APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 16832
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:20 am

owlice wrote:
Guest wrote:
geomousey wrote:http://www.atoptics.co.uk/fz505.htm
provides a good explanation
great find! :D
Well, sure; that's why it's one of the links in the APOD text....
I considered pointing that out earlier, but decided I might have already used up my testiness budget for the day... <g>
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

JEpley

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by JEpley » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:14 pm

"Venusian" is not a word. The correct term is "venereal".

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 16832
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:32 pm

JEpley wrote:"Venusian" is not a word. The correct term is "venereal".
That is incorrect. "Venusian" is certainly a word, and most dictionaries (every dictionary I checked) offer it as either the preferred or the only adjective when referring to the planet Venus. "Venereal" used to be the adjective commonly used, but that usage has largely disappeared, probably because of the more recent association of "venereal" with sexually transmitted diseases.

There is nothing incorrect about using "venereal", but if you do so you may well be misunderstood. I'd suggest the equally correct and more widely understood "venusian", which has the added advantage of symmetry with the adjective used for Mars (martian).
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8398
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by owlice » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:26 pm

Actually, "venereal" is incorrect, though had/had been championed by a few writers, notably Heinlein. The OED lists the adjective venusian as meaning "Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the planet Venus or its supposed inhabitants," and cites usage as early as 1874. (Another definition provided is "Of or pertaining to Venusia, an ancient town in southern Italy, and birthplace of the poet Horace; hence used allusively.") Venerean, with cited usage as early as 1575, is listed as obsolete; the OED has its meaning as "1. Connected or associated with, relating or pertaining to, Venus or her service." Venerian, meaning "1.a. Influenced by, subject to, Venus; inclined to wantonness.," is also listed as obsolete.

Since the APOD caption refers to the planet rather than the goddess, venusian is the correct term. Other sources suggest venereal and venerial are used interchangeably with venusian, but also state that few authors, notably Heinlein, have used the former term(s). (My familiarity with Heinlein makes me suspect his usage of the "classically correct" form was deliberate rather than error on his part; that venusian is the correct word would probably not have been news to him.)
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

User avatar
Case
Commander
Posts: 609
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:08 pm
Location: (52°N, 06°E)

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Case » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:30 pm

JEpley wrote:"Venusian" is not a word. The correct term is "venereal".
Americans have a way of inventing/using new derivative forms, that are unknown in traditional English, to the point where they are entered into dictionaries.
E.g. snuck, past and past participle of sneak
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
:D

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 16832
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:38 pm

owlice wrote:Actually, "venereal" is incorrect, though had/had been championed by a few writers, notably Heinlein. The OED lists the adjective venusian as meaning "Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the planet Venus or its supposed inhabitants," and cites usage as early as 1874. (Another definition provided is "Of or pertaining to Venusia, an ancient town in southern Italy, and birthplace of the poet Horace; hence used allusively.") Venerean, with cited usage as early as 1575, is listed as obsolete; the OED has its meaning as "1. Connected or associated with, relating or pertaining to, Venus or her service." Venerian, meaning "1.a. Influenced by, subject to, Venus; inclined to wantonness.," is also listed as obsolete.
It is not incorrect to use a word generally considered obsolete. There are times to do just that (which demonstrates that in the English language, there are very few rules that define in an absolute sense what is or is not correct).

The best choice of words is determined by intent: if you want to be clearly understood by the most people, "venusian" is the best choice. But that's not to say there might not be a context where "venerean" is a good choice... and it would not be incorrect.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8398
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by owlice » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:57 am

There is no meaning of "venerean" which means "of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the planet Venus." That the term is obsolete was not the point; that it referred to the goddess rather than the planet was. But sure, people can use it to mean whatever the heck they want it to mean; just ask Heinlein. (It'd still be incorrect, though, whether you think so or not. :D )
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

User avatar
Beyond
500 Gigaderps
Posts: 6889
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:09 am
Location: BEYONDER LAND

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Beyond » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:10 am

I think i'd agree with the one with the 'sharp' talons. I don't want to get the points. :no:
To find the Truth, you must go Beyond.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 16832
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:59 am

owlice wrote:There is no meaning of "venerean" which means "of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the planet Venus."
Quite so. Hopefully it is obvious I meant "venereal".
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8398
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by owlice » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:07 am

Chris, I didn't even catch the error! Yes, it was obvious you meant venereal. Still, the point remains: venereal does not refer to "of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the planet Venus," either.
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 18805
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by neufer » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:41 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytherean wrote:
<<Cytherean is an adjective meaning pertaining to Cythera (Greek Κύθηρα, also transliterated Kythera or Kithira) , a small island now part of Greece, southeast of the Peloponnesus. It is also an adjective meaning pertaining to the planet Venus.

