A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

The cosmos at our fingertips.
varadinagypal
Ensign
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:29 pm

A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by varadinagypal » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:33 pm

Hi guys,
as posted here, I observed something intriguing on Jupiter, a planet-wide feature that looks like a line/series of dark areas. A forum admin suggested to me to post it here also, so here I go:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=40846&start=75#p305405

My blog post is here: https://csillagtura.ro/jupiter-with-a-d ... 020-08-20/



Hypotheses:

1. a random alignment of features, aka a mere pareidolia. Could be proved by feature tracking, but I have no data for the last seven days. It’s been raining in the Carpathian Basin.

2. scars from an impact event, a row of meteors hit Jupiter some time before my session.

3. ?

In the meanwhile, I received notice from two independent observers that the feature is visible on their pictures too: https://www.asztrofoto.hu/galeria_image/1598019963 and https://www.asztrofoto.hu/galeria_image/1598020097
Last edited by varadinagypal on Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

BDanielMayfield
Don't bring me down
Posts: 2523
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:24 am
AKA: Bruce
Location: East Idaho

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by BDanielMayfield » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:22 am

That is remarkable! The mystery line also happens to pass through a large blue patch in the transitional zone between the light equatorial cloud band and the dark cloud band above it. Is it common to see such large blue areas on Jupiter?
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

User avatar
Ann
4725 Å
Posts: 10898
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by Ann » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:07 am

BDanielMayfield wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:22 am
That is remarkable! The mystery line also happens to pass through a large blue patch in the transitional zone between the light equatorial cloud band and the dark cloud band above it. Is it common to see such large blue areas on Jupiter?
The large blue patch is called a festoon. They are seen quite frequently on Jupiter, although this particular one seems to be larger than usual.

But the diagonal line is remarkable indeed! :shock:

Ann
Color Commentator

BDanielMayfield
Don't bring me down
Posts: 2523
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:24 am
AKA: Bruce
Location: East Idaho

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by BDanielMayfield » Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:13 pm

Ann wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:07 am
BDanielMayfield wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:22 am
That is remarkable! The mystery line also happens to pass through a large blue patch in the transitional zone between the light equatorial cloud band and the dark cloud band above it. Is it common to see such large blue areas on Jupiter?
The large blue patch is called a festoon. They are seen quite frequently on Jupiter, although this particular one seems to be larger than usual.

But the diagonal line is remarkable indeed! :shock:

Ann
Thanks Ann!
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 15387
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:19 pm

varadinagypal wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:33 pm
Hypotheses:

1. a random alignment of features, aka a mere pareidolia. Could be proved by feature tracking, but I have no data for the last seven days. It’s been raining in the Carpathian Basin.
My vote, by a wide margin.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
Ann
4725 Å
Posts: 10898
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by Ann » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:52 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:13 pm
Ann wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:07 am
BDanielMayfield wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:22 am
That is remarkable! The mystery line also happens to pass through a large blue patch in the transitional zone between the light equatorial cloud band and the dark cloud band above it. Is it common to see such large blue areas on Jupiter?
The large blue patch is called a festoon. They are seen quite frequently on Jupiter, although this particular one seems to be larger than usual.

But the diagonal line is remarkable indeed! :shock:

Ann
Thanks Ann!

Jupiter with arrows on festoons.png
Festoons in Jupiter's atmosphere.
Actually, Bruce, I should have said that we see bluish festoons in the atmosphere of Jupiter all the time. Look at the picture at right. I have marked festoons in Jupiter's atmosphere with arrows. They are located right at the edge of Jupiter's North Equatorial Belt, which is of course brown in color. The color contrast makes the festoons look bluish.

I remember extremely vividly how a visual observer once described the appearance of the festoons. He wrote, "Festoons are often remarkably blue..."

Yes, indeed, or at least they look that way! :yes:

Ann
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Color Commentator

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 17597
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by neufer » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:36 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Jupiter wrote:
<<One of the most mysterious features in the atmosphere of Jupiter are hot spots. In them, the air is relatively free of clouds and heat can escape from the depths without much absorption. The spots look like bright spots in the infrared images obtained at the wavelength of about 5 μm. They are preferentially located in the belts, although there is a train of prominent hot spots at the northern edge of the Equatorial Zone. The Galileo Probe descended into one of those equatorial spots. Each equatorial spot is associated with a bright cloudy plume located to the west of it and reaching up to 10,000 km in size. Hot spots generally have round shapes, although they do not resemble vortexes. The origin of hot spots is not clear. They can be either downdrafts, where the descending air is adiabatically heated and dried or, alternatively, they can be a manifestation of planetary scale waves. The latter hypotheses explains the periodical pattern of the equatorial spots>>
..................................................
..................................................

