The Coma Cluster of Galaxies 3/21/06

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:22 pm

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060321.html

These are mostly elliptical galaxies; however there is a nice spiral at the bottom left corner. I see there are some galaxies that look like double. Could this be that maybe one is farther away than the other as I don't see any obvious disruption of there physical structure?
Orin

AndyKayeAPOD · Post by **AndyKayeAPOD** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:16 pm

Concur with Orin's comment, and add that there are other candidates (e.g., upper left). So the question in my mind is, how much better would all this look in a HUDF-type mosaic view (newer, better resolution, etc.)? Any chance of that being done?

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:41 pm

Do elliptical galaxies rotate? and wouldn't they develop spiral arms if they did? The chance of developing into spirals by collusion seems rather remote at best.

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:55 pm

It is my belief that spiral galaxies have a central mass anchor that is rotating thus pulling its orbiting material with it thereby creating the spiral effect. Elliptical galaxies do not have this rotating central mass anchor so the stars orbit each other around a centralized location.

Central mass anchor = supermassive Black Hole or similar but must rotate.

Stars rotate and therefore the planets within their rotational influence will tend to orbit in an equitorial plane while other things, merely within their gravitational influence but not rotational influence, will still orbit but in any unorganized spherical/elliptical direction.

Qev · Post by **Qev** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:04 pm

Elliptical galaxies as a rule do seem to have central, supermassive black holes. M87 is a good example; it even has a radio and visible jet extending from the black hole several thousand light-years long.

I'm not entirely sure about this, but aren't ellipticals basically 'evolved' galaxies? Ones who have undergone large numbers of collisions and amalgamations with other galaxies, thus disrupting the familiar planar-orbiting spiral shape? They'd be kind of akin to globular clusters, only on a ridiculously bigger scale; basically every star or group of stars is following an independant orbit around the center of mass, as opposed to being confined to a plane.

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:48 pm

Prehaps, if there is as you say, supermassive black holes at the center of elliptical galaxies, then they must not be spinning thereby not creating the necessary tidal forces in the fabric of space to cause galactic rotation. Only gravitationally locked stellar orbit.

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:54 pm

here is info on M87
http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m087.html
Orin

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:03 pm

Interesting,
I'll need to read more when I have the time. Thank You for the Link

Qev · Post by **Qev** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:10 am

BMAONE23 wrote:Prehaps, if there is as you say, supermassive black holes at the center of elliptical galaxies, then they must not be spinning thereby not creating the necessary tidal forces in the fabric of space to cause galactic rotation. Only gravitationally locked stellar orbit.

Well, the central black-hole engine in spiral galaxies isn't really what determines their spiral shape. If a spiral has been disturbed in some way, the black hole's axis of rotation often doesn't coincide with that of the galaxy proper. Frame-dragging is powerful around a black hole, but it's not a very long-range effect, and I imagine can be ignored on galaxy scales.

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:41 pm

I read the link and found nothing about a black hole in M87. Maybe another link would. It does tell about the jet which is very long. more info is needed.
Orin

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:56 pm

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/newsde ... s/1994/23/

This link tells of a massive black hole in the center of M87. It also says there is a spiral core of hot gasses at its center. So is this the case of ellipticals? Remember this one has a long jet.

Orin

harry · Post by **harry** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:24 am

Hello All

The process of galaxy formation goes through many stages and in many cases collision wit other galaxies stop the process.

An active black hole spinning rappidly will eject large amounts of material forming stars around it like a beehive. The position of the jet stream moves with the spin of the ultra dense matter (Black Hole) giving little chance for the galaxy to form spiral arms. The galaxy needs to be given time to form the spirals as part of the process at this partical time the Black Hole is less active and less massive.
Our milky way has a Black Hole mass a few million times that of our sun.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap051023.html

M87 active black hole has a mass about 3 billion times that of our sun.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970405.html
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/intro ... axies.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030601.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031128.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050128.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960910.html

A Black Hole without a home.
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMJUN7X9DE_index_0.html

What is the difference between a quasar and a Black Hole?.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/apo ... rch?quasar
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/apo ... Black+Hole

Oooops sorry for all the links, get carried away sometimes.

