Dark Flow

[The Code]

'Tis true. Mark took my statement as ridicule but such qualities can be quite admirable for artists. I actually wasn't joking. Heh!

No Mate. I never through anything out of any window. Or thought of any such thing. I did enjoy your comment. Thanks.

Swainy.

[THX1138]

The universe is expanding,,,,,,ok. And it is expanding into what ? Space is expanding into more space, and or what is space expanding into ?

[harry]

G'day

Its just amazing that from a theory comes out and expanding universe that in the mind of most is a fact and yet it is based on theory and not observable images.

[makc]

Its just amazing that from a theory comes out and expanding universe that in the mind of most is a fact and yet it is based on theory and not observable images.

Yeah, I can't see electrons no matter how hard I squint

[rstevenson]

The universe is expanding,,,,,,ok. And it is expanding into what ? Space is expanding into more space, and or what is space expanding into ?

You're going to have to do some reading. Start with the mostly fine articles at wikipedia, maybe this one as a beginning point.

Rob

[bystander]

The universe is expanding,,,,,,ok. And it is expanding into what ? Space is expanding into more space, and or what is space expanding into ?

The metric expansion of space is the averaged increase of metric (i.e. measured) distance between distant objects in the universe with time.

It is an intrinsic expansion—that is, it is defined by the relative separation of parts of the universe and not by motion "outward" into preexisting space. (In other words, the universe is not expanding "into" anything outside of itself).

[harry]

G'day makC

You said

Yeah, I can't see electrons no matter how hard I squint

Is that before the Xmas party or after.

There are enough images out there to give us some idea of the movements of the Milky Way, local group of galaxies, the cluster of local groups of galaxies and the super cluster that they belong to.

[The Code]

Last Night I watched a program on this. It was mostly talking about the standard model, building up to the Jaw Dropper, Oh My *** they are all wrong. But they made a very interesting point.

Dark Matter, Dark Energy, And The Dark Flow.: Somewhere out in the universe there seems to be a disturbing force that we can not explain. A force of astonishing power that is bending trillions of stars to its will. Gripping not just galaxies but whole clusters of galaxies spanning billions of light years of space. And its dragging everything to a single point. This mysterious phenomena is known as The Dark Flow. And it should not be happening. Whole clusters of galaxies are not meant to speed across the universe like this, in the same direction.

After 1 hour of how the standard model was wrong before. And Dark Energy , Dark Matter Added, The standard model Now works. The Dark Flow has Spoiled there party again.

Let me hazard a guess to what might be causing this. 1000 Trillion Solar Mass Black Hole? There is no upper limit.

Was worth watching.

Mark

[Orca]

What was the program? Does it have a website you can link us to?

[The Code]

What was the program? Does it have a website you can link us to?

Yes, but I think you have to pay to watch, Out side the UK.

Is Everything We Know About The Universe Wrong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... rse_Wrong/

Mark

[bystander]

Yeah, the BBC iPlayer isn't available outside the UK.

But here is an announcement by GFSC at NASA

Mysterious Cosmic 'Dark Flow' Tracked Deeper into Universe
NASA GFSC #10-023 - 2010 March 10

Distant galaxy clusters mysteriously stream at a million miles per hour along a path roughly centered on the southern constellations Centaurus and Hydra. A new study led by Alexander Kashlinsky at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., tracks this collective motion -- dubbed the "dark flow" -- to twice the distance originally reported.

"This is not something we set out to find, but we cannot make it go away," Kashlinsky said. "Now we see that it persists to much greater distances -- as far as 2.5 billion light-years away." The new study appears in the March 20 issue of The Astrophysical Journal Letters.
...
The dark flow is controversial because the distribution of matter in the observed universe cannot account for it. Its existence suggests that some structure beyond the visible universe -- outside our "horizon" -- is pulling on matter in our vicinity.