<<The wide equatorial zone is visible in the center surrounded by two dark equatorial belts (SEB and NEB). The large grayish-blue irregular "hot spots" at the northern edge of the white Equatorial Zone change over the course of time as they march eastward across the planet. The Great Red Spot is at the southern margin of the SEB. Strings of small storms rotate around northern-hemisphere ovals. Small, very bright features, possible lightning storms, appear quickly and randomly in turbulent regions. The smallest features visible at the equator are about 600 kilometers across. This 14-frame animation spans 24 Jovian days, or about 10 Earth days. The passage of time is accelerated by a factor of 600,000. The occasional black spots in the image are moons of Jupiter getting into the field of view.>> :arrow:
Last edited by neufer on Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Art Neuendorffer

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 17597
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by neufer » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:47 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Probe wrote:
<<The Galileo Probe was an atmospheric-entry probe carried by the main Galileo spacecraft to Jupiter, where it directly entered a hot spot and returned data from the planet. The 339-kilogram probe was built by Hughes Aircraft Company at its El Segundo, California plant, and measured about 1.3 meters across. Inside the probe's heat shield, the scientific instruments were protected from extreme heat and pressure during its high-speed journey into the Jovian atmosphere, entering at 47.8 kilometers per second.

The probe entered Jupiter's atmosphere at 22:04 UTC. Before the atmospheric entry, the probe discovered a new radiation belt 31,000 miles above Jupiter's cloud tops. The atmosphere through which it subsequently descended was found to be much denser and hotter than expected. Jupiter was also found to have only half the amount of helium expected and the data did not support the three-layered cloud structure theory. Only one significant cloud layer was measured by the probe, but with many indications of smaller areas of increased particle densities along all of the trajectory. The probe detected less lightning, less water, but more winds than expected. The atmosphere was more turbulent and the winds a lot stronger than the expected maximum of 350 kilometers per hour. It required a laborious analysis of the initial wind data from the probe to determine the actual measured wind speeds. The results eventually showed that wind speeds in the outermost layers were 80–100 m/s, in agreement with previous measurements from afar, but that winds increased dramatically at pressure levels of 1-4 bars, then remaining consistently high at around 170 m/s. No solid surface was detected during the 156-kilometer downward journey. Subsequent analysis determined that the Galileo probe had entered a so-called hot spot in Jupiter's atmosphere.

Radio contact ceased (due to the high temperature) 78 minutes after entering Jupiter's atmosphere at a depth of 160 kilometers. At that point the probe measured a pressure of 22 bars and a temperature of 152 °C. Theoretical analysis indicates that the parachute would have melted first, roughly 105 minutes after entry, then the aluminum components after another 40 minutes of free fall through a sea of supercritical fluid hydrogen. The titanium structure would have lasted around 6.5 hours more before disintegrating. Due to the high pressure, the droplets of metals from the probe would finally have vaporized once their critical temperature had been reached, and mixed with Jupiter's liquid metallic hydrogen interior. The probe was expected to have completely vaporized 10 hours after its atmospheric entry.>>
Art Neuendorffer

BDanielMayfield
Don't bring me down
Posts: 2523
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:24 am
AKA: Bruce
Location: East Idaho

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by BDanielMayfield » Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:43 pm

Thanks for the in depth explanation of the blue spots Ann and Art. But, more to the point of this thread,
Chris Peterson wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:19 pm
varadinagypal wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:33 pm
Hypotheses:

1. a random alignment of features, aka a mere pareidolia. Could be proved by feature tracking, but I have no data for the last seven days. It’s been raining in the Carpathian Basin.
My vote, by a wide margin.
My first thought was that the line across Jupiter may have been caused by something on Earth in front of Jupiter, like a power line or cable. But the vid series shows the line curving into an arc as Jupiter rotates.

Of coarse, anything like this can also be faked. Sorry varadinagypal, but the question of this being real needs to be solidly established before people take it seriously.
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

varadinagypal
Ensign
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by varadinagypal » Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:42 am

About fakes: (sigh).

This is the fourth, independent observation I know about:

http://alpo-j.sakura.ne.jp/kk20/j200820p1.jpg

varadinagypal
Ensign
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by varadinagypal » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:01 am

preliminary update from yesterday, I fail to recognize any of the constituent dark spots, nor the arc it should have gotten distorted to: http://csillagtura.ro/temp/ezgif-4-3fe9ab6bc4d8.gif

varadinagypal
Ensign
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by varadinagypal » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:31 pm

The same area, two days difference:

2020-08-20
2020-08-22

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 17597
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Jupiter's warm 8ºN subtropical jet feature?