Qev · Post by **Qev** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:33 am

I would imagine most large ellipticals would have supermassive black holes at their centers; they seem to be almost the 'seed' around which galaxies form. Bear in mind that ellipticals as a rule are poor in gases, which tends to mean the black holes at their centers would be quiescent, since there's nothing much for them to consume in order to generate noticable effects.

harry · Post by **harry** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:01 am

Hello Qev

When you have a super massive Black Hole, its no longer the seed but becomes the mother a fruit bearing tree. Part of the recycle process.

Ellipticals are poor in gases because of the busy bee Active Black Hole.
Gases are generated i think by exploding stars. Give them time and collision will occur. Maybe I'm wrong.

Qev · Post by **Qev** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:53 pm

harry wrote:Hello Qev

When you have a super massive Black Hole, its no longer the seed but becomes the mother a fruit bearing tree. Part of the recycle process.

Ellipticals are poor in gases because of the busy bee Active Black Hole.
Gases are generated i think by exploding stars. Give them time and collision will occur. Maybe I'm wrong.

Actually, gases form stars... although stars will often return some of that to the interstellar medium when they 'expire'. One thing ellipticals have in common is extremely low rates of star formation; there just isn't enough interstellar gas remaining to form new stars.

I have to wonder: are elliptical galaxies an 'aged' type of galaxy? Ie. formed from multiple collisions of gas-rich spirals, the collisions triggering massive star formation that consumes the available gas?

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:32 am

Hi Qev! I wonder that also [that ellipticals are older]. Maybe they were spirals at one time and when all the dust and gas is used up making stars and planet etc. - - - M87 has many more stars than our own milky way galaxy.
Orin

kovil · Post by **kovil** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:53 am

In looking at M87 it strikes me as looking like a swarm of bees buzzing around a hive. Although it really is a swarm of black holes cloaked in globular cluster disguise, swarming around a central hornets nest of something very old and very powerful.

As the buzzing clears the dust and gasses, the central region is jetting something back out. This has been going on for a really long time, as any mass does not reach escape velocity, and keeps recycling within the system.

M87's music of the spheres is asking the musical question,
how long has this been goin on.

Perhaps the Virgo region was very calm when the primordial hydrogen began to condense and curdle into stars. And there were no 'breezes' to stir it into areas of density and sparcity, like where we are in our local group.

As it slowly drew together, it made lots of globular clusters on the way, which then drew all together into one giant ball today.

BBT would fit this scenario, or reason it thusly, above.

The endless universe theory might explain it as, this has been going on for longer than anyone can recall ! Which would be longer than we might ever calculate it could possibly be. As energy in neither created nor destroyed, it is fungible and keeps going around the merrygoround of gravity and inertia, which keeps it in the super-galactic whirlpool that is M87.

It sure would be a trip to go there !!

It's just all those secondary systems besides the propulsion, that boggle me to invent.

Ah well, maybe in a thousand years.

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:11 am

Hello Kovil

As for the BBT,,,,,,,,no way,, every time I hear about the Big Bang Theory I wonder how it came about, that is the idea.

As for possible Black Holes around the bee hive most probable.

One main reason why it looks globular, is because of the spin of the Black Hole ejecting materials in all directions and not staying in one position to allow for the stars to settle into galaxy arms.

The jet is about 10 light years across, and its so powerful that it is possible in my opinion and nobody elses that ultra dense matter size of football field and maybe bigger are ejected from the Black Hole.

The magnetic fields within this jet stream must be neutral and the vector forces pointing outwards, like the eye of a cyclone and ejecting matter out into deep space many thousands of light years.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap041211.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html

Smile,,,,,,,,,I could be wrong,,,,,,,,but if I'm right it opens a can of worms

kovil · Post by **kovil** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:55 pm

Harry,

What I was meaning is; that BBT would agree with that explanation. Not that I am in agreement with the premise of the BBT.

I am curious to learn more Harry, about your ideas of this spining black hole that is "ejecting ultra dense matter" .
In your estimation would the ejecta be leaving the gravitational influence of M87? or would it still be contained within that local gravitational sphere?

