CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

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CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by bystander » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:11 pm

Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"
Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astronomy | 2017 Jan 06
[img3="This artist's conception portrays a collection of planet-mass objects that have been flung out of the galactic center at speeds of 20 million miles per hour (10,000 km/s). These cosmic "spitballs" formed from fragments of a star that was shredded by the galaxy's supermassive black hole. Credit: Mark A. Garlick/CfA"]https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/sites/www.c ... 1/base.jpg[/img3][hr][/hr]
Every few thousand years, an unlucky star wanders too close to the black hole at the center of the Milky Way. The black hole's powerful gravity rips the star apart, sending a long streamer of gas whipping outward. That would seem to be the end of the story, but it's not. New research shows that not only can the gas gather itself into planet-size objects, but those objects then are flung throughout the galaxy in a game of cosmic "spitball."

"A single shredded star can form hundreds of these planet-mass objects. We wondered: Where do they end up? How close do they come to us? We developed a computer code to answer those questions," says Eden Girma ...

Girma's calculations show that the closest of these planet-mass objects might be within a few hundred light-years of Earth. It would have a weight somewhere between Neptune and several Jupiters. It would also glow from the heat of its formation, although not brightly enough to have been detected by previous surveys. Future instruments like the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope and James Webb Space Telescope might spot these far-flung oddities.

She also finds that the vast majority of the planet-mass objects - 95 percent - will leave the galaxy entirely due to their speeds of about 20 million miles per hour (10,000 km/s). Since most other galaxies also have giant black holes at their cores, it’s likely that the same process is at work in them. ...
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Earthandsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:49 pm

Does that mean one or more of our planets might have come from another galaxy?

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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:54 pm

Earthandsky wrote:Does that mean one or more of our planets might have come from another galaxy?
The likelihood that the planets in any given system (such as our own) came from anywhere other than the formation of that system is extremely small. But the galaxy is full of rogue planets- almost all formed in systems within our galaxy, but possibly a few ejected from other galaxies and either captured or passing through on hyperbolic orbits.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Earthandsky » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:32 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:Does that mean one or more of our planets might have come from another galaxy?
The likelihood that the planets in any given system (such as our own) came from anywhere other than the formation of that system is extremely small. But the galaxy is full of rogue planets- almost all formed in systems within our galaxy, but possibly a few ejected from other galaxies and either captured or passing through on hyperbolic orbits.
The likelihood may be extremely small if we calculate numbers and formation theory known even 10 years ago, but that likelihood has increased a LOT since the discovery of just how many rogue planets are roaming around. "The Milky Way alone could have billions of rogue planets." Wiki. That article seems to have been written before this latest discovery of Black Holes and spitball planets, so again, the number increases a HUGE amount.

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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Earthandsky » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:36 pm

Earthandsky wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:Does that mean one or more of our planets might have come from another galaxy?
The likelihood that the planets in any given system (such as our own) came from anywhere other than the formation of that system is extremely small. But the galaxy is full of rogue planets- almost all formed in systems within our galaxy, but possibly a few ejected from other galaxies and either captured or passing through on hyperbolic orbits.
The likelihood may be extremely small if we calculate numbers and formation theory known even 10 years ago, but that likelihood has increased a LOT since the discovery of just how many rogue planets are roaming around. "The Milky Way alone could have billions of rogue planets." Wiki. That article seems to have been written before this latest discovery of Black Holes and spitball planets, so again, the number increases a HUGE amount.
Especially if we consider the Andromeda Galaxy will also be sending out billions of spitball planets which will escape Andromeda's gravity, and how easy it will be for the Milky Way to capture many of them, and our solar system's position in the Milky Way makes it a prime candidate for capture of Andromeda's spitballs.

