APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2011 Jan 09)

[APOD Robot]

The Antikythera Mechanism

Explanation: What is it? It was found at the bottom of the sea aboard an ancient Greek ship. Its seeming complexity has prompted decades of study, although some of its functions remained unknown. Recent X-rays of the device have now confirmed the nature of the Antikythera mechanism, and discovered several surprising functions. The Antikythera mechanism has been discovered to be a mechanical computer of an accuracy thought impossible in 80 BC, when the ship that carried it sunk. Such sophisticated technology was not thought to be developed by humanity for another 1,000 years. Its wheels and gears create a portable orrery of the sky that predicted star and planet locations as well as lunar and solar eclipses. The Antikythera mechanism, shown above, is 33 centimeters high and similar in size to a large book.

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[Beyond]

I wonder what else people of ancient times knew about things that maybe got lost and we don't even know about today??

[bystander]

APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2006 Dec 05)
http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9072

Lego Antikythera Mechanism
http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?p=138901#p138901

[jackobear]

I love the somewhat cross-disciplinary focus on a human artifact rather than a nebula for example. Nothing against nebulas, cuz they are awesome, but I suppose it speaks to the awesomeness of astronomy because it includes *everything*, even little known ancient bronze-age astrolabes. You could also draw a parallel in that they are both mysterious.

Cursed bronze age collapse...what a kick in the balls for the west that was

Weren't there several bronze age collapses?...There's the big one, but 3500BC to 1200BC is a very long time for us humans...I wonder what those prior 'high points' had to hide. Perhaps 'collapses' refers to it hitting many different regions. I also wonder about what cultural gems were crushed so haphazardly under the roman army.

I'm surprised this forum doesn't have more activity...btw, the registration confirmation email for this forum may not be working, I had to tell it to re-send...which worked. There's also no email address on the site if you haven't registered and you have a question...it failed to send to my server and yahoo's server on the first try. It could've just been me tho...

Thanks!

[neufer]

I wonder what else people of ancient times knew about things that maybe got lost and we don't even know about today??

http://tinyurl.com/3xym34u

[c]Antikythera Mechanism
Anti Rhythmic Namesake
Satanic Mayhem Thinker
Machinist Karate Hymen
Harkens Titanic Mayhem
Earthy Maniac Methinks
Yachtsman Hankie Mitre
Skinny Mahatma Heretic
Think Charismata Enemy
Chimney Skirt Anathema
Maharani Necktie Myths
Stinky Chimaera Anthem
Mainstream Hackney Hit[/c]

[NoelC]

So here's a complex machine from what, a few thousand years ago, barely recognizable.

What if 100,000 years ago there was a society that reached what we consider our "modern" level of sophistication. Would we even know they existed?

What if 65 million years ago there were reptilians who had achieved what we call "modern" technology or beyond? Could not the Earth have swallowed virtually every bit of evidence of that by now?

We do VERY occasionally find a few things that have survived millenia and are at best difficult to explain...



To think we have scoured every (cubic) inch of this planet and know its entire history would be beyond arrogant.

-Noel

[neufer]

So here's a complex machine from what, a few thousand years ago, barely recognizable.

What if 100,000 years ago there was a society that reached what we consider our "modern" level of sophistication.

Would we even know they existed?

1941 AD Picasso painting of Dora Maar au Chat

15,300 BCE Lascaux painting of Dun horse

---

[neufer]

So here's a complex machine from what, a few thousand years ago, barely recognizable.

What if 65 million years ago there were reptilians who had achieved what we call "modern" technology or beyond?
Could not the Earth have swallowed virtually every bit of evidence of that by now?

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

[BMAONE23]

So here's a complex machine from what, a few thousand years ago, barely recognizable.

What if 65 million years ago there were reptilians who had achieved what we call "modern" technology or beyond?
Could not the Earth have swallowed virtually every bit of evidence of that by now?

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

That image from Dinosaurs reminded me of this

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

[rstevenson]

We do VERY occasionally find a few things that have survived millenia and are at best difficult to explain...

I'm not sure that photo illustrates your point Noel. That Pumapunku block is from the Tiwanaku site in Bolivia and was cut between 1000 and 1500 years ago. While it is unusually precise for the time there is nothing about the techniques used that would have been impossible for masons back then. The only remarkable aspect of this sort of work prior to our modern mass-production techniques was that the society had to support the workers for long enough to perform that quality of work, and most societies couldn't afford to do that.

