APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct 25)

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APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct 25)

Postby APOD Robot » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:58 am

Image Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface

Explanation: Is there enough water on the moon to sustain future astronauts? The question has important implications if humanity hopes to use the Moon as a future outpost. Last year, to help find out, scientists crashed the moon-orbiting LCROSS spacecraft into a permanently shadowed crater near the Moon's South Pole. New analyses of the resulting plume from Cabeus crater indicate more water than previously thought, possibly about six percent. Additionally, an instrument on the separate LRO spacecraft that measures neutrons indicates that even larger lunar expanses -- most not even permanently shadowed -- may also contain a significant amount of buried frozen water. Pictured above from LRO, areas in false-color blue indicate the presence of soil relatively rich in hydrogen, which is thought likely bound to sub-surface water ice. Conversely, the red areas are likely dry. The location of the Moon's South Pole is also digitally marked on the image. How deep beneath the surface the ice crystals permeate is still unknown, as well as how difficult it would be to mine the crystals and purify them into drinking water.

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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby Ann » Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:49 am

Water, water, not everywhere on the Moon but in many places,
Nor any drop to drink?

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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby mexhunter » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:21 am

With water on the moon actually be easier to establish an outpost. Just need to know the technology so you can take advantage of this important resource.
I guess it will not be as easy as this:
http://i.makli.com/Water-on-The-Moon.jpg
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby fatcitymax » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:20 am

Outpost? To what, Mars? It's a boring desert too. This is just NASA fantasy. Manned space flight is almost finished, at least for Americans. In the distant future perhaps hyper-intelligent, non-biological machines that can withstand cosmic ray particles will venture into interstellar space.
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby JohnD » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:00 am

Therefore all seasons shall be sweet to thee,
Whether the summer clothe the general earth
With greenness, or the redbreast sit and sing
Betwixt the tufts of snow on the bare branch
Of mossy apple-tree, while the nigh thatch
Smokes in the sun-thaw; whether the eave-drops fall
Heard only in the trances of the blast,
Or if the secret ministry of frost
Shall hang them up in silent icicles,
Quietly shining to the quiet Moon.

(Frost at Midnight, Coleridge; last lines)
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby neufer » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:44 am

JohnD wrote:
    Therefore all seasons shall be sweet to thee,
    Whether the summer clothe the general earth
    With greenness, or the redbreast sit and sing
    Betwixt the tufts of snow on the bare branch
    Of mossy apple-tree, while the nigh thatch
    Smokes in the sun-thaw; whether the eave-drops fall
    Heard only in the trances of the blast,
    Or if the secret ministry of frost
    Shall hang them up in silent icicles,
    Quietly shining to the quiet Moon.
(Frost at Midnight, Coleridge; last lines)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horn_Blows_at_Midnight wrote:
Athanael (Jack Benny): Hey... I'm getting wet!
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

<<The Horn Blows at Midnight (1945) is a comedy fantasy starring Jack Benny. Its biggest claim to fame, apart from its star, is its failure at the box office, and this fact was exploited often for laughs in Benny's popular radio comedy series The Jack Benny Program. The plot involves the third trumpet player in the orchestra of a radio program, named the Paradise Coffee Program, who falls asleep listening to the reading of the advertisement: "The coffee that makes you sleep." He dreams he is the angel Athanael, a trumpeter in the orchestra of heaven, who is such a terrible musician that he is relieved of his position and sent on a mission to Earth to blow the "Last Trumpet" at midnight, signaling the end of the world. Complications arise when two fallen angels named Osidro and Doremus want to continue their physical existence of pursuing pleasures. While Athanael encounters experiences of mortal life, such as eating food and the need for money, the fallen angels try to prevent Athanael from going through with his mission by having his trumpet stolen. The script was re-worked into an episode of radio's Ford Theater, broadcast March 04, 1949. The radio story focuses on Athaniel's moral dilemma about whether or not the people of Earth, just suffering World War II, deserved to be extinguished with the Earth or given another chance.>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__ King Henry IV, Part ii Act 3, Scene 2

FALSTAFF: We have heard the Chimes at Midnight, Master Shallow.