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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:38 pm

Earthandsky wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:Does that mean one or more of our planets might have come from another galaxy?
The likelihood that the planets in any given system (such as our own) came from anywhere other than the formation of that system is extremely small. But the galaxy is full of rogue planets- almost all formed in systems within our galaxy, but possibly a few ejected from other galaxies and either captured or passing through on hyperbolic orbits.
The likelihood may be extremely small if we calculate numbers and formation theory known even 10 years ago, but that likelihood has increased a LOT since the discovery of just how many rogue planets are roaming around. "The Milky Way alone could have billions of rogue planets." Wiki. That article seems to have been written before this latest discovery of Black Holes and spitball planets, so again, the number increases a HUGE amount.
The original question was in regards to capturing planets that originated in other galaxies, and that's vanishingly unlikely. However, even considering rogue planets that form in our own galaxy, the likelihood of a capture is extremely small. Any capture in a multiple body system is difficult and rare. Almost any body that formed outside our system will approach at greater than solar escape velocity, meaning it will pass through and exit on a hyperbolic orbit with respect to the Sun. Capture would require a near perfect interaction with both Jupiter and the Sun. So again, the likelihood that any planets in the Solar System originated from another system is very small.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Earthand sky » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:18 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: The likelihood that the planets in any given system (such as our own) came from anywhere other than the formation of that system is extremely small. But the galaxy is full of rogue planets- almost all formed in systems within our galaxy, but possibly a few ejected from other galaxies and either captured or passing through on hyperbolic orbits.
The likelihood may be extremely small if we calculate numbers and formation theory known even 10 years ago, but that likelihood has increased a LOT since the discovery of just how many rogue planets are roaming around. "The Milky Way alone could have billions of rogue planets." Wiki. That article seems to have been written before this latest discovery of Black Holes and spitball planets, so again, the number increases a HUGE amount.
The original question was in regards to capturing planets that originated in other galaxies, and that's vanishingly unlikely. However, even considering rogue planets that form in our own galaxy, the likelihood of a capture is extremely small. Any capture in a multiple body system is difficult and rare. Almost any body that formed outside our system will approach at greater than solar escape velocity, meaning it will pass through and exit on a hyperbolic orbit with respect to the Sun. Capture would require a near perfect interaction with both Jupiter and the Sun. So again, the likelihood that any planets in the Solar System originated from another system is very small.
I totally 10,000 cubed disagree, but that is my last word on this topic.

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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:37 pm

Earthand sky wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote: The likelihood may be extremely small if we calculate numbers and formation theory known even 10 years ago, but that likelihood has increased a LOT since the discovery of just how many rogue planets are roaming around. "The Milky Way alone could have billions of rogue planets." Wiki. That article seems to have been written before this latest discovery of Black Holes and spitball planets, so again, the number increases a HUGE amount.
The original question was in regards to capturing planets that originated in other galaxies, and that's vanishingly unlikely. However, even considering rogue planets that form in our own galaxy, the likelihood of a capture is extremely small. Any capture in a multiple body system is difficult and rare. Almost any body that formed outside our system will approach at greater than solar escape velocity, meaning it will pass through and exit on a hyperbolic orbit with respect to the Sun. Capture would require a near perfect interaction with both Jupiter and the Sun. So again, the likelihood that any planets in the Solar System originated from another system is very small.
I totally 10,000 cubed disagree, but that is my last word on this topic.
It would be helpful it you actually said what you disagree with, and why. But if that was your last word, I guess we'll never know.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by neufer » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:01 pm

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthand sky wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
So again, the likelihood that any planets in the Solar System originated from another system is very small.
I totally 10,000 cubed disagree, but that is my last word on this topic.
It would be helpful it you actually said what you disagree with, and why. But if that was your last word, I guess we'll never know.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Earthandsky » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:01 am

neufer wrote:
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthand sky wrote: I totally 10,000 cubed disagree, but that is my last word on this topic.
It would be helpful it you actually said what you disagree with, and why. But if that was your last word, I guess we'll never know.
Okay Neuferman I retract my statement and will tell you that Chris Peterson's 'vanishingly small' opinion and everything else in his statement is what I disagree 10,000 cubed with.

