Most Interest Image: Bacteriophages (APOD 21 Apr 2008)

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indiaaditya
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Most Interest Image: Bacteriophages (APOD 21 Apr 2008)

Post by indiaaditya » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:33 am

I must say that this image is a very very different image from the standard images!

As a person who has not missed a single image for last 1 year I have never as of yet encountered an Image which is so unrelated to astronomy!

To top it all, there is not even a hint of any obtuse reference to how it may be related to space or ET life!

Amazing indeed, but I must say a welcome relief. Daily reading of Startdust, nebulae, etc. etc. can get boring.

It's very much similar to seeing a very beautiful girl passes you by in a hardware store.
You wonder what she's doing there, but her presence does'nt upset you, not even a little bit

APOD team ROCKS!

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Re: Most Interest Image

Post by geonuc » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:41 am

What image are you referring to?

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Re: Most Interest Image

Post by bystander » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:56 pm

geonuc wrote:What image are you referring to?
I would assume http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080421.html.

APOD: 2008 April 21 - Bacteriophages: The Most Common Life-Like Form on Earth
indiaaditya wrote:To top it all, there is not even a hint of any obtuse reference to how it may be related to space or ET life!
Bacteriophages from outer space might have been the source of life on earth. (How's that for an obtuse reference).

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Bacteriophages (APOD 21 Apr 2008)

Post by brucewilliams » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:34 pm

This picture has no reference or proven relationship to astronomy. Why is it the Astronomy Picture of the Day?
There are ample other forums to discuss biological anomalies without putting them in unrelated fields of study.
Seek the truth, it is not always obvious or apparent

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Agreed

Post by beckfield » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:45 pm

I've seen this happen occasionally and wondered about it. I don't think it's a huge deal, though. I've seen the occasional astronomy photo on Earth Science PoTD too.

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Bacteriohages Apr 21

Post by tjroberts2 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:54 pm

The caption says these are a millionth of a millimetre in size, i.e. one nanometre. Thia cannot be true - they would only be about 10 atoms wide! In fact the usual size is around 200nm, so that 5000 would span one mm.

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Re: Bacteriohages Apr 21

Post by neufer » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:44 pm

tjroberts2 wrote:The caption says these are a millionth of a millimetre in size, i.e. one nanometer. Thia cannot be true - they would only be about 10 atoms wide! In fact the usual size is around 200nm, so that 5000 would span one mm.
Enterobacteria phage T4 is the "500 lb gorilla" of the the phage world:

<<Enterobacteria phage T4 is a phage that infects E. coli bacteria. Its DNA is 169-170 kbp long; one of the longest DNAs in phages, and is held in an icosahedral head. T4 is also one of the largest phages, at approximately 90 nm wide and 200 nm long.>> -Wikipedia
---------------------------------------------------
http://www.intralytix.com/Intral_PhageHistory.htm
<<Bacteriophages are bacterial viruses that attach to their specific hosts and kill them by internal replication and bacterial lysis. According to most estimates, bacteriophages inhabited Earth about 3-5 billion years ago, and since that time they have controlled the levels of bacteria in the environment via a classical “predator-prey” relationship.>>
................................................................
http://www.monstergalaxy.com/lifesize_alien_figure.php
. "alien rewards"
------------------------------------------------------------
<<In 1926 in the Pulitzer-prizewinning novel Arrowsmith, Sinclair Lewis fictionalized the application of bacteriophages as a therapeutic agent. Lewis declined the award. In a letter to the committee, he wrote:
.
"I wish to acknowledge your choice of my novel Arrowsmith for the Pulitzer Prize. That prize I must refuse, and my refusal would be meaningless unless I explained the reasons.
.
All prizes, like all titles, are dangerous. The seekers for prizes tend to labor not for inherent excellence but for alien rewards; they tend to write this, or timorously to avoid writing that, in order to tickle the prejudices of a haphazard committee. And the Pulitzer Prize for Novels is peculiarly objectionable because the terms of it have been constantly and grievously misrepresented.
.
Those terms are that the prize shall be given "for the American novel published during the year which shall best present the wholesome atmosphere of American life, and the highest standard of American manners and manhood." This phrase, if it means anything whatsoever, would appear to mean that the appraisal of the novels shall be made not according to their actual literary merit but in obedience to whatever code of Good Form may chance to be popular at the moment.">>[/b]
Art Neuendorffer

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Phage Sizes

Post by OriEri » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:35 am

200nm is pretty big. Virii with envelopes like Herpes, Influenza or Mumps viruses get into that range.

One virus in the page APOD linked to, namely Parvo is only 25nm across. Still that is about 1.4 orders of magnitude larger than 1nm! I sent them a message.

As to the relation to astronomy, Bacteriophages are terribly simple things and prokaryotes are thought to be amongst the earliest forms of organisms we would definitively consider alive. So, both are topics of interest in astrobiology.

