APOD: A Triple Sunrise Over Gdansk Bay (2009 Aug 04)

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RJN
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APOD: A Triple Sunrise Over Gdansk Bay (2009 Aug 04)

Post by RJN » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:34 pm

//Edit by an Administrator
This thread is now locked. The cause of the triple sunrise was determined to be a double paned glass window (double glazed). You may have come here to add your input but it is very likely that your idea was already posted by someone else with the same idea. Please read through the thread to understand why this conclusion was arrived at.
//Edit over


http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090804.html

This thread is meant to hold the discussion of the possible cause(s) for the Triple Sunrise Over Gdansk Bay as shown on the above link. Attached at the bottom of this post is text sent by a person related to the photographer that might be helpful in the discussion. I am not sure what causes this effect myself, but I am hopeful that APOD can act as a "community solution engine" in this case. The collective readership of APOD has tremendous power, in my opinion, to figure out sky-related phenomena. Please keep the discussion polite and know that the photographers are not trying to trick anyone but trying to better understand the image(s) themselves.

- RJN

*** Recent email that might help better understand this effect follows: *******

"Hello Robert,

Noemi says that the brighter of the "shadow" suns was visible with
the naked eye. When she noticed it, she used the camera to view it more
clearly because of the zoom ability.

The pics were taken on July 10, 2009 at 4:30 a.m. local Gdansk time.
Noemi had earlier reset the camera to local Gdansk time. There are
actually 4 photos in the set. Have attached all four in the attached zip
file so that when you download it the time stamps are maintained within
the file.

The photo http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9802.JPG
had not been sent in the earlier email.
This was taken at 4:30:22. This is how the sun looked to Noemi's naked
eye without the camera or the zoom. Focal length = 6.0mm. Aperture=2.7
ISO=80. shutter speed=1/60 s.

http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9804.JPG ,
taken at 4:30:38, is how the sun looked with optical
zoom focal length = 20.2mm. Aperture=3.5. ISO=80 shutter speed=1/160 s.

http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9805.JPG
img_9005.jpg, taken at 4:30:50, is how the sun looked with optical zoom
and focal length = 56.8mm. Aperture=4.0. ISO=80 shutter speed=1/320 s.

http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9810.JPG ,
taken at 4:31:30. This one also had not been sent in the
earlier email. This shows the "shadow" suns merging with the primary
sun. Optical zoom, focal length = 72.0mm. Aperture=3.5 ISO=80
Shutter speed = 1/400 s.

The lens optical zoom focal length range is 6.0mm to 72.0mm.

Hope all of that helps.

Barry & Noemi"

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by canopia » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:08 pm

My first reaction was the picture(s) must have been taken through a twin (or multi) layer window glass. Those glasses cause this king of multiple images of bright objects. But if there were no glasses in the photographers' line of sight, I cannot guess.

TTezel

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:22 pm

RJN wrote:http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090804.html

This thread is meant to hold the discussion of the possible cause(s) for the Triple Sunrise Over Gdansk Bay as shown on the above link.
My impression is that the images were made somewhat obliquely through a window. That's based on the orientation of the balcony seen in the first image, as well as what appear to be reflections from behind the glass. If so, the effect is easily explained as multiple reflections off glass surfaces- I assume given the location that double or triple glazed windows would be common.
Chris

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by JohnD » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:22 pm

What's going on?
You're discussing "the APOD for August 4th 2009" at, my time, 2225 GMT, on the 3rd August 2009.
Is this a precognitive thread?

The primary link to the APOD doesn't work, but then even the Internet doesn't work prospectively.

Has this thread leaked out from a moderators forum, where you're discussing tomorrow's APOD?

JOhn

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by orin stepanek » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:29 pm

I don't really know but it looks like a mirage effect like you get on the highways on a really hot day. Only this seems to be over a body of water. I think atmospheric conditions can create a lensing effect. :? :?: :?:
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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:41 pm

orin stepanek wrote:I don't really know but it looks like a mirage effect like you get on the highways on a really hot day. Only this seems to be over a body of water. I think atmospheric conditions can create a lensing effect.
They can, but I can't think of anything that could produce a significant horizontal lensing effect. And the images are much sharper than you see from atmospheric lensing and distortion.
Chris

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by bystander » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:29 pm

JohnD wrote:What's going on?
You're discussing "the APOD for August 4th 2009" at, my time, 2225 GMT, on the 3rd August 2009.
Is this a precognitive thread?

The primary link to the APOD doesn't work, but then even the Internet doesn't work prospectively.

Has this thread leaked out from a moderators forum, where you're discussing tomorrow's APOD?
It was posted by Dr. Nemiroff (RJN). I think we can assume he knows what the APOD for 2009 August 4 is going to be.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by apodman » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:35 pm

Yeah, but how did those other privileged characters get to see it?