Rob

[Beyond]

WHOA!, rob, you must do some serious studying between Toroids

[rstevenson]

WHOA!, rob, you must do some serious studying between Toroids

Not really. I first clicked the Quote button on Noel's post to see the URL of the image he posted. That gave me the word Pumapunku. I Googled that and had a read of the Wikipedia page I found. I already had the general idea (I was one of those kids who would rather read three books than play one game of baseball) and the material I found through Google confirmed my first impression, that the block wasn't all that old. Combine that with my own knowledge of crafts (40 years as a professional woodworker, with side glances into metal and stone work as well as archeology) and it all seems quite normal and unremarkable.

Also, it's well known that toroids twist time, so by following a rigorous regimen of toroidal consumption, I end up with more than the usual amount of time to devote to these sorts of pursuits.

Rob

[BMAONE23]

Tis true, Toroids twist time, thankfully though, time twists toroids too
http://artfulparent.typepad.com/artfulp ... s-yum.html

Click to view full size image

[owlice]

Oh, I liked the show "Dinosaurs"! (Does this have to go into the "guilty pleasures" vault?)

Rob, wow! You always have more talents up your sleeve!! Is there anything aside from baseball you can't do? (And please pass the doughnuts; I need more time! Thanks!)

Oh, BMAONE23, did you have to provide a picture? I was hungry before; now I'm ravenous (an interesting state for an owl to be in)!

[neufer]

We do VERY occasionally find a few things that have survived millenia and are at best difficult to explain...

I'm not sure that photo illustrates your point Noel. That Pumapunku block is from the Tiwanaku site in Bolivia and was cut between 1000 and 1500 years ago. While it is unusually precise for the time there is nothing about the techniques used that would have been impossible for masons back then. The only remarkable aspect of this sort of work prior to our modern mass-production techniques was that the society had to support the workers for long enough to perform that quality of work, and most societies couldn't afford to do that.

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

[owlice]

I am curious as to why Giorgio A. Tsoukalos, born in Lucerne, Switzerland, speaks English with an accent that sounds as though his first language were Chinese (or perhaps another far Asian language) rather than one of Switzerland's four official languages.

And the History channel just sank in credibility; I have sometimes lamented not getting it. No more!

[neufer]

I am curious as to why Giorgio A. Tsoukalos, born in Lucerne, Switzerland, speaks English with an accent that sounds as though his first language were Chinese (or perhaps another far Asian language) rather than one of Switzerland's four official languages.

Giorgio is from far eastern Switzerland. (And the Conehead Family is from France. )

Please don't report Giorgio back to the home planet.

IGMtransfer: Intergalactic Radiative Transfer Code

And the History channel just sank in credibility; I have sometimes lamented not getting it. No more!

History, n. [L.historia, Gr. 'istori`a history, information, inquiry, fr. 'istwr, "istwr, knowing, learned, from the root of to know; akin to E. wit.]

1. A learning or knowing by inquiry; the knowledge of facts and events, so obtained; hence, a formal statement of such information; a narrative; a description; a written record; as, the history of a patient's case.

2. A systematic, written account of events, particularly of those affecting a nation, institution, science, or art, and usually connected with a philosophical explanation of their causes; a true story, as distinguished from a romance; -- distinguished also from annals, which relate simply the facts and events of each year, in strict chronological order; from biography, which is the record of an individual's life; and from memoir, which is history composed from personal experience, observation, and memory.

<<History, formerly known as The History Channel, is an international satellite and cable TV channel that broadcasts programs regarding historical events and persons, as well as various occult, pseudoscientific, and paranormal phenomena—often with observations and explanations by noted historians, scholars, authors, esotericists, astrologers, and Biblical scholars—as well as reenactments and interviews with witnesses, and/or families of witnesses.

Subjects include military history, medieval history, the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries, modern engineering, historical biographies, metaphysical subjects and disaster scenarios; a number of these documentaries are narrated by Edward Herrmann. Many programs compare contemporary culture and technology with the past, while some programs have a more esoteric focus such as conspiracy theory, religious interpretation, UFO speculation, or reality television. The History Channel maintains a corporate initiative called Save Our History, dedicated to the preservation of history and historical sites and artifacts, similar to in spirit but not to be confused with the National Trust for Historic Preservation.>>

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you to find "conspiracy theories" on a SOH-called History Channel!

[c]A Midsummer Night's Dream > Act I, scene I

LYSANDER: Ay me! for aught that I could *EVER* read,
Could *EVER* hear by tale or *HISTORY* .[/c][/color]

[owlice]

Geez, neufer, you scared me there for a second! I saw the code info flash up on the screen and thought for a sec I might have put a thread in the wrong forum (which I have done in the past...)!

I want to know when the Lego kit will go on sale, because I want one (thanks to bystander for alerting me):

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

[bystander]

I want to know when the Lego kit will go on sale, because I want one (thanks to bystander for alerting me):

Actually, it was neufer, see the Asterisk link. There are a lot of articles on it, here.