Post by neufer » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:59 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream#Subtropical_jet wrote:


<<Jet streams are fast flowing, narrow, meandering air currents in the atmospheres of some planets, including Earth. On Earth, the main jet streams are located near the altitude of the tropopause and are westerly winds (flowing west to east). Their paths typically have a meandering shape. Jet streams may start, stop, split into two or more parts, combine into one stream, or flow in various directions including opposite to the direction of the remainder of the jet. The strongest jet streams are the polar jets, at 9–12 km above sea level, and the higher altitude and somewhat weaker subtropical jets at 10–16 km.

One factor which contributes to a concentrated jet is more applicable to the subtropical jet which forms at the poleward limit of the tropical Hadley cell, and to first order this circulation is symmetric with respect to longitude. Tropical air rises to the tropopause, and moves poleward before sinking; this is the Hadley cell circulation. As it does so it tends to conserve angular momentum, since friction with the ground is slight. Air masses that begin moving poleward are deflected eastward by the Coriolis force, which for poleward moving air implies an increased westerly component of the winds.
Art Neuendorffer

varadinagypal
Ensign
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Jupiter's warm 8ºN subtropical jet feature?

Post by varadinagypal » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:06 pm

@neufer: Your quotes are starting to get annoying, and aren't constructive at all -- as they are already well covered by hypothesis #1 (random alignment).

User avatar
Ann
4725 Å
Posts: 10898
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Jupiter's warm 8ºN subtropical jet feature?

Post by Ann » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:32 pm

varadinagypal wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:06 pm
@neufer: Your quotes are starting to get annoying, and aren't constructive at all -- as they are already well covered by hypothesis #1 (random alignment).
That's neufer for you. Get used to him. Give his whimsicality a chance, and you'll see that there is often much to be learned. On other occasions, you'd better just ignore him!

But Starship Asterisk* would be poorer without him, in my opinion.

Ann
Color Commentator

varadinagypal
Ensign
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by varadinagypal » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:51 pm

One more, a guy from Braila, Romania posted this image to a local forum, so -- we might say -- it was widely observed:
http://astronomy.ro/forum/viewtopic.php?p=198557#198557

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 15387
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:19 pm

varadinagypal wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:51 pm
One more, a guy from Braila, Romania posted this image to a local forum, so -- we might say -- it was widely observed:
http://astronomy.ro/forum/viewtopic.php?p=198557#198557
All of which means it isn't an atmospheric (Earth) phenomenon, so all that's reasonably left is our brains desperately seeking a pattern from a chance field.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

varadinagypal
Ensign
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by varadinagypal » Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:35 pm

I've been looking at Jupiter for years now, almost on a daily bases, and haven't seen anything even remotely this striking (first idea: f*ck, piece of hair in the instrument somewhere), that's why I posted, hoping to get ideas from others, with perhaps deeper experience. Obviously, the random alignment of some random features is the most likely reason the pictures look the way they do. However, I find it remarkable enough to ask around.

BDanielMayfield
Don't bring me down
Posts: 2523
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:24 am
AKA: Bruce
Location: East Idaho

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by BDanielMayfield » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:59 pm

varadinagypal wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:42 am
About fakes: (sigh).

This is the fourth, independent observation I know about:

http://alpo-j.sakura.ne.jp/kk20/j200820p1.jpg
Again, sorry to have raised that possibility, but in this day and age ...

But personally, if one opinion is worth anything, you have shared enough corroborating evidence from other observers to convince me that this line effect was real. As to it's cause :?:

Thanks for sharing these with us.
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

BDanielMayfield
Don't bring me down
Posts: 2523
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:24 am
AKA: Bruce
Location: East Idaho

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by BDanielMayfield » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:07 am

Another possibility just came to mind: Could this have been caused by a string of debris from a broken up comet, similar to Shoemaker-Levy 9, only much smaller?

Bruce
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 15387
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:23 am

BDanielMayfield wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:07 am
Another possibility just came to mind: Could this have been caused by a string of debris from a broken up comet, similar to Shoemaker-Levy 9, only much smaller?

Bruce
Extremely unlikely, I think. The path doesn't seem reasonable for that. Really, it just looks like an alignment of features that triggers our pattern recognition system. Happens a lot with star fields.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
Ann
4725 Å
Posts: 10898
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by Ann » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:55 am

varadinagypal wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:35 pm
I've been looking at Jupiter for years now, almost on a daily bases, and haven't seen anything even remotely this striking (first idea: f*ck, piece of hair in the instrument somewhere), that's why I posted, hoping to get ideas from others, with perhaps deeper experience. Obviously, the random alignment of some random features is the most likely reason the pictures look the way they do. However, I find it remarkable enough to ask around.
It has been a very interesting discussion. Thanks for sharing! :D

Ann
Color Commentator

BDanielMayfield
Don't bring me down
Posts: 2523
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:24 am
AKA: Bruce
Location: East Idaho

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by BDanielMayfield » Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:56 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:23 am
BDanielMayfield wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:07 am
Another possibility just came to mind: Could this have been caused by a string of debris from a broken up comet, similar to Shoemaker-Levy 9, only much smaller?