SHALLOW: That we have, that we have, that we have;
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimes_at_Midnight wrote:
Click to play embedded YouTube video.


<<Chimes at Midnight, also known as Falstaff and Campanadas a medianoche (Spanish title), is a 1965 film directed by and starring Orson Welles. Focused on William Shakespeare's recurring character Sir John Falstaff, the film stars Welles himself as Falstaff, Keith Baxter plays Prince Hal (who will later become Henry V), and John Gielgud plays Henry IV. Jeanne Moreau appears as Doll Tearsheet and Margaret Rutherford as Mistress Quickly. The film's narration, spoken by Ralph Richardson, is taken from the chronicler Raphael Holinshed.

    ___ King Henry IV, Part i Act 1, Scene

    HOTSPUR: By heaven, methinks it were an easy leap,
    . To pluck bright honour from the pale-faced moon,
    . Or dive into the bottom of the deep,
    . Where fathom-line could never touch the ground,
    . And pluck up drowned honour by the locks;
    . So he that doth redeem her thence might wear
    . Without corrival, all her dignities:
    . But out upon this half-faced fellowship!
Near the end of the film, Welles slightly alters a scene from Henry V, Act 2, Scene 2 in which Henry V pardons an imprisoned street rabble-rouser just before his expedition to invade France. In Welles' version it is stated that this man is Falstaff, and the incident he is pardoning is Falstaff's disturbance of Henry's coronation. Although both the pardoned prisoner and Falstaff are said to drink wine, Shakespeare's original has no implication the pardoned prisoner is Falstaff. In both Welles' film and in Henry V, this scene is followed by the death of Falstaff.

Welles held this film in high regard and considered it along with The Trial (1962) as his best work. As he remarked in 1982, "If I wanted to get into heaven on the basis of one movie, that's the one I'd offer up." Many critics, including Peter Bogdanovich and Jonathan Rosenbaum, also consider it Welles's finest work. The scene depicting the Battle of Shrewsbury has been particularly admired, serving as an inspiration for movies like Braveheart and Saving Private Ryan.>>
Last edited by neufer on Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby orin stepanek » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:08 pm

Besides having drinking water on the moon; the possibility of growing food for the outpost also exists. :shock:
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby oldfield1 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:12 pm

I get that the asterisk is the south pole, but what is the white collumn to the lower right?
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby neufer » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:35 pm

oldfield1 wrote:
I get that the asterisk is the south pole, but what is the white collumn to the lower right?

That's the south pole.
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby JohnD » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:33 pm

Art,
I thought that Coleridges's "silent icicles, Quietly shining to the quiet Moon." were an intruiguing quote, relevant in the light of the Moon'sa ice.
Your knowledge of obscure (very obscure!) 40s movies is also intruiging, but why is a fallen angel saying, "I'm getting wet" relevant?

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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby emc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:55 pm

He has his reasons.
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby emc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:59 pm

sorry too embarrassing after reviewing... could have been misunderstood... decided it wasn't funny
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby neufer » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:06 pm

JohnD wrote:
Art,

I thought that Coleridges's "silent icicles, Quietly shining to the quiet Moon." were an intruiguing quote, relevant in the light of the Moon'sa ice.

Your knowledge of obscure (very obscure!) 40s movies is also intriguing, but why is a fallen angel saying, "I'm getting wet" relevant?

Well the water on the moon is wet and/or effectively at midnight.

But it would take Jack Benny to 'dead pan' deliver explanations of all my visions. :roll:

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel wrote:
<<In Abrahamic religions, Gabriel is an archangel who serves as a messenger from God. He first appears in the Book of Daniel, delivering explanations of Daniel's visions. In the Gospel of Luke Gabriel foretold the births of both John the Baptist and of Jesus.

Islam believes that Gabriel was the medium through whom God revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad. He is called the chief of the four favoured angels and the spirit of truth. In Islamic tradition, though not specified in the Qur'an, the trumpeter sounding the trump of doom is not Gabriel, but Israfel.

In English-speaking culture, the image of Gabriel as the angel that shall blow the trumpet blast that initiates the end of time and the general resurrection at the Last Judgment, which has no source in the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament, is a familiar trope; (This might be taken from Norse Heimdall who according to legends, will sound the Gjallarhorn, alerting the Æsir to the onset of Ragnarök where the world ends and is reborn.) it ranges from its first appearance in English in John Milton's Paradise Lost (1667) to African-American spirituals. Four years later "Blow, Gabriel, Blow" was introduced by Ethel Merman in Cole Porter's Anything Goes (1934). The mathematical figure given the modern name "Gabriel's Horn", was invented by Evangelista Torricelli (1608–1647); it is a paradoxical solid of revolution that has infinite surface area, but finite volume.>>
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby emc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:52 pm

Does discovering water on the moon further validate this theory?
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby Chris Peterson » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:03 pm

emc wrote:Does discovering water on the moon further validate this theory?

I don't think so. There is very little water on the Earth, and what is here in nearly all on or in the crust. This would have been largely volatilized, and what might have survived can represent only the tiniest fraction of lunar material- and even less surficial lunar material. Also, when the Moon was formed, it is very possible that the Earth hadn't collected much water yet.

Icy bodies have been hitting the Moon for billions of years. It is hardly surprising that we find near-surface water there.
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby neufer » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:31 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Icy bodies have been hitting the Moon for billions of years.
It is hardly surprising that we find near-surface water there.

Especially by NASA scientists with an obsession to raise research funds. :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Freeze wrote:
ImageImage
<<Mr. Freeze, real name Dr. Victor Fries, is a DC Comics supervillain, an enemy of Batman. Created by Bob Kane, he first appeared in Batman #121 (February 1959). Originally called Mr. Zero, he was renamed and popularized by the 1960s Batman television series, in which he was played by George Sanders, Otto Preminger and Eli Wallach. In the 1997 film, Batman & Robin, he was portrayed by Arnold Schwarzenegger. His character was used because the series creators had originally wanted to use the character of Two-Face (aka Harvey Dent), but network executives thought the character would be too scary for the numerous children who watched the show; as a result, an alternative villain with a physical deformity and a more serious personality, Mr Freeze, was substituted.

Freeze is a scientist who must wear a cryogenic suit in order to survive, and bases his crimes around a "cold" or "ice" theme, complete with a "cold gun" that freezes its targets solid. Batman: The Animated Series retold Mr. Freeze’s origin introducing his terminally ill, cryogenic-ally frozen wife, which greater explained his obsession with ice and need to build a criminal empire to raise research funds. The episode was seen as groundbreaking for a Saturday morning cartoon and helped set the tone for the complex moral motivations seen constantly in the rest of the series. This back-story was also made canon in the comics and has been Fries' official origin in almost every incarnation of Batman since. This leads many fans to think of him as the most sympathetic villain.>>
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby Indigo_Sunrise » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:01 pm

oldfield1 wrote:I get that the asterisk is the south pole, but what is the white collumn to the lower right?



So, if the white column is the south pole, then the red asterisk is what? Where the water sample was found? Maybe a bit of further explanation in the description is needed, for those of us that are not all-knowing.

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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby neufer » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:08 pm

Indigo_Sunrise wrote:
So, if the white column is the south pole, then the red asterisk is what? Where the water sample was found?

More or less. It is where
"scientists crashed the moon-orbiting LCROSS spacecraft into a permanently shadowed crater near the Moon's South Pole."

Indigo_Sunrise wrote:
Maybe a bit of further explanation in the description is needed, for those of us that are not all-knowing.

At least it will be clear to those who have read the Asterisk.
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby Ann » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:11 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
emc wrote:Does discovering water on the moon further validate this theory?

I don't think so. There is very little water on the Earth, and what is here in nearly all on or in the crust. This would have been largely volatilized, and what might have survived can represent only the tiniest fraction of lunar material- and even less surficial lunar material. Also, when the Moon was formed, it is very possible that the Earth hadn't collected much water yet.

Icy bodies have been hitting the Moon for billions of years. It is hardly surprising that we find near-surface water there.