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How the smallest are really in charge of things

Post by kovil » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:30 am

Around 1970 I did a report for school, and picked bacteriophages for the subject. I was quite surprised to read about them, knowing zip before. It blew away the teacher too! Was surprised and pleased to read a great deal more about them today, basically none inbetween then and now.

As it looks like our understanding of medicine will take a big left turn and into a whole new area of understanding from bacteriophages presently, outerspace could have them floating around, or on other planets and moons ? And if so, that makes NASA's concern about bringing them back here or taking ours out there much more understandable.

Just when we think we've got it all figured out . . .

Forgot to say, how bacteriophages look suspiciously like the Magog swarm ships when they punch thru the Andromeda's hull !! LOL
Last edited by kovil on Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bacteriophages

Post by GeorgeScott » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:05 am

If these things are the earliest forms of life (if they actually qualify as life) and are everywhere, and feed on bacteria, how did the bacteria survive?

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Bacteriophages

Post by OriEri » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:19 am

I don't know if virii were the earliest...after all they can't reproduce in the current form w/o bacteria! But maybe something like them was.

Bacteria survive today in a world of macrophages just fine. It is a matter of reproducing faster than you are eaten.

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bacteriophages

Post by jimmycrackcorn90745 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:27 am

:shock: If these little guys are found in a drop of salt water in our ocean, then they can be anywhere in our universe. Did they come from another planet or galaxy!? :idea: LIFE ELSWHERE!?!? :?

HINT** Has anyone else noticied that the bacterium looks like an alien head? If you look closely you will see an alien shaped head in the bacterium body. :)

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Source of Life?

Post by indiaaditya » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:25 am

You mean that bacterophiles created life? How could they have come to earth? Any comet or equivalent will definitely burn out on entry. So how coyuld they have survived?

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OOps!

Post by indiaaditya » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:26 am

Bacteriophages not bacterophiles! Sorry!
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Re: Most Interest Image

Post by geonuc » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:36 am

bystander wrote:
geonuc wrote:What image are you referring to?
I would assume http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080421.html.

APOD: 2008 April 21 - Bacteriophages: The Most Common Life-Like Form on Earth.
Yeah, I know. I was just trying prompt the OP to identify the image so we don't have multiple threads, which happened in the case anyway.
Last edited by geonuc on Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bacteriophages (APOD 2008 April 21)

Post by geonuc » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:39 am

brucewilliams wrote:This picture has no reference or proven relationship to astronomy. Why is it the Astronomy Picture of the Day?
There are ample other forums to discuss biological anomalies without putting them in unrelated fields of study.
Occasionally having non-astronomy pictures was recently addressed in some detail by the forum admins (and the members). Can't seem to find the thread, though.

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Re: Source of Life?

Post by bystander » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:34 pm

indiaaditya wrote:You mean that bacterophiles created life? How could they have come to earth? Any comet or equivalent will definitely burn out on entry. So how coyuld they have survived?
One theory (out of many) of the origin of life on earth is that it was carried to earth on asteroids and comets (ice balls, also a source of water). Just a theory AND a obtuse reference.

Of course, my statement that bacteriophages were the origin of life was tongue in cheek. Viruses require a host organism to reproduce, therefore bacteriophages from space could not have been the first life form on earth.
Last edited by bystander on Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bacteriophages (APOD 2008 April 21)

Post by bystander » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:41 pm

geonuc wrote:Occasionally having non-astronomy pictures was recently addressed in some detail by the forum admins (and the members). Can't seem to find the thread, though.
Shelf Cloud (APOD 22 Jan 2008)

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Re: How the smallest are really in charge of things

Post by iamlucky13 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:48 pm

kovil wrote:Around 1970 I did a report for school, and picked bacteriophages for the subject. I was quite surprised to read about them, knowing zip before. It blew away the teacher too! Was surprised and pleased to read a great deal more about them today, basically none inbetween then and now.

As it looks like our understanding of medicine will take a big left turn and into a whole new area of understanding from bacteriophages presently, outerspace could have them floating around, or on other planets and moons ? And if so, that makes NASA's concern about bringing them back here or taking ours out there much more understandable.

Just when we think we've got it all figured out . . .

Forgot to say, how bacteriophages look suspiciously like the Magog swarm ships when they punch thru the Andromeda's hull !! LOL
Interesting story. I'm surprised you hadn't seen any mention of them between then and now. While far from a popular science topic, they get mentioned from time to time. They're important in some research biology, as they can mess up an experiment, or be used to control an experiment by killing off certain type of bacteria when desired. They've been adapted with certain surface proteins that bind to particular toxins...so you mix infected bacteria with a contaminated solution, and it helps clean things up. They're a concern in fermentation because an infection can wipe out the yeast.

Bacteriophages figure into the plot of Michael Crichton's Prey. You might enjoy that that book, although the main technology being discussed is nanotechnology.
"Any man whose errors take ten years to correct is quite a man." ~J. Robert Oppenheimer (speaking about Albert Einstein)

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Re: Source of Life?

Post by BMAONE23 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:02 pm

Nah...couldn't be Bacteriophages that created life...it has to be the Midi-chlorians. WIKI excerpt: Midi-chlorians were microscopic life forms that existed inside the cells of all living things.

