The Coma Cluster of Galaxies 3/21/06

[Qev]

Multiple black holes at the center of a galaxy is most certainly possible, and I'm pretty certain they've found evidence of such. I know I've read articles about this, but the closest I can find right now is an APOD article about the Andromeda galaxy and it's peculiar double nucleus.

It's thought that this tends to occur due to galaxy mergers, with the central black holes of the interacting galaxies ending up orbiting each other.

Jets are not an unusual phenomenon among astrophysical objects; many massive, rotating objects display jet behaviour. Neutron stars, quasars and black holes, and even young, newly-formed stars will all form jets. The jets from supermassive black holes tend to be particularly powerful, since one is dealing with a massive gravity engine that is often a significant fraction of our entire solar system in size. For example, the black hole at the center of our galaxy would be roughly 17 million kilometers in diameter, and it's a 'small' one as such black holes go. The black hole at the center of M87, estimated at three billion solar masses, would be 50% larger than the orbit of Pluto.

[astroton]

Kovil,

Blackholes are made from imploding star (I know you all know but, I had to write that to start the paragraph). Theoritically, When they implode to very small size, comparable to an atom, they have created a singularity - in theory.

My question is what gives a blackhole stability. A surface that implodes so fast that the escape velocity is higher than c, unless there is some other type of force or a structure of matter that resists further implosion (I have read some explaination relating to smaller structures of matter and plasma but none too satisfactory), all blackholes are destined to become singularities.

If anyone has come across a real good stuff on this, that doesn't explain the process in "a mary-go-round way", or "you see you don't understand that" way, or if anyone has better explaination than "you don't understand that", please provide links or explain.

[kovil]

what gives a blackhole stability?

I would say we don't know ! (is this an allowed answer? haha)

As in the situation of a star in sudden implosion collapse when gravity overcomes the nuclear fire holding it up as when iron begins to fusion and the heat suddenly diminishes quickly as the iron fusion requires more energy than is liberated in the fusion; it goes endothermic, rather than exothermic as with all the lighter elements leading up to this point.

I wonder why iron does that. This would make a good subject for further study. Something about the design of the space lattice in the nucleus? Or is it more alchemistic?

Yes, why doesn't a black hole explode like an iron producing star does?
It may be that the force of gravity at this point is strong enough that any explosive tendencies generated by the imploding material is moot in relationship to gravity.

Schwartzchild may have something to say about this, or Chandrasekhar.

[astroton]

Kovil,

Yes, the matters that we find on earth (Beyond Iron) were products of supernovas of some generation stars before the Sun came about. If a star is more massive than sun by 1.44 than the gravity plays bigger role on their evolution by turning them into Neutron Stars, blackholes etc.

Something has to be happening inside there that sustains blackholes or else all of them are doomed to be singularities which obviously exist in theory and hard to find evidence of.

[harry]

Hello All

I'm sorry that I'm not with it lately. Ihave some projects to complete and they are taking my brains apart. I feel like a Black Holes,,smile

"The question is what makes the Black Hole become active?
I would say the arrival of too much matter to be ingested, overloads the admission line and as more is arriving daily, that causes 'something' to start flinging some of it out in the form of the highly energetic polar jets we see".

It has nothing to do with too much. Because some Black Holes are only a few million times that of our sun and are ective and others 3 billion times and they are active.
Its the internal happenings within the Black Hole to generate gravitational
electromaganetic convectional currents. These need to be addressed by a scientist in the field of ultra dense plasma. But! I assume high(+)and low(-) pressure systems creating these jet streams like a cyclone.

As for being active all Balck Holes are active and do expell matter. But what makes a super active black hole that spins with a jet stream causing chaos at random to the shape of the galaxy.

Black Holes are not doomed to be singularities. Singularities are just part of the recycling process. The question is can Black Holes die. No they cannot but they can collide and mix ith other black holes.

As for energy and matter being created and destroyed no way.

Iron producing star explodes due to the internal pressures created by the shell of iron and nickel and other elements.

The reason why the Black Holes do not explode is because matter collapses within and light and heat energy cannot escape holding in the pressure cooker. Similar to to core of a star, the core is of high density reducing the amout of energy escaping. If it was of low density the core would explode due to the lack of gravity and the built up of heat.

Black Holes can be staged from an imploding star, but not the only way.

If it was the only way than we assume that stars came first and not Black Holes. Chicken or the egg.

As for M87 having more than one Black Hole i would say yes. But images on the following link only show one supermassive Black Hole.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html

The Black Hole is indifferent. It stabilty is determined by the activity around it.
M87 is in a central position surrounded by about 35 galaxies including the Milkyway.
The galaxies surrounding M87 many are spiral meaning that the Black Holes have been reduced to a size that its activity does not create random chaos to the shape of the galaxy.