[Chris Peterson]

I wonder what else people of ancient times knew about things that maybe got lost and we don't even know about today??

Lots, I'm sure. But probably not much that we'd be too astounded by.

[NoelC]

I'm not sure that photo illustrates your point Noel.

Generally speaking, I don't think there's agreement on the age of the Puma Punku stuff. But the photo was just a general teaser.

If the photo doesn't light your fire, how about the perfect placement of blocks even the most powerful lifting machinery in the world today would have problems with...

I'm of the opinion time has wiped out more than we can possibly imagine. Perhaps one day we'll dig up something that will offer solid proof.

There's no reason to think people were any less smart thousands of years ago than they are today. A few probably found themselves with time on their hands...

-Noel

[rstevenson]

I'm not sure that photo illustrates your point Noel.

... If the photo doesn't light your fire, how about the perfect placement of blocks even the most powerful lifting machinery in the world today would have problems with...

Careful... there are floating cranes capable of lifting over 14,000 tons, and a portable, drive-on-the-highway crane which can lift 1200 tons. The largest blocks at the Tiwanaku site are only about 131 metric tons each.

... There's no reason to think people were any less smart thousands of years ago than they are today. A few probably found themselves with time on their hands...

Of course. But they need to eat, and that means that someone has to provide the labour to feed them or they won't get much done in their lifetime. And that means they have to give something back to the community that is valued. Not very many societies have been able to support inventors except in time of war -- including our own, perhaps.

Rob

[Chris Peterson]

So here's a complex machine from what, a few thousand years ago, barely recognizable.

It's a single artifact, and it's very recognizable as a machine. Sure, it took some clever reconstruction to really figure it out, but it's bronze, and was underwater!

What if 100,000 years ago there was a society that reached what we consider our "modern" level of sophistication. Would we even know they existed?

If by "modern" you mean "technological", I'd say absolutely.

What if 65 million years ago there were reptilians who had achieved what we call "modern" technology or beyond? Could not the Earth have swallowed virtually every bit of evidence of that by now?

Again, if we're talking about technology, I'd say we would be aware of it.

We do VERY occasionally find a few things that have survived millenia and are at best difficult to explain...

Difficult to explain because we don't understand context. But not difficult to recognize as the product of human invention, and not difficult to understand in terms of the technology involved.

To think we have scoured every (cubic) inch of this planet and know its entire history would be beyond arrogant.

It wouldn't be arrogant, it would simply be wrong. But we've sampled the planet very well, so the likelihood of missing a complete technological civilization seems extremely small.

[NoelC]

Careful... there are floating cranes capable of lifting over 14,000 tons, and a portable, drive-on-the-highway crane which can lift 1200 tons. The largest blocks at the Tiwanaku site are only about 131 metric tons each.

Sorry, I had shifted to another site, the ancient Incan city of Sacsahuamán near Cuzco, where placed blocks are estimated at 20,000 tons. The point is that thousands of years ago even 131 tons isn't exactly chopped liver, and no one can quite explain how they moved them. Or how they carved the stone in the image I showed above without modern metallurgy.

And Chris, I doubt very seriously whether you or any other human can actually fathom 65 million years of time passage. After the duration of one of our lifetimes (about a million times shorter than that) we simply have to use our imaginations. Biological things we saw when we were kids are gone. Stuff made of hard materials mere thousands of years ago is nearly gone (ever visited, say, ruins in England or Europe?). Finding fossilized bones from millions of years ago may be possible, but it seems to me we just haven't looked in enough places to say that it's likely we'd know about an advanced civilization - especially if it didn't cover the planet like the scourge that is us. Maybe after having reached a sufficient level of technology they just disintegrated everything out of existence. Or maybe it's just buried where we haven't looked yet.

Entire mountain ranges come and go in tens of millions of years.

It doesn't take much to imagine, in light of today's APOD of a device that shouldn't have been possible for another 1,000 years, that the commonly accepted view of history might have just a few holes in it.

-Noel

[Chris Peterson]

And Chris, I doubt very seriously whether you or any other human can actually fathom 65 million years of time passage.

Well, speaking as a geologist, I have a very good sense of what 65 million years means. I see nature around me in a context spanning nearly 2 billion years, with a resolution at times of only a few thousand years.

My opinion is that given the geographical and temporal range of fossils we've found, and the vast quantity of them, the likelihood that we could miss the remains of any technological predecessors in the last few hundred million years is very small. Yes, if they were very localized, it's possible. But I don't think it likely that an advanced technology would remain localized to one small part of the Earth.

There is nothing about the Antikythera mechanism that suggests another 1000 years was required for its development. Indeed, there would be nothing terribly surprising about finding such a device a few thousand years older than this one. The technology is simple, the knowledge behind it was well developed.