The sheer number of planets the Andromeda galaxy is throwing at us, (along with other galaxies) together with the immense gravitational attraction of the Milky Way to the Andromeda planets, plus our outer edge position in the Milky Way precludes anything vanishingly small about odds of our solar system capturing a planet from Andromeda. I can't calculate the odds OF capture, but vanishingly small is nowhere near any realistic estimate. The opposition TO the idea that our solar system will capture a planet is not based on probability, but acceptance of conventional theory of planet formation excluding ANY other possibility. Now, however, we SEE another way planets are formed, billions upon billions upon billions of billions of them.

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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:35 am

Earthandsky wrote:Okay Neuferman I retract my statement and will tell you that Chris Peterson's 'vanishingly small' opinion and everything else in his statement is what I disagree 10,000 cubed with.
Which doesn't answer the question at all.
The sheer number of planets the Andromeda galaxy is throwing at us, (along with other galaxies) together with the immense gravitational attraction of the Milky Way to the Andromeda planets, plus our outer edge position in the Milky Way precludes anything vanishingly small about odds of our solar system capturing a planet from Andromeda. I can't calculate the odds OF capture, but vanishingly small is nowhere near any realistic estimate.
You can't calculate it but you know anyway?

I do understand how gravitational capture works, and therefore why it is so rare.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by neufer » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:27 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:
The sheer number of planets the Andromeda galaxy is throwing at us, (along with other galaxies) together with the immense gravitational attraction of the Milky Way to the Andromeda planets, plus our outer edge position in the Milky Way precludes anything vanishingly small about odds of our solar system capturing a planet from Andromeda. I can't calculate the odds OF capture, but vanishingly small is nowhere near any realistic estimate.
You can't calculate it but you know anyway?

I do understand how gravitational capture works, and therefore why it is so rare.
Might I suggest 2 rare scenarios by which a runaway planet from M31 could be captured by our galaxy:
  • 1) the M31 runaway just skims the surface of a giant or supergiant star such that it loses hundreds of km/s of velocity but avoids getting destroyed or swallowed up. The effective grazing cross-section of these giant or supergiant stars encounters might be on the order of a solar cross-section or less.

    2) the M31 runaway catches up with a Milky Way orbiting white dwarf or black hole and then passes by so closely that it makes a nearly parabolic orbit such that it too loses hundreds of km/s of velocity. The effective cross-section of these white dwarf/black hole encounters might be on the order of a solar cross-section or less.
I can't envision these encounters adding up to more than 1010 solar cross-sections or about one six thousandth of a square light year total. That's a pretty small target :!:
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:49 pm

neufer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:
The sheer number of planets the Andromeda galaxy is throwing at us, (along with other galaxies) together with the immense gravitational attraction of the Milky Way to the Andromeda planets, plus our outer edge position in the Milky Way precludes anything vanishingly small about odds of our solar system capturing a planet from Andromeda. I can't calculate the odds OF capture, but vanishingly small is nowhere near any realistic estimate.
You can't calculate it but you know anyway?

I do understand how gravitational capture works, and therefore why it is so rare.
Might I suggest 2 rare scenarios by which a runaway planet from M31 could be captured by our galaxy:
  • 1) the M31 runaway just skims the surface of a giant or supergiant star such that it loses hundreds of km/s of velocity but avoids getting destroyed or swallowed up. The effective grazing cross-section of these giant or supergiant stars encounters might be on the order of a solar cross-section or less.

    2) the M31 runaway catches up with a Milky Way orbiting white dwarf or black hole and then passes by so closely that it makes a nearly parabolic orbit such that it too loses hundreds of km/s of velocity. The effective cross-section of these white dwarf/black hole encounters might be on the order of a solar cross-section or less.
I can't envision these encounters adding up to more than 1010 solar cross-sections or about one six thousandth of a square light year total. That's a pretty small target :!:
And, of course, there's a substantial difference between a runaway planet from Andromeda being captured by our galaxy, and by it being captured by an individual star in our galaxy.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by neufer » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:12 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:
Might I suggest 2 rare scenarios by which a runaway planet from M31 could be captured by our galaxy:
  • 1) the M31 runaway just skims the surface of a giant or supergiant star such that it loses hundreds of km/s of velocity but avoids getting destroyed or swallowed up. The effective grazing cross-section of these giant or supergiant stars encounters might be on the order of a solar cross-section or less.