I can see your point, that as the rotating black hole would be like a rotating rainbird sprinkler throwing stuff all over and keeping the overall shape of the galaxy spherical, rather than a flat disc. As opposed to an oscilating fan spray that makes a linear distrubution of material.
Sorry about the poor metaphores.

I presume the ultra dense matter is a result of the inability of the black hole to ingest material as fast as it would like, and some is slung off, out of an overcrowding in the admission line, as the forces are too great to allow it to remain there waiting, as more is arriving daily.

Once again, the plurality prevents the duality from collapsing, and all of this universe from disapperaing down a rabbit hole all too quickly !

and now for a musical quote that perhaps no one will understand,
from Tom Waits; " . . . for even Jesus wanted just a little more time,
when he saw her Walkin' Spanish down the hall . . ."

. . . consciousness wanted just a little more time to contemplate all of THIS,
once it saw Energy/Matter spiraling/dancing into the Black Hole . . .

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:18 pm

Hello Kovil

You said
"I presume the ultra dense matter is a result of the inability of the black hole to ingest material as fast as it would like, and some is slung off, out of an overcrowding in the admission line, as the forces are too great to allow it to remain there waiting, as more is arriving daily."

Why do you think matter is ingested, and overcrowded in the admission line?

Matter is neither created or destroyed.
The Admission line is not where the jet stream occurs.
The question is what makes the Black Hole become active?
What makes the Black Hole settle down to a stable spin allowing galaxy arms to form?

Where do you get the rabbit hole from?
Thats movie stuff.

Collapsing and compaction of the atomic structure is not a new thing.
The question is what parts are compacted?
Neutrons as in neutron stars
Quarks as in quarks stars
missing parts Black Hole
What happens in a Black Hole is a progressive stage from either a neutron star or a quark star.
There is no way that things go down a rabbit hole. The size of a black hole can be determined by its mass and estimated distance. see m87 links
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html

As for my ideas on the Jet Stream, i give full credit to all the images and links from everybody.

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:40 pm

I have often thought about compacting matter as it relates to programs like "Honey I Shrunk the Kids" or even "Fantastic Voyage". The problem I see with these types of programs is that the compaction process shouldn't shed weight. you might become a 1/2 inch tall but you would still weigh 180 lbs.

If you slow down the orbiting electrons in all the atoms of a given object simultaneously one of two things would happen.

1) The atoms would loose cohesion as their electron shells shrink and the object would be disintegrated. Or
2) The atoms would shrink in size as their electron shells shrink to maintain a stable orbit, and the object would occupy less space but maintain its same weight.

Maybe the latter is what happens to matter in a black hole.

harry · Post by **harry** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:41 am

Hello BMAONE23

You are on the wrong star track.

You need more info on the atomic structure, formation of stars, ultra dense matter and much more.

Qev · Post by **Qev** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:27 am

On the subject of black hole jets, my understanding of the process is, roughly, that as matter falls into the black hole, it forms into an orbiting, roughly-planar disk (called an accretion disk). The material closer to the event horizon orbits faster than material further out, causing a differential in velocity and massive amounts of frictional heating. This ionizes the gases, forming a rapidly spinning plasma, which creates a tremendously powerful magnetic field. It's this field that ejects some part of the disk material, heated to great temperatures, along the rotational axes of the black hole, forming the energetic jets that we observe.

I don't believe that the spiral shape of galaxies is a function of the specific rotation of the black hole at their center. It may in fact be the other way around; since the material of spiral galaxies tends to be concentrated in one plane, as this material falls into the black hole, it would tend to give its angular momentum to the black hole, aligning their spins. No?

kovil · Post by **kovil** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:58 pm

Harry,

I'll attempt to explain some of my views in answer to your questions.

Why do you think matter is ingested, and overcrowded in the admission line?

Well, black holes gobble up as much matter as they can. And if there is any resistance to the material being ingested there will be an admission line; the accretion disk. Several things make for a slow-up in the ingestion process. As Qev explains a couple of posts earlier.