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Re: How the smallest are really in charge of things

Post by kovil » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:48 am

Hi iamlucky,

After school I spent a decade unlearning all the crap I learned in High School and figuring out who I was. Then I started working on houses and doing construction, read Scientific American a lot, but not much contact with heavy science till the late nineties. That's why !

The principles of how Life works sure are a trip.

The CCC2 looks to be interesting in Sept. See ya there.

K

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Post by harry » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:11 am

Hello All

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriophage
A bacteriophage (from 'bacteria' and Greek phagein, 'to eat') is any one of a number of viruses that infect bacteria. The term is commonly used in its shortened form, phage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrophage
Macrophages (Greek: "big eaters", from makros "large" + phagein "eat") (mø[1]) are cells within the tissues that originate from specific white blood cells called monocytes. Monocytes and macrophages are phagocytes, acting in both non-specific defense (or innate immunity) as well as specific defence (or cell-mediated immunity) of vertebrate animals. Their role is to phagocytose (engulf and then digest) cellular debris and pathogens either as stationary or mobile cells, and to stimulate lymphocytes and other immune cells to respond to the pathogen.
Knowing this we look at the fossil evidence and we see that viruses were the first to evolve.

Simple DNA structures.

Now we look at the complex molecules created by Stars


Interesting reading
The Xerox Effect on the Importance of Pre-Biotic Evolution
http://www.bigbangtango.net/website/Xerox/Xerox.htm
Recent infrared spectral data have shown that complex organic molecules can form rapidly (over a few thousand years) in the environments around old stars and are abundant in many regions of space. These elements and molecules will likely find their way into new stars and planets as they form from molecular clouds
BIOCOSMOLOGY
ABSTRACT: Twenty years ago (King 1978) I proposed the biocosmological thesis that the form of life's origin and evolution is a cosmological interactive process defined in the cosmic symmetry-breaking at the origin of the universe. With the passage of time, the pendulum has shifted from the improbability of life as a random molecular accident to an awareness that central biomolecules may be cosmologically abundant products of the clouds forming young stars leading to an RNA-era in which both catalysis and replication emerged from one cosmologically dervied molecule RNA. . This paper unveils the non-linear quantum foundations of biocosmology as the founding science of life.

Complex Molecules in Space
Present status and prospects with ALMA
http://www.isa.au.dk/meetings/alma06/al ... tracts.pdf
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Post by Sputnick » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:28 pm

The organic molecules in clouds could perhaps grow in density and harmonic communication sufficient to achieve union, forming gas creatures (my new topic) .. an earthly example being the huge fungal life forms not detectable to the normal human eye but hundreds of years old .. a relatively short lived and easily seen example being a fairy ring.

Thanks to you posters who provide educational information on this forum.
If man were made to fly he wouldn't need alcohol .. lots and lots and lots of alcohol to get through the furors while maintaining the fervors.

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Post by bystander » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:37 pm

harry wrote:Knowing this we look at the fossil evidence and we see that viruses were the first to evolve.

Simple DNA structures.
It is unlikely viruses evolved first. Viruses cannot replicate w/o a host organism. Some bioligist do not consider viruses to even be a life form. Some viruses are RNA based, not DNA. Bacteria were probably the first life forms, then their predators, bateriophages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus
Viruses have been described as "organisms at the edge of life", but argument continues over whether viruses are truly alive. According to the United States Code, they are considered microorganisms in the sense of biological weaponry and malicious use. Scientists, however, are divided. Things become more complicated as they look at viroids and prions. Viruses resemble other organisms in that they possess genes and can evolve in infected cells by natural selection. They can reproduce by creating multiple copies of themselves through self-assembly.

Viruses do not have a cell structure (regarded as the basic unit of life), although they do have genes. Additionally, although they reproduce, they do not self-metabolize and require a host cell to replicate and synthesize new products. However, bacterial species such as Rickettsia and Chlamydia are considered living organisms but are unable to reproduce outside a host cell.

An argument can be made that accepted forms of life use cell division to reproduce, whereas viruses spontaneously assemble within cells. The comparison is drawn between viral self-assembly and the autonomous growth of non-living crystals. Virus self-assembly within host cells has implications for the study of the origin of life, as it lends credence to the hypothesis that life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules.

If viruses are considered alive, then the criteria specifying life will have to exclude the cell. If viruses are said to be alive, the question could follow of whether even smaller infectious particles, such as viroids and prions, are alive.

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Post by Sputnick » Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:22 pm

"The comparison is drawn between viral self-assembly and the autonomous growth of non-living crystals. Virus self-assembly within host cells has implications for the study of the origin of life, as it lends credence to the hypothesis that life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules."

so .. if life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules, with gas clouds having organic molecules, then gas cloud beings (creatures, etc.) are possible.
If man were made to fly he wouldn't need alcohol .. lots and lots and lots of alcohol to get through the furors while maintaining the fervors.