[orin stepanek]

I found this; http://www.seds.org/messier/galaxy.html This tells me that elliptical galaxies are much older than spirals as their star forming material is pretty much used up. So maybe some time the Milky Way may become an elliptical. So the farthest galaxies in the universe ought to be spirals as we would be seeing their infant years. then the black holes in spirals would be smaller than those in ellipticals as they would be a lot younger. Just my point of view.
Orin

[harry]

Hello Orin

How can one be older than the other?

If in the process of recycling goes, elliptical to galaxy arms to elliptical to galaxy arms and so on.

How than do you define the stages?

http://skyserver.sdss.org/edr/en/astro/ ... laxies.asp
http://skyserver.sdss.org/edr/en/astro/ ... laxies.asp
http://www.spacetelescope.org/bin/image ... lax&from=9
Elliptical galaxies
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ellipt ... axies.html

Spiral Galaxies
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/spiral_galaxies.html


Many types

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/apo ... h?Galaxies

[Qev]

Well, generally elliptical galaxies have very low rates of star formation, have very little free gas and dust, and have older populations of stars than spiral galaxies, which does tend to imply greater overall age.

[harry]

Hello Qev


Thats one way of looking at it.


Correct or incorrect,,,,,,,,,,,they have their defined stage.


As for star formation how do you explain M87 with its present star formation having more than twice that of our galaxy.

Star formation is not only formed from dust within the galaxy but also formed from the ejected matter from the Black Hole jet streams.

If the spiral galaxy somehow feeds the central Black Hole to the extent of activating the Black Hole to produce a faster spin and release a jet stream you would basically reform the spiral galaxy into an elliptical form.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950930.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951016.html


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951001.html

http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_sources/starburst.html

[orin stepanek]

Hi Harry! Did you consider that M87 has more stars because it used up its interstellar gas and dust in forming these stars. Less dust = more stars???
It is also larger to begin with.
Orin

[Qev]

As for star formation how do you explain M87 with its present star formation having more than twice that of our galaxy.

I'm not sure if you mean here that M87 is currently undergoing more star formation than our galaxy, or if it has more stars than our current galaxy. Assuming the latter, M87 is a big galaxy, probably formed from the mergers of many other galaxies over the history of the universe. Galaxy mergers usually trigger massive bursts of star formation, consuming a great deal of gas. At this point, M87 has probably used up most of its supply of gases, and has a truly stupendous number of stars. There must be some gassy material left, however, as the activity of the central black hole engine shows.

Star formation is not only formed from dust within the galaxy but also formed from the ejected matter from the Black Hole jet streams.

Well, stars form from the gas clouds present in galaxies. Black hole jets, to my knowlege (and I could be wrong here), don't generally eject significant amounts of material compared to they typical clouds that collapse to form stars. However, the shock wave caused by the passage of the jet through a gas cloud can most certainly trigger star formation.

If the spiral galaxy somehow feeds the central Black Hole to the extent of activating the Black Hole to produce a faster spin and release a jet stream you would basically reform the spiral galaxy into an elliptical form.

Again, I don't think the amount of material ejected by the black hole jet is significant compared to the mass of the galaxy itself. It's my understanding that elliptical galaxies form due to galactic collisions, with tidal forces disrupting the shapes of the original galaxies into the classic elliptical shape.

Say, your second link there reminds me strongly of the Cartwheel Galaxy. It's interesting, at their scale galaxies act almost like liquids.

[BMAONE23]

Funny that you should make the "Liquid" analogy. I believe that they do act like a liquid in that if you were to take a time lapse movie of a spiral galaxy over a span of a couple hundred million years you would see the spiral unwind slightly but you would also notice what looked like a boiling effect in star clusters and globular clusters thruought the galactic plane.

[harry]

Hello All

We should not make any quick theories as to how much material is ejected from the jet streams.

M87 jet stream is huge and the amount of material ejected needs to be studied more.

We are looking at a Jet stream bigger than our solar system. The question is this. Can these jet streams eject ultra dense matter that is held within the Black Holes and what size are these. Are they big enough to seed a star or a cluster of stars.

Some jet streams are small,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970413.html

Quasars,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960818.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960824.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap961117.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap961125.html

M87,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050316.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960305.html

The jet is composed of fast moving charged particles and has broken into knots as small as 10 light years across.

These knots are the focus of the discussions.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950913.html

M87 is much bigger than an average galaxy, appears at the center of a whole cluster of galaxies known as the Virgo Cluster, and shows a very high number of globular clusters. These globular clusters are visible as faint spots surrounding the bright center of M87. In general, elliptical galaxies contain similar numbers of stars as spiral galaxies, but are ellipsoidal in shape (spirals are mostly flat), have no spiral structure, and little gas and dust.

Example of a globula cluster of stars
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950726.html
A globular cluster is a system of about one million stars that together orbit a galaxy. One of the brightest globular clusters in our Milky Way galaxy is the pictured M15.

Can the jets of M87 fuel to create in someway these globular clusters of stars.

As for m87 producing stars, it has all the fuel that it needs as shown by the active jet.