Maybe it's in those other 4 links in RJN's post:

http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9802.JPG
http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9804.JPG
http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9805.JPG
http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9810.JPG

---

Astronomy history in Gdańsk, Poland ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Hevelius
http://www.timebooth.com/wordpress/2006/08 wrote:in this city was the astronomical clock in St. Mary Church. Hans Duringer created the clock in the fifteenth century. The marvelous device was reconstructed after the Second World War and still indicates the time, date, phase of the moon and the position of signs of the zodiac.

Image
This astronomical clock is in the world's largest brick church.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by bystander » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:45 am

apodman wrote:Yeah, but how did those other privileged characters get to see it?

Maybe it's in those other 4 links in RJN's post:

http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9802.JPG
http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9804.JPG
http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9805.JPG
http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9810.JPG
I doubt that anyone has seen the apod (except RJN) but those links are what everyone is talking about. RJN has done this before when he planned to post a link to the Asterisk* in the APOD.

Red Glow Over Minnesota (2009 February 17) (RJN: 2009 Feb 10)
Unusual Light Pillars Over Latvia (2009 January 12) (RJN: 2009 Jan 10)

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by geckzilla » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:50 am

I set out to find some more examples of triple sunsets taken by others. I used Google to translate this from Italian into crudely formed English.
I was in coach, the sun was perpendicular to the glass and the reflection has come true. Potevo esimermi da scattare ? Anche qui avevo il polarizzatore e il vetro del pullman faceva un effetto polarizzante analogo. Qui invece ho lavorato parecchio. Could fail to take? Even here I had the polarizer and the glass of the coach gave a similar polarizing effect. Here instead I worked a lot. CIAO HELLO
http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... ry_state0=
Image

Here's another:
The windows in my office refract the sunset over Toronto
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanca/2775719471/
Image


I'm thinking the window pane glass idea is correct.
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by orin stepanek » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:34 am

RJN wrote:http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090804.html



"Hello Robert,

Noemi says that the brighter of the "shadow" suns was visible with
the naked eye. When she noticed it, she used the camera to view it more
clearly because of the zoom ability.



Barry & Noemi"
Since the shadow suns were visible to the naked eye; I'm thinking they were not being made through a glass pane. Wouldn't Noemi notice if the shadow suns were being the result of looking through glass? I still think atmospheric conditions contributed to the condition.

Orin
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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by Karenna » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:34 am

I have seen atmospheric "lensing" or perhaps more appropriately, "reflection" of the sun. Once in 1973 a little after 10:30 at night in late July from 41.5 degrees North I looked northwest and saw a ghostly sun sitting on the horizon. Deep orange, but almost translucent seeming. And this was almost an hour after sundown. I figured it was a reflection off the ionosphere somehow.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by keshlam » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:36 am

I'm still leaning toward reflection due to one detail: the slight flare seen at the bottom of the middle solar disk echos that seen at the bottom of the brightest image, which appears to be a horizon/mirage effect, even though it appears slightly higher in the sky. I may be missing something obvious, but I can't account for that unless the image is being replicated after that flare has occurred... which means closer to the photographer.

So I too am waiting to hear whether this was open-air or through a window pane. If the latter, I'm willing to wield Occam's razor.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by Opie » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:50 am

I can't pretend to explain the cause of the triple sunrise but I do have one comment. Unless my eyes deceive me, there is a faint fourth sunrise image to the left of the other three. So, are we looking for someone to explain a triple or a quadruple sunrise?

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by TheSciencePundit » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:11 am

I agree with keshlam. That flare (probably an atmospheric effect in the main sun due to its proximity to the water) below the second sun in picture 9805 looks like a reflection that happened much closer (like a window pane or camera effect). Since the photographer said that the secondary suns were visible to the naked eye, I'm betting on window pane.

@orin stepanek
Since the shadow suns were visible to the naked eye; I'm thinking they were not being made through a glass pane. Wouldn't Noemi notice if the shadow suns were being the result of looking through glass?
Not necessarily. If these pictures were taken from behind a window (which, for now, I believe they were), it's very likely that it never occurred to Noemi that it might look quite differently outside the window.

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3 suns over Gdansk

Post by JMALLB » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:30 am

It has to be caused by the camera's lenses. If it was atmospheric refraction, the three suns would be above each other.

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A Triple Sunrise Over Gdansk Bay (2009Aug4)

Post by MHonekamp » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:53 am

I made a similar observation looking through a double window towards the sun. The angle between the line-of-sight and the window was not perpendicular but about 45 degrees such that I could see a replicating effect produced by secondary and tertiary reflexions. In fact, I could see the afternoon sun four or fivefold.
Could "A Triple Sunrise Over Gdansk Bay" show the same effect?