And the original announcement

Scientists Detect Cosmic 'Dark Flow' Across Billions of Light Years
NASA GFSC #08-83 - 2008 Sept 23

Using data from NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), scientists have identified an unexpected motion in distant galaxy clusters. The cause, they suggest, is the gravitational attraction of matter that lies beyond the observable universe.

"The clusters show a small but measurable velocity that is independent of the universe's expansion and does not change as distances increase," says lead researcher Alexander Kashlinsky at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. "We never expected to find anything like this."

[Chris Peterson]

While titles like "Everything we know is wrong" might help attract viewers, the reality is that the observed pattern of flow doesn't break the basic cosmological models. At most, it bends the models a little- something that has occurred in the past and served to improve them. I expect the same thing will happen again. There are relatively simple explanations for the observation that don't require some massive inhomogeneity in the Universe.

[The Code]

While titles like "Everything we know is wrong" might help attract viewers, the reality is that the observed pattern of flow doesn't break the basic cosmological models. At most, it bends the models a little- something that has occurred in the past and served to improve them. I expect the same thing will happen again. There are relatively simple explanations for the observation that don't require some massive inhomogeneity in the Universe.

That which i said above Is a Quote from the program And Top cosmologists. They are the people who said: Somewhere out in the universe there seems to be a disturbing force that we can not explain. A force of astonishing power that is bending trillions of stars to its will. Gripping not just galaxies but whole clusters of galaxies spanning billions of light years of space. And its dragging everything to a single point. This mysterious phenomena is known as The Dark Flow. And it should not be happening. It should not be happening? Why Not?
Interesting photo
http://www.eurekalert.org/multimedia/pu ... rom=155953
How big does a thing have to be, to drag 1400 galaxy clusters 6 billion light years?
http://sify.com/news/mysterious-cosmic- ... decbj.html

They say that a super massive black hole has no upper limit in size. There must be an upper limit. And that upper limit is 13.7 billion years. If this thing ate all the pies just after the big bang, Why is there not a huge void . Why wait, 13 billion years to drag them back across expansion? Could this be the birth of a new universe? Inside our universe.

[Chris Peterson]

That which i said above Is a Quote from the program And Top cosmologists. They are the people who said: Somewhere out in the universe there seems to be a disturbing force that we can not explain. A force of astonishing power that is bending trillions of stars to its will...

I know that they said it. That's why I said this sort of thing is great for selling stories, but not very accurately scientifically. Nevertheless, you repeated it (twice), so perhaps you think it has some merit.

There's no need to assume that any force is present at all. What is observed is motion, nothing else. Newton pointed out a long time ago that you don't need a force to sustain motion.

Dark flow may not even be real- there are plenty of problems with the observation itself. And if it is real, it may just be a natural fluctuation left from the primordial Universe. And if the motion is a remnant of gravitational attraction by something which is now outside the observable Universe, it need not be a particularly extraordinary object.

The whole matter is interesting, and like all new observations it is likely to cause us to modify our theories a bit, but I don't expect that much will change in our overall understanding of things.

[harry]

G'day Orca

In a nut shell

At the centre of clusters of galaxies there exist extremely large condensed matter that some call AGN or so called black holes. These super "things" create jets that have the property of a soliton wave that allows them to create the so called DARK FLOW. This outflow is able to reform and seed new galaxies near and far, several million light years.

Now you can find these images on APOD and NASA and Chandra sites. If you cannot find them, then I will look for them.

As for being skeptic, is that a joke.

[Chris Peterson]

At the centre of clusters of galaxies there exist extremely large condensed matter that some call AGN or so called black holes. These super "things" create jets that have the property of a soliton wave that allows them to create the so called DARK FLOW.

This is nonsense, pure and simple.

[The Code]

There's no need to assume that any force is present at all. What is observed is motion, nothing else. Newton pointed out a long time ago that you don't need a force to sustain motion.