    2) the M31 runaway catches up with a Milky Way orbiting white dwarf or black hole and then passes by so closely that it makes a nearly parabolic orbit such that it too loses hundreds of km/s of velocity. The effective cross-section of these white dwarf/black hole encounters might be on the order of a solar cross-section or less.
I can't envision these encounters adding up to more than 1010 solar cross-sections or about one six thousandth of a square light year total. That's a pretty small target :!:
And, of course, there's a substantial difference between a runaway planet from Andromeda being captured by our galaxy, and by it being captured by an individual star in our galaxy.
Since a one six thousandth of a square light year total cross-section already amounts to only about 1 in every 1018 M31 runaway planets currently being captured by the Milky Way there's really no point going further. One need not worry about individual Milky Way stars capturing M31 planets (or vice-versa) until the two collide (as we are currently doing with the Sagittarius dwarf.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Earthandsky » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:05 pm

A 2011 low estimate of rogue planets in the Milky Way is 400 million. "A microlensing study published in Nature suggested the Milky Way contains at least 400 billion star-less worlds, that the lonely planets are more common than stars like our sun."

The existence, then, of rogue planets in our Galaxy has only very, very recently been discovered. It is therefore possible that the numbers are magnitudes greater, so the opportunities for capture increase. With the sheer numbers of rogue planets roaming around, some of them may have come from Andromeda, and just as some comets are captured by our sun, so too could some rogues be captured by stars.

Rather surprisingly, some of those planets may harbor life. "A paper published in 1999 by Caltech planetary scientist David Stevenson, who considered how Earth-mass planets cast from their solar systems might fare in outer space. Stevenson suggests that if these planets retained a hydrogen atmosphere, they could stay warm enough to have liquid water on their surface. A subsurface ocean could be present even without an atmosphere. And, larger planets are generally warmer than smaller planets, says Stevenson, who calculated that a cast-off Jupiter would only cool by about 15 Kelvin at its surface."

Now, if a fifth giant planet was kicked out of the solar system to enable its present structure, certainly a planet, for instance, earth, could just as easily have been captured.

"Theories describing the early solar system don’t really work unless a fifth giant planet – another Uranus or Neptune – were present at the start (one of the problems with these models is that Earth sometimes ends up running into Venus, which we know didn’t happen). Later, as the planets begin to migrate, that fifth giant is kicked out of the solar system and sent flying into space."

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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:46 pm

Earthandsky wrote:Now, if a fifth giant planet was kicked out of the solar system to enable its present structure, certainly a planet, for instance, earth, could just as easily have been captured.
No! Gravitational systems with more than two bodies are inherently unstable. It is expected that in an young planetary system, with dozens (or hundreds) of planet-sized bodies, most will be ejected. Capturing a body that originated elsewhere is difficult. It requires a precise interaction with at least two bodies in the capturing system.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Earthandsky » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:15 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:Now, if a fifth giant planet was kicked out of the solar system to enable its present structure, certainly a planet, for instance, earth, could just as easily have been captured.
No! Gravitational systems with more than two bodies are inherently unstable. It is expected that in an young planetary system, with dozens (or hundreds) of planet-sized bodies, most will be ejected. Capturing a body that originated elsewhere is difficult. It requires a precise interaction with at least two bodies in the capturing system.
Are you saying it cannot be done? That it has not been done? That it will not be done?

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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Earthandsky wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:Now, if a fifth giant planet was kicked out of the solar system to enable its present structure, certainly a planet, for instance, earth, could just as easily have been captured.
No! Gravitational systems with more than two bodies are inherently unstable. It is expected that in an young planetary system, with dozens (or hundreds) of planet-sized bodies, most will be ejected. Capturing a body that originated elsewhere is difficult. It requires a precise interaction with at least two bodies in the capturing system.
Are you saying it cannot be done? That it has not been done? That it will not be done?
I'm saying none of those things. Just that it's a great deal more common for a planetary system to eject a body (which is why the galaxy is full of rogue planets) than it is for it to capture one. And that it's extremely unlikely that a planetary system in our galaxy will capture a planet ejected from Andromeda, which will be falling towards it at something exceeding our galaxy's escape velocity at that radius (probably exceeding by a large amount) and will therefore only have its hyperbolic orbit converted into an elliptical one by one or more very energetic interactions with other bodies along the way. That's something Art has put actual numbers to in order to show how difficult and unlikely this would be.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Earthandsky » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:38 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: No! Gravitational systems with more than two bodies are inherently unstable. It is expected that in an young planetary system, with dozens (or hundreds) of planet-sized bodies, most will be ejected. Capturing a body that originated elsewhere is difficult. It requires a precise interaction with at least two bodies in the capturing system.
Are you saying it cannot be done? That it has not been done? That it will not be done?
I'm saying none of those things. Just that it's a great deal more common for a planetary system to eject a body (which is why the galaxy is full of rogue planets) than it is for it to capture one. And that it's extremely unlikely that a planetary system in our galaxy will capture a planet ejected from Andromeda, which will be falling towards it at something exceeding our galaxy's escape velocity at that radius (probably exceeding by a large amount) and will therefore only have its hyperbolic orbit converted into an elliptical one by one or more very energetic interactions with other bodies along the way. That's something Art has put actual numbers to in order to show how difficult and unlikely this would be.
Good .. that means you are saying it COULD be done. Good start. In other words, Earth COULD be one. Excellent.

Another thought I had as a result of this proof of a new theory of planet creation .. NASA and ESA photos labelled 'early stages of planet creation in a protoplanetary disc' could actually be photos of what happened AFTER a large rogue planet crashed into a large planet in that system, beginning a long series of collisions resulting in destruction of most or all of the planets. Sure it looks like creation, but it also looks like destruction's aftermath.

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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:42 pm

Earthandsky wrote:Good .. that means you are saying it COULD be done. Good start. In other words, Earth COULD be one. Excellent.
No, Earth could not be one. That is certain beyond reasonable doubt. Similarly true for every other known planet in our solar system.
Another thought I had as a result of this proof of a new theory of planet creation .. NASA and ESA photos labelled 'early stages of planet creation in a protoplanetary disc' could actually be photos of what happened AFTER a large rogue planet crashed into a large planet in that system, beginning a long series of collisions resulting in destruction of most or all of the planets. Sure it looks like creation, but it also looks like destruction's aftermath.
No. This is not the case. Again, certain beyond reasonable doubt.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:28 pm

Earthandsky wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Earthandsky wrote:Good .. that means you are saying it COULD be done. Good start. In other words, Earth COULD be one. Excellent.
No, Earth could not be one. That is certain beyond reasonable doubt. Similarly true for every other known planet in our solar system.
Another thought I had as a result of this proof of a new theory of planet creation .. NASA and ESA photos labelled 'early stages of planet creation in a protoplanetary disc' could actually be photos of what happened AFTER a large rogue planet crashed into a large planet in that system, beginning a long series of collisions resulting in destruction of most or all of the planets. Sure it looks like creation, but it also looks like destruction's aftermath.
No. This is not the case. Again, certain beyond reasonable doubt.
Please make up your mind, Chris Peterson, it's either possible or it's not possible. You can't have it both ways.
What do you find confusing? Something can be possible and still be so unlikely as to be stated as false beyond reasonable doubt.

What is possible is seldom as interesting as what is probable.
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Re: CfA: Our Galaxy's Black Hole Is Spewing Out Planet-size "Spitballs"

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:41 pm

Earthandsky wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:What do you find confusing? Something can be possible and still be so unlikely as to be stated as false beyond reasonable doubt.

What is possible is seldom as interesting as what is probable.
Except to say I'm not the one of a double mind here .. so the confusion is not with me.
I think most people in this forum would disagree with that.
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