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by smardy » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:58 am

Looks like it's on a balcony to me outside the window, you can see the balcony next door.
Assuming it is not a window. I see no reason it cannot be explained by air of different densities at different distances. fast air currents travelling in different directions have a "phase boundry" between them, depending on the angle of the boundry you can easily get duplicates. obviously it's not common, so unusual weather patterns are allowed.

The horizontal nature is indeed odd. I observe a similar effect in the chimney/s of the ship, some distance out to sea. But to a far lesser extent as befits their respective distances.
Why would the suns be so far apart but the chimneys so close together if the glass was the answer. The glass is the same distance from the eye so the doubles should be equally staggered, they are proportionally staggered. The lensing is greater the further away, therefore the image has travelled through more disturbance..
lastly the many suns are not in a straight line, the centers form a curve. Such an obvious aberation in a window would be visible from all directions and even in poland I hope get the pane rejected.
looking at http://apod.nasa.gov/image/0908/IMG_9810.JPG the ship remains the same, but at least one sun has gone and the others are joining, as the effect is disappearing at higher distances between the ship and the sun.

looking at geckzilla's 2nd found offering http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanca/2775719471/ I see a cloud above the second sun very reminiscent of the smoke trail from a rocket after launch previously on apod http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020926.html, that had been diverted by wind.

lastly and I think most obviously for those who bothered to read all that, you might like to consider how the suns are not in a straight line, but the original sea horizon is flat? a window of glass of different thicknesses curved which deformes the sun to such an extent surely couldn't avoid the sea having a hill.
Last edited by smardy on Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by andetodd » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:00 am

I bet this had to do with the layers of the atmosphere reaching a rare state that allowed this to happen.

In this case the major layers of the atmosphere are acting like a multiple paned window. With these people in the right place to see this unique focus.

I've seen a different phenomenon that seems to fit as a possible cousin of this one. These sunsets appear to happen multiple times over. The sun first sets into a heavy marine layer offshore and completely disappears before reappearing in the area under this cloud bank looking larger yet more distant. Sometimes this will happen again making three 'sunsets'.

Another point to investigate, look at the bright silhouettes around the brightest of the sun images. I bet it is the light from the other mirage images hitting the part of the atmosphere that is letting us see the frontmost sun image. One is the half circle that starts at the bottom and rises to its equator. The other is the oval yellow shape coming just over the top of the main sphere.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by spzeidler » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:01 am

In order to determine where the reflection occurred it would be useful to analyze the cloud pattern in front of the sun images. If the images are the same apart from brightness, it has to be reflection on the observer side of the clouds, which makes "window pane" rather likely.
If on the other hand the cloud patterns differ, ie the reflections shine through different parts of the clouds, they obviously have to occur behind them, making it an atmospheric phenomenon.

"just looking at it" the cloud patterns seem to differ, but not by a lot, and may be a result of the main image being too bright to see brightness dynamics (or to have the camera record them either). One'd have to cut and paste the reflection suns to see if the height of the clouds matched, and whether the second and third image were identical apart from brightness.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by mmiller » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:07 am

I'm not an expert on such things, but if this reflection were seen through a window, how can the cloud formations be in front of the second sun? It would seem to me that something in front of the sun, like those whispy clouds, is reflecting the light backward and we are seeing the light reflected from that. Sort of like if you take a laser pen and point it through a window, the light will go through, but the glass will reflect it behind you as well. So a person on the other side of the window will see your lase pen and the reflection on the wall behind you as well.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by MadCat-75 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:14 am

Hi,

i think, there is a window.

there are reflections of the balcony in the lower left corner of the first picture:

Image

in the red sections i guess there are reflection of vertical bars and in the green section a handrail or someting else like a windowframe or windowsill.
i assume, thats the window stands 45° to the sun.

see ya,

Heiko

PS: sorry for bad grammar, i write english not very often.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by keshlam » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:14 am

Re not being in a straight line: Float glass is not optically flat to begin with, and large panes are a lot less rigid than folks may be assuming. We don't normally notice any distortion, but I can more easily believe there's enough to account for a bit of misalignment than that there's an atmospheric effect.

But i'd be delighted to be wrong.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by Timaru_lad » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:25 am

I see this effect all the time, and I can photograph it too. However it's cased by looking out through double glazed windows. It's even more stunning at night as you can get many relections....which I believe is cased by light bouncing back and forth between the layers of glass, and as there is a black background you can clearly see the reflections.

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Re: Cause of Triple Sunrise (APOD 2009 August 4)

Post by bellach » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:40 am

Interesting that reflection off the water didn't also duplicate as vibrantly as did the sun. And yes I know the reflection doesn't have the same light intensity as the sun direct... but still.