Not to a single point, As they stated. But any way, I found this hot off the Press And thought you may like to see it.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... ast-lane/1

Mark

[harry]

G'day

Chris said

At the centre of clusters of galaxies there exist extremely large condensed matter that some call AGN or so called black holes. These super "things" create jets that have the property of a soliton wave that allows them to create the so called DARK FLOW.

This is nonsense, pure and simple.

Nonsense in your books.

Please refer to the giant gets that I have spoke of. Google for the info, you will find them in the centre of galaxy clusters.

If you cannot find them, I will post the links from NASA and Chandra sites.

[bystander]

Nonsense in your books.

Please refer to the giant <j>ets that I have spoke of. Google for the info, you will find them in the centre of galaxy clusters.

The nonsense isn't that AGNs create jets. The nonsense is your explanation of them and your suggestion that they have anything at all to do with dark flow.

BTW: AGNs and their associated jets are at the center of galaxies, not galaxy clusters.

[neufer]

And that question was answer in an earlyer post:

No . The visible universe is 13.4 billion light years . And according to the big bang, There is nothing past that time.

Except, What ever this huge thing is, we can not see. Matter and huge black holes do not jump behind the horizon faster than light speed.

There was almost certainly something BEFORE 13.7 billion light years ago
(; possibly, a hierarchy of turtles).

The "visible" universe currently observable by Hubble is ~13.1 billion years old.
The "visible" universe observable by JWST may be ~13.4 billion years old.
The actual "light visible" universe observable from earth is ~13.6996 billion years old.

• The "light visible" universe observable from earth
  stops at the 3000K big bang plasma at z= 1,089 which
  we now observe as (3000/1090)K cosmic background microwave radiation
  from (13.7 billion yrs/1090^1.5) = 380,000 years after the Big Bang.

However, "The Visible Universe" is generally defined as the earth's own
~13.7 billion light years old event horizon left after the big bang inflation
whose current dimensions are calculated to be 46.5 billion light years.

Nothing within "The Visible Universe" is currently being
influenced by something outside of "The Visible Universe."

That is not to say that something lying outside "The Visible Universe"
has not left an observable fossil imprint upon "The Visible Universe."

The casual speed limit of light was a meaningless concept during the big bang inflation period.

[The Code]

There was almost certainly something BEFORE 13.7 billion light years ago

Nothing within "The Visible Universe" is currently being
influenced by something outside of "The Visible Universe."

That is not to say that something lying outside "The Visible Universe"
has not left an observable fossil imprint upon "The Visible Universe."

Interesting , Good post neufer.

From This I get the impression that the Dark Flow may be, A Before the BB Remnant? The reason for me to say this, is because for a long time now, over 15 years in fact, I have believed The BB to have been caused by the collapse of a giant Black Hole. Much larger than we could Imagine. And is why I place so much passion on the Dark Flow subject. Remember There is no upper limit.

Thanks neufer.

[harry]

G'day

Jets large and smal have their origins quite similar although there explanations of how they form maybe disputed.


http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2006/3c273/

In the case of this jet, even the most energetic light was unexpectedly found to be the result of charged particles spiraling through a magnetic field, a process known as synchrotron radiation

.

There are other explanation based on supersymmetry and color-supercondactor as a dynamic property of "pasta" nuclear matter that creates the spin and the jet formation from within the condensed matter.



http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/00_rel ... 3c273.html

Using the unrivaled high resolution of NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory, astronomers have seen important new details in the powerful jet shooting from the quasar 3C273. This research, coupled with optical and radio data, may reveal how these very high velocity jets are driven from the supermassive black holes that scientists believe lurk in the center of quasars.

"For the first time, Chandra has given us an X-ray view into the area between 3C273's core and the beginning of the jet," says MIT's Herman Marshall, lead author on the paper submitted to Astrophysical Journal Letters. "Instead of being void of X-ray emission, Chandra has enabled us to detect a faint, but definite, stream of energy."

and
http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/04_rel ... 51004.html

Long-exposure images of the giant elliptical galaxy M87 by NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory, together with radio observations, have provided spectacular evidence of repetitive outbursts from the vicinity of the galaxy's supermassive black hole. Magnetized rings, bubbles, plumes and jets ranging in size from a few thousand to a few hundred thousand light years point to ongoing violent activity for hundreds of millions of years.