Bruce
Extremely unlikely, I think. The path doesn't seem reasonable for that. Really, it just looks like an alignment of features that triggers our pattern recognition system. Happens a lot with star fields.
Why so unlikely Chris? As you know Jupiter is famous for attracting and deflecting the orbits of comets, and they can come in from any and all angles, can't they?
varadinagypal wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:35 pm
I've been looking at Jupiter for years now, almost on a daily bases, and haven't seen anything even remotely this striking (first idea: f*ck, piece of hair in the instrument somewhere), that's why I posted, hoping to get ideas from others, with perhaps deeper experience. Obviously, the random alignment of some random features is the most likely reason the pictures look the way they do. However, I find it remarkable enough to ask around.
Where you privileged to be observing Jupiter back when Shoemaker-Levy 9 hit? I can accept the random alignment explanation, but remembering the dark impact features on Jupiter made me think of a cometary cause in this case too, however unlikely it may be.

I'd carefully search your just prior to line image frames as well, looking for any impact flashes. Ask other Jupiter imagers to do so as well. This search will turn up nothing if this is just random, but what else could cause a planet wide string of dark spots in Jupiter's cloud tops?
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 15387
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:14 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:56 pm
Chris Peterson wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:23 am
BDanielMayfield wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:07 am
Another possibility just came to mind: Could this have been caused by a string of debris from a broken up comet, similar to Shoemaker-Levy 9, only much smaller?

Bruce
Extremely unlikely, I think. The path doesn't seem reasonable for that. Really, it just looks like an alignment of features that triggers our pattern recognition system. Happens a lot with star fields.
Why so unlikely Chris? As you know Jupiter is famous for attracting and deflecting the orbits of comets, and they can come in from any and all angles, can't they?
varadinagypal wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:35 pm
I've been looking at Jupiter for years now, almost on a daily bases, and haven't seen anything even remotely this striking (first idea: f*ck, piece of hair in the instrument somewhere), that's why I posted, hoping to get ideas from others, with perhaps deeper experience. Obviously, the random alignment of some random features is the most likely reason the pictures look the way they do. However, I find it remarkable enough to ask around.
Where you privileged to be observing Jupiter back when Shoemaker-Levy 9 hit? I can accept the random alignment explanation, but remembering the dark impact features on Jupiter made me think of a cometary cause in this case too, however unlikely it may be.

I'd carefully search your just prior to line image frames as well, looking for any impact flashes. Ask other Jupiter imagers to do so as well. This search will turn up nothing if this is just random, but what else could cause a planet wide string of dark spots in Jupiter's cloud tops?
I find it curious that the features that make up the "line" all are in belts that are otherwise full of structure. That is not what I'd expect for an impact. Nor would I expect a fragmented impactor would have gone undetected. Except for SL9, all the observed impacts have been single bodies. It takes something initially large to break up into a string of large impactors, and that breakup would have likely required a previous close pass to Jupiter. So we're talking about a body that would have been observable for a few years, at least. Finally, the linear elements all look different, not like the dark spots that we've seen with impactors.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

BDanielMayfield
Don't bring me down
Posts: 2523
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:24 am
AKA: Bruce
Location: East Idaho

Re: A planet-wide Jupiter-feature / line / streak

Post by BDanielMayfield » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:50 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:14 pm
BDanielMayfield wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:56 pm
Chris Peterson wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:23 am
Extremely unlikely, I think. The path doesn't seem reasonable for that. Really, it just looks like an alignment of features that triggers our pattern recognition system. Happens a lot with star fields.
Why so unlikely Chris? As you know Jupiter is famous for attracting and deflecting the orbits of comets, and they can come in from any and all angles, can't they?
I find it curious that the features that make up the "line" all are in belts that are otherwise full of structure. That is not what I'd expect for an impact. Nor would I expect a fragmented impactor would have gone undetected. Except for SL9, all the observed impacts have been single bodies. It takes something initially large to break up into a string of large impactors, and that breakup would have likely required a previous close pass to Jupiter. So we're talking about a body that would have been observable for a few years, at least. Finally, the linear elements all look different, not like the dark spots that we've seen with impactors.
Rational reply. Thanks Chris.
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.