no visual changes, no gravity to have an effect on you). But there would be a motion inherent in spinning that would be apparent, the kinetic energy induced by the spinning motion that you would sense in your arms. As you spin, your body would want to spread out in response to this (dark energy) motion.
It's not a matter of kinetic energy (which you also have if you are moving linearly), but of the difference between accelerated and non-accelerated frames of reference. If you are in a spinning system, that is an accelerated frame, and you can (theoretically) detect that. Of course, even if you observed an unexplained force acting on a mass, you may not be able to determine if it comes from an actual acceleration or from a distortion of spacetime (gravity).

When you consider a spinning Universe, the situation becomes a lot trickier. That's because most spinning universe models assume the spin axis exists in four dimensions (at least). That means that the "center" of the spin is outside the 3D Universe as we see it, and the "force" that is produced by acceleration can manifest itself in non-intuitive and non-obvious ways. That's the sort of thing they are looking for with patterns in galaxy rotation, for instance.
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