In the recent times we have been given images that have changed our ideas of the universe. We all need to think and question and than think and question. I for one have realized how little I know and try to keep out of my own way.

Star formation is not limited to within the spiral arms or parts other than the central core.

[Qev]

Bear in mind that the jet emanating from M87 is effectively a giant electron beam, with a few other types of subatomic particles mixed in for good measure; something like what's displaying the image on your television screen.

Theory indicates that in order to generate a beam of the power we observe, the black hole at the center of M87 would need to be consuming matter at a rate of between one-half to twenty solar masses per year. The mass of material ejected as the jet is only going to be a tiny fraction of this amount. The shockwave of the beam's passage may trigger star formation in existing clouds of gas, but there isn't going to be enough matter, nor matter of the right type, making up the beam itself to form stars.

Regarding ultra-dense matter being ejected... beyond Hawking radiation, no matter escapes a black hole, as we understand it. Now, by escape, I mean that nothing that passes the event horizon of the hole can return; anything outside of the event horizon has at least some possibility of escape. Conditions outside of the event horizon are probably not conducive to the formation of any sorts of degenerate material; tidal effects would most likely disrupt concentrations of mass and 'smear them out'.

[harry]

Hello Qev

You said"jet emanating from M87 is effectively a giant electron beam"

"the black hole at the center of M87 would need to be consuming matter at a rate of between one-half to twenty solar masses per year"
"Regarding ultra-dense matter being ejected... beyond Hawking radiation, no matter escapes a black hole, as we understand it. Now, by escape, I mean that nothing that passes the event horizon of the hole can return; anything outside of the event horizon has at least some possibility of escape. Conditions outside of the event horizon are probably not conducive to the formation of any sorts of degenerate material; tidal effects would most likely disrupt concentrations of mass and 'smear them out'."
You are maybe right in what you state.

But! I feel you are wrong on the 3 statements.

The jet stream is not just an electron beam.
The Black Hole can suck in more than 20 solar masses per year. very samll number.
The event horizon is a point in space where the vector forces are directed into the Ultra dense matter (BH). this ultra dense matter creates its own covectional electromagnetic gravitational forces ejecting material out into deep space thousands of light years.
Qev i think you need to get more info on this subject.

[orin stepanek]

http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu ... tes32.html

Harry! it tells us here that elliptical galaxies have no star formation. They are composed of old population 2 stars.

Orin

[Qev]

Hello Qev

Hey Harry.

You are maybe right in what you state.

But! I feel you are wrong on the 3 statements.

The jet stream is not just an electron beam.
The Black Hole can suck in more than 20 solar masses per year. very samll number.
The event horizon is a point in space where the vector forces are directed into the Ultra dense matter (BH). this ultra dense matter creates its own covectional electromagnetic gravitational forces ejecting material out into deep space thousands of light years.
Qev i think you need to get more info on this subject.

Regarding the M87 jet, all the information I've read on the subject seems to indicate that it's primarily composed of high-energy electrons and a smattering of other subatomic particles (probably a significant number of positrons among other things). The jet emits energy through synchrotron radiation, as they move through the magnetic field of the black hole and the surrounding galaxy.

Measurements by astronomers of the energy output of this black hole indicate the numbers I mentioned regarding the amount of material it is consuming. It believe it could certainly consume matter at a higher rate than this, however it would show up in an increased energy output in the region. I didn't intend to imply that it was a limit on what it could do, but rather what it is doing.

The event horizon is the surface defined by the distance from a black hole where its escape velocity is exactly equal to the speed of light; it isn't a 'surface' in the conventional sense, it's not made of matter or anything at all in fact. Once anything with zero or more mass passes this threshold, it's gone for good... or at least gone until the unimaginably distant future when Hawking radiation causes the black hole to begin evaporating.

It sounds to me like you might be talking about a competing theory to black holes, usually called gravastar or dark energy star theory, which isn't something I know terribly much about. It's not a terribly widely accepted theory at this point, due to some problems explaining how some of the conditions required can come about.

[harry]

Hello all
have a look at this link.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... Reber.html

Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe
Time is merely a sequence of events. There is no beginning nor ending. The material universe extends beyond the greatest distances we can observe optically or by radio means. It is boundless. The energy from hot material is recycled by electrodynamic (not thermodynamic) means. The material from dying galaxies is recycled into new galaxies. Details of material and energy distribution change on a small scale. Over any large volume and long time the gross features of the universe remain stable. I am not offering a finished product. I am attempting to instill thinking about the Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe.

[harry]

Hello all
have a look at this link.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... Reber.html

Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe
Time is merely a sequence of events. There is no beginning nor ending. The material universe extends beyond the greatest distances we can observe optically or by radio means. It is boundless. The energy from hot material is recycled by electrodynamic (not thermodynamic) means. The material from dying galaxies is recycled into new galaxies. Details of material and energy distribution change on a small scale. Over any large volume and long time the gross features of the universe remain stable. I am not offering a finished product. I am attempting to instill thinking about the Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe.