APOD: Hints of Higgs from the Large Hadron... (2011 Dec 18)

[newtmaker]

I count 8

[nstahl]

Ok I acknowledge finding Higgs, and the details about Higgs, is a Very Big Deal. But dammit they also want to make black holes with that, and while they say they're sure those black holes will then quickly evaporate there's a really, really big downside if they are wrong.

There is no danger. None at all, and the "knowledgeable people" who are concerned are being foolish.

First of all, so what if they create black holes that don't evaporate? They are still just subatomic particles with incredibly tiny masses. They aren't going to absorb other mass, because their event horizons are so small they virtually never intersect with other matter. You need something like hundreds of times the age of the Universe for such tiny black holes to grow to macroscopic diameters.

I saw that reassurance on, I believe, "Starts with a Bang". But his explanation seemed to ignore the fact that, the bigger it gets the faster it eats. It's somewhat reassuring.

Second, if the energies produced in the LHC are sufficient to produce microscopic black holes, then we must be surrounded by them- without apparent problem. Because the energies are nothing extraordinary. Cosmic rays of similar or higher energy occur all the time, and occasionally collisions must occur. We're still here, the Universe is still here, there's no evidence of things disappearing into spontaneously created black holes.

As the link I used earlier points out, the micro-holes generated by those extremely energetic cosmic rays don't stay around any time at all due to the speed of the rays. I don't know but I presume things generated at the LHC don't necessarily have those kinds of initial velocities. If they do I'd feel much better but wouldn't they be that much harder to study?

I sincerely hope these scientists are right and I'd sincerely like to believe they are totally objective but we don't know either one and the downside is incalculable.

Neither place would be far enough away anyways. The moon consumed would also consume us. Mars location would also be bad as it would likely desturb the plantary gravational balance and likely pull us out of our current orbit. Resulting in total human destruction as well...

I don't think so. You are thinking about enormous black holes with enormous mass; this would be a very small (but not micro!) black hole with the same mass as the moon or Phobos. At very much distance it should have the same gravitational effects as the moon. Some physicist can correct me if I'm wrong. We'd miss the moon for any number of reasons and we'd want to put warning beacons in orbit around the black hole formerly known as the moon. But I don't see why it would put the earth at risk. If anything caused the moon to hit earth we're gone anyway along with all our relatives except maybe the very most primitive living a mile or so underground.

[geckzilla]

Upper left, 2-nd beam in, between the 2-blue railings. A white shirted arm, face and black vest.

I don't see it.

[ZZotto]

I've always told my students that the smaller the thing you need to see, the bigger the microscope (or detector) you need to use.

[Beyond]

Upper left, 2-nd beam in, between the 2-blue railings. A white shirted arm, face and black vest.

I don't see it.

I put a copy of it in paint and tried to draw a line around it, which didn't come out too good, so i went to erase it, and lo and behold, it's easier to see with the white erased part. On the larger of the two magnification settings in APOD, it sure looks like part of a person to me. Partially hidden by the 2-nd beam.

atlas_cern_900.jpg

[Chris Peterson]

I put a copy of it in paint and tried to draw a line around it, which didn't come out too good, so i went to erase it, and lo and behold, it's easier to see with the white erased part. On the larger of the two magnification settings in APOD, it sure looks like part of a person to me. Partially hidden by the 2-nd beam.

I looked at that when I first scanned the image, and decided it wasn't a person. Could be wrong, but I think it's just some equipment that sort of lines up in a way that looks a little human.

[geckzilla]

Upper left, 2-nd beam in, between the 2-blue railings. A white shirted arm, face and black vest.

I don't see it.

I put a copy of it in paint and tried to draw a line around it, which didn't come out too good, so i went to erase it, and lo and behold, it's easier to see with the white erased part. On the larger of the two magnification settings in APOD, it sure looks like part of a person to me. Partially hidden by the 2-nd beam.

atlas_cern_900.jpg

Looks like some hose and some other stuff draped over something.

[Beyond]

I wouldn,t be surprised, after seeing all the mars stuff that can be seen two different ways. Perhaps it should be counted as a -half-, for at least resembling a person, IF indeed it isn't a person

[Chris Peterson]

As the link I used earlier points out, the micro-holes generated by those extremely energetic cosmic rays don't stay around any time at all due to the speed of the rays. I don't know but I presume things generated at the LHC don't necessarily have those kinds of initial velocities.

I fail to see how the velocity of a microscopic black hole would impact how long it takes to evaporate. If evaporation is real (as seems likely), it's a function of mass. If evaporation isn't real, there's nothing to make the microscopic black holes go away, regardless of how fast they are moving.

It seems obvious to me that since the LHC energies and events show up naturally, the consequences of operating the LHC can't be worse than what the Universe is already throwing at us. And there doesn't seem to be a problem there.

[Tszabeau]

Including the Blue Men Group and Cancer Man... 5.

[nstahl]

I fail to see how the velocity of a microscopic black hole would impact how long it takes to evaporate. If evaporation is real (as seems likely), it's a function of mass. If evaporation isn't real, there's nothing to make the microscopic black holes go away, regardless of how fast they are moving.

1. If it doesn't evaporate we'd like it to move on before it chews on us.
2. Not relevant to my concern, but if it's moving that fast there would be relativistic effects surely that would from our frame slow down the evaporation

[Chris Peterson]

1. If it doesn't evaporate we'd like it to move on before it chews on us.
2. Not relevant to my concern, but if it's moving that fast there would be relativistic effects surely that would from our frame slow down the evaporation

Well, since it's doubtful it would chew on anything before the Sun burns out, that doesn't seem like any big deal. Or, we can send it on its way; what would keep it here to begin with? Gravity is a really weak force- I doubt that the black hole would even feel it compared to EM forces. Have you calculated how long it would take a microscopic black hole to drift downward under the force of gravity alone?

Relativistic effects would extend the projected evaporation times (in our frame) from something like femtoseconds to microseconds. Doesn't seem to relevant to our concerns.

[nich]

I counted 11

[nstahl]

Having had zero direct experience with black holes, micro or otherwise, I question any certainties we think we have about how they behave. And gravity should draw a micro black hole toward the center of the earth just as fast as anything else. As you know mass cancels out of the equation of motion. What might slow it down would be collisions with (in this case absorption of) particles on the way. So if it starts down it really doesn't matter how long it takes to get there, it's eating all the way. And the more it eats the faster it eats. Again my concern is that we think we know, which is often good enough, but this time being wrong destroys the earth well before any of us are ready to leave it.

[DavidSamish]

I see a guy on the upper right below the orange striped duct going to the upper right. He's in the round porthole in the front right column with the lights on the right side

[Sandstone]

This is the first repeat picture I've seen on APOD (see February 25, 2008 http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080225.html)
Have there been other repeats in the past which I haven't caught?

Actually, this isn't a repeat. Due to the time-space distortions created in the warp field environment, two parallel universes are operating around the LHC, but they are out of synch about 3 1/2 years (something to do with Mercury's orbit and Dyson spheres, I think...) so what we're really seeing is a look at the same moment in two universes, not a repeat picture.

[guest23]

Look at 7:45 position, just outside and beyond the big sensor wheel at back center: two faces, next to each other, one in front removing helmet, the other bare headed. They look Indian.

[Biscuithead]

The photo may be a repeat but the news is fresh. Read Bystander's link. Truly fascinating stuff! What a bunch of clever monkeys.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23337&p=164653#p164653

[neptunium]

Actually, this isn't a repeat. Due to the time-space distortions created in the warp field environment, two parallel universes are operating around the LHC, but they are out of synch about 3 1/2 years (something to do with Mercury's orbit and Dyson spheres, I think...) so what we're really seeing is a look at the same moment in two universes, not a repeat picture.

And how do you know that space-time distortions are causing a parallel universe to form? The world would be destroyed by now if that were to happen. And can you explain how you know that these "universes" are 3 1/2 years apart in time? What do Mercury's orbit and Dyson spheres have to do with these "universes"? Wouldn't these "universes" have something different seen in "them"

[Lostinspace]

Wow! What a picture. I would really like to see that one in 3D. I can't see how it would be flipped since the man is obviously standing where gravity sucked him . Unless you mean the picture was mirror imaged.

As for other comments on the dangers of creating black holes in the lab, I remember when the bomb was tested, there were some who feared a chain reaction that would destroy the atmosphere., I am not a physicist, but someone always brings up some fear of the unknown.

[Lostinspace]

Sandstone: You don't really think anybody would be in that thing when it was operational do you?

[Lostinspace]

no beginning, no end, just middles that bend

[Lostinspace]

no beginning, no end, just middles that bend

[ChrisP]

Interesting that the pic is actually flipped horizontally. APOD can't be blamed though, it's flipped at the source as well: http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/910381?ln=en
Happy Holidays!

I don't believe it is. If it were, the letters in the scaffolding would be reversed (mirrored). As it is, they're simply upside-down on the larger one in the lower left. But that's likely just the way it was assembled. The smaller scaffold in the center of the far right side is correct, suggesting the image is correctly oriented.

[Winky-Flink]

Actually, this isn't a repeat. Due to the time-space distortions created in the warp field environment, two parallel universes are operating around the LHC, but they are out of synch about 3 1/2 years (something to do with Mercury's orbit and Dyson spheres, I think...) so what we're really seeing is a look at the same moment in two universes, not a repeat picture.

And how do you know that space-time distortions are causing a parallel universe to form? The world would be destroyed by now if that were to happen. And can you explain how you know that these "universes" are 3 1/2 years apart in time? What do Mercury's orbit and Dyson spheres have to do with these "universes"? Wouldn't these "universes" have something different seen in "them"

Gee wiz, neptunium. There's at least a kabillion universes in parallel with ours, all 3 1/2 years out of synch with each other and us. Not to mention the ones that are 2 minutes apart or 17 microns apart or 183,622 orders of magnitude larger or smaller, ad infinitum. Of course they have something different to be 'seen' in them but they have lots of things the same, too. You don't get around much. Watch more TV.