Is there any way of assessing how much water there is in the Earth's crust versus how much there is in the Moon's crust? To make the comparison easier, let's talk about percentages. What's the percentage of water in the Earth's crust versus the percentage of water in the Moon's crust?

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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby neufer » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:34 pm

Ann wrote:
Is there any way of assessing how much water there is in the Earth's crust versus how much there is in the Moon's crust? To make the comparison easier, let's talk about percentages. What's the percentage of water in the Earth's crust versus the percentage of water in the Moon's crust?

The Moon probably has a couple of cubic kilometers of water.

The Earth has over a billion cubic kilometers of water.
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby rdstacy » Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:03 pm

Has there been any such studies done on the back side of the moon ?
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby Chris Peterson » Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:10 pm

Ann wrote:Is there any way of assessing how much water there is in the Earth's crust versus how much there is in the Moon's crust? To make the comparison easier, let's talk about percentages. What's the percentage of water in the Earth's crust versus the percentage of water in the Moon's crust?

I don't think this question can be answered. There is essentially no free water in the Earth's crust, except very near the surface (and this can be considered surface water). Crustal water is contained in inorganic hydrates, and this accounts for only a tiny fraction of the crustal content. This applies to both the andesite-like continental crust and the basalt-like oceanic crust. Most of the material making up the Moon was presumably not from crustal material, but from the Earth's mantle. Here, there is even less water in hydrated chemicals (surface water is carried into the upper mantle at subduction zones). And nobody knows much of anything about the lunar crust; what is known is inferred from theory and a very small number of surface samples. It is presumed to be basaltic, and therefore can be expected to have almost no hydrates.

I don't think that the water that has been detected on the Moon can be considered "crustal" any more than oceans or lakes on the Earth are "crustal water". The water on the Moon is probably not left from its formation process, but has been added over time. What is needed is some actual samples for isotopic analysis- something that can't be done from orbital sensors.

I should also point out that the image in today's APOD is suggestive of pure water (which would need to be in the form of ice), not hydrated minerals.
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby DavidLeodis » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:39 am

The image in the APOD of November 28 1995 that is brought up through the 'Moon's South Pole' link is fascinating. Wow, what a cratered scene!
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby neufer » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:31 pm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_Desert wrote:
<<The Deadly Desert is the magical desert that completely surrounds the Land of Oz. On maps, the Eastern quadrant of the desert is called the Deadly Desert, while the other three quadrants of desert are called the Shifting Sands, the Impassable Desert, and the Great Sandy Waste.

The desert was originally merely a desert, being as dangerous as any natural desert but no more. Indeed, in The Marvelous Land of Oz, Mombi tries to escape through it and Glinda chases her over the sands, but in Ozma of Oz, it has become a magical desert with life-destroying sands, a feature that remained constant through the rest of the series. Anyone who sets foot into the sand of any of these deserts turns into sand themselves. The desert is used as a literary device to explain why Oz is essentially cut off from the rest of the world. However, it has been crossed several times by people from within Oz and from the outside world, with applied ingenuity, with magical assistance, or through unusual natural phenomena.>>
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Re: APOD: Water Ice Detected Beneath Moons Surface (2010 Oct

Postby Ann » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:28 am

Art, thanks for the map of Oz, but thank you even more for the delightful Batman comics cover by Curt Swan! Aahhh! I love Curt Swan and his Silver Age rendering of Batman and Superman. His portraits of them are so classically "clean", with a minimum of superfluous lines, and there is a very slight "roundness" to the square-jawed faces of these superheroes. When drawn by Curt Swan, even Batman was relatively often seen to smile. Swan even drew the typical superhero physique with a certain roundness, with medium-sized heroic muscles from an obviously pre-steroid age.

Finally I love the delightful, exquisite corniness of Curt Swan's Batman and Superman, let alone the utter corniness of a villain like Mr. Freeze. Just look at that rather skinny man in tights, wearing a funny little collar and his underwear over the rest of his clothes. Compare him with today's monstrous half steroid muscle, half murder machine kind of villain.

Ah, Curt Swan. Those were the days! Thanks for reminding me, Art!

Image

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