[harry]

G'day

To be informed of the type of jets and their size is to understand their impact.

'Death Star' Galaxy Black Hole Fires at Neighboring Galaxy
http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/07_rel ... 21707.html

"We've seen many jets produced by black holes, but this is the first time we've seen one punch into another galaxy like we're seeing here," said Dan Evans, a scientist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and leader of the study. "This jet could be causing all sorts of problems for the smaller galaxy it is pummeling."

Jets from super massive black holes produce high amounts of radiation, especially high-energy X-rays and gamma-rays, which can be lethal in large quantities. The combined effects of this radiation and particles traveling at almost the speed of light could severely damage the atmospheres of planets lying in the path of the jet. For example, protective layers of ozone in the upper atmosphere of planets could be destroyed.


X-ray & Radio Full Field Image of 3C321Jets produced by super massive black holes transport enormous amounts of energy far from black holes and enable them to affect matter on scales vastly larger than the size of the black hole. Learning more about jets is a key goal for astrophysical research.

Spectacular X-ray Jet Points Toward Cosmic Energy Booster

http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/00_rel ... 00pic.html

The hot spot is at least 800 thousand light years (8 times the diameter of our Milky Way galaxy) away from where the jet originates. It is thought to represent the advancing head of the jet, which brightens conspicuously where it plows into the tenuous gas of intergalactic space. The jet, powered by the giant black hole, originates from a region of space no bigger than the solar system.

"Both the brightness and the spectrum of the X rays are very different from what theory predicts," Professor Andrew Wilson reported today at the 196th national meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Rochester, New York. Wilson, of the University of Maryland, College Park, along with Dr. Patrick Shopbell and Dr. Andrew Young, also of the University of Maryland, are submitting an article on this research to the Astrophysical Journal. "The Chandra observations are telling us that something out there is producing many more high-energy particles than we expected," said Wilson.

[harry]

G'day

oops forgot this one

Host Galaxy Cluster to Largest Known Radio Eruption
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archiv ... s/2006/51/

November 2, 2006: This is a new composite image of galaxy cluster MS0735.6+7421, located about 2.6 billion light-years away in the constellation Camelopardalis. The three views of the region were taken with NASA's Hubble Space Telescope in Feb. 2006, NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory in Nov. 2003, and NRAO's Very Large Array in Oct. 2004. The Hubble image shows dozens of galaxies bound together by gravity. In Jan. 2005, astronomers reported that a supermassive black hole, lurking in the central bright galaxy, generated the most powerful outburst seen in the universe. The VLA radio image shows jets of high energy particles (in red) streaming from the black hole. These jets pushed the X-ray emitting hot gas (shown in blue in the Chandra image) aside to create two giant cavities in the gas. The cavities are evidence for the massive eruption. The X-ray and radio images show the enormous appetite of large black holes and the profound

Dark flow must have a driving dynamo or should I say dynamotor, the question is what is it, what is its make?

In my opinion the answer lies in the understanding of condensed matter and the research done in supersymmetry and color-superconductors.

[wonderboy]

From what I understand, if you sit right at the edge of the observable Universe, you can see 13.4 Billion Light Years in any given direction. So if you are on the edge of the observable universe does this mean that you can see things which we will never see. If this is the case, then it is perfectly concievable that there is something on the outside of "OUR" observable universe which we cannot see that is pulling space objects towards it.

The way I see it, is that you have the observable universe, which for us is a 13.4 billion light year view in any direction. Then you have the unobservable universe beyond that. Just because it is unobservable does not make it dead space, its probably littered with objects and apparently there is an object the likes of which has never been seen. It could be a heeeeeuuuuuuggggeeeeeeee blackhole. Point is where never gonna find out!