Matter is neither created or destroyed.
I might give a little disagreement on this one, as energy is neither created nor destroyed, but since "matter is a special state that energy has the ability to assume", you are correct in a round-about way.

The Admission line is not where the jet stream occurs.
Correct, the admission line is the accretion disk.

The question is what makes the Black Hole become active?
I would say the arrival of too much matter to be ingested, overloads the admission line and as more is arriving daily, that causes 'something' to start flinging some of it out in the form of the highly energetic polar jets we see.

What makes the Black Hole settle down to a stable spin allowing galaxy arms to form?
OK here we go with some real speculation on my part. The black hole wants to become an entity, as matter is ert and sentient - it has the consciousness that it exists and would like to have a life. That is the settling down part.
The stable spin part is developed out of the properties of angular momentum and how gravity exerts its influence on particles that have the property of inertia bound up in them, like protons and bosons.
The galactic arms part is a more complex phenomenon. There is an APJ article I posted on APOD somewhere about the 'MHD in the ISM as DNA'.
Basically the black hole having an intense magnetic field, causes the interstellar hydrogen to coallesce along the magnetic field lines of strength; this phenomena extends quite far from the galactic center. As the hydrogen later-on, clumps to form stars; these star formation areas are what form the spiral arms, stars going nova make the heavy dust that forms the dust lanes that then make the arms so visible. This is a bit of a new idea. So it is still be researched.
It does take a while for this galactic size magnetic field to arise, as a giant black hole needs to evolve first. Which came first , the arms or the central core superdensity? It is now thought that the core causes the arms to form by magnetohydrodynamic action, rather than gravity primarily causing the arms to form; gravity is a secondary action in the arm formation after the magnetic field lines arrange it in a setup fashion.

Where do you get the rabbit hole from?
The 'down a rabbit hole' is just a cute metaphore for all matter in the universe disappearing into a black hole, or holes. And there sure seem to be a wide variety of things causing a slow down in the black hole's ability to gobble up the universe's matter. Which gives all of us living creatures more time to comtemplate all of THIS. Which might be the point to life.

That's movie stuff.
Me go to the movies ? ! If I see one more 'melting of the golden gate bridge with microwaves' , I'm going to hurl ! , haha

But seriously, Harry, I often regress into colorful type metaphores as I am not the strongest on 'all that math'. Besides how would I begin to express things like that mathematically ? It is the conceptualization of the principle's in action that lends to the understanding of what is going on best.

I agree with your idea or description of the massive black hole as being a redistributor of material from the central region in a galaxy to the further out regions in a galaxy.

Do you think the material that M87 is jetting is going to escape M87 or will it be contained by gravity and recycled into new stars, and ultimately windup at the center again only to be jetted out again?

If as Bilderbeck liked to express, a black hole really is a hole, a hollow space with an empty inside and an event horizon shell for the outside. Kind of like an M&M with no chocolate inside just the thin thin candy shell !
And that shell is where the material is not allowed by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle to be ingested.
It stacks up in the admission line, only to be rejected, like at a New York Broadway Play audition, where each particle after stating its reasons why it wants be a cast member of The Black Hole ; A Musical, is rewarded for its efforts with the loud exclamation of , NEXT !
And it is summarily ejected from the audition proceedings by the polar jet !
Exit stage North !

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:47 pm

Here is another possibility for what is happening at M87. Might it be possible for M87 to have not one supermassive central black hole but several? They could all be spinning (rotating) relative to each other like gears.

Did anyone have a Hot Wheels set with a "Super Charger" power set-up?

Could there be several black holes at the center that are not only orbiting each other around a gravitationally central point but also be spinning in such a manner as to create a "Super Charger" effect that acts to expel matter in a single direction much like the Hot Wheels car is forced around the track? Their gravitational orbit would also serve to create a vortex effect on any matter that was expelled. kind of like a "vortex jet"...

Starship Asterisk*

The Coma Cluster of Galaxies 3/21/06

The Coma Cluster of Galaxies 3/21/06

Coma Cluster

Approaching exit M87 on the Universal Expressway

Walking Spanish . . .

Shakespeare at the Black Hole Theater