When planetary scientists began to have a need to discuss Venus in detail, an adjective was needed. Based on Latin principles, the correct adjectival form of the name would be Venerean. However, this term has an unfortunate similarity to the word venereal as in venereal diseases (related to "Venerean" as martial is to "Martian"), and is not generally used by astronomers. The term Venusian is etymologically messy (similar to saying "Earthian" or "Jupiterian"), and a "cleaner" version was desired.

It was suggested that since Venus had a Greek name, as well as a Roman one, this should be used; however, the adjectival form of Aphrodite was "aphrodisial", which again was felt to be unfortunately close to "aphrodisiac", again evoking matters not directly pertaining to astronomy.

A compromise was reached. In Greek mythology, the goddess Aphrodite was said to have been born from the sea, from which she emerged on a sea shell at the island of Cythera, and as such was sometimes known as Cytherea. The adjective Cytherean was taken from this name and remained popular in scientific literature for some time.

The term has since fallen out of common use. Venusian is the form most frequently used, with others, including Venerean appearing from time to time; the term Cytherean is now mostly found in older scientific papers, but some scientists still stick to the "tasteful" naming. In addition, the word "Cytherean" as an adjective referring to Venus is often found in science fiction of the early and mid 20th century.>>
Art Neuendorffer

User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8398
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by owlice » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:55 pm

neufer wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytherean wrote: Based on Latin principles, the correct adjectival form of the name would be Venerean.
Hence the acknowledgement in the phrase "classically correct" form in my original post about this, but ya know, sometimes the correct Latin adjectival form just doesn't suit.

English: It's messy, but it works. :mrgreen:
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

User avatar
Beyond
500 Gigaderps
Posts: 6889
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:09 am
Location: BEYONDER LAND

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Beyond » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:28 pm

Yaa, inglish is mesi, but it du worc, doughn't it. :eyebrows:
To find the Truth, you must go Beyond.

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 18805
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

The usual Venusians

Post by neufer » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:47 pm

ImageImage
Famous Anneapolitan composter: Arcangelo Spumoni
owlice wrote:
English: It's messy, but it works. :mrgreen:
Like Washingtonians:
Venusians are from Venus
& Venetians are from Venice.

But Williard Scott used to wonder what
folks from Annapolis should be called:
  • 1) Annapolonians?
    2) Anneapolitans?
    3) Annapolitans
Last edited by neufer on Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Art Neuendorffer

User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8398
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by owlice » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:53 pm

Looks like Depression glass under that ice cream.
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

User avatar
Beyond
500 Gigaderps
Posts: 6889
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:09 am
Location: BEYONDER LAND

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Beyond » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:33 pm

owlice wrote:Looks like Depression glass under that ice cream.
Wouldn't you be 'depressed' if you were that close to ice cream and couldn't eat any :no: :?: :( :doh:
To find the Truth, you must go Beyond.

User avatar
Ann
4725 Å
Posts: 12182
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Ann » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 pm

Image
owlice wrote:Looks like Depression glass under that ice cream.
Image
What, Depression "glass"? This "glass" here looks perky enough!


Mmmmm!!! Glass!!!





Ann
Color Commentator

User avatar
geckzilla
Ocular Digitator
Posts: 9172
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:42 pm
Location: Modesto, CA

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by geckzilla » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:00 pm

I love those ice cream studio photo shoots. They're actually all mashed potatoes because the lights and studio environment will make real ice cream melt.
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

User avatar
Beyond
500 Gigaderps
Posts: 6889
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:09 am
Location: BEYONDER LAND

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Beyond » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:59 pm

YUM! Colorful Venusian potatoes. Hey!! Who forgot to pour the hot chockolate er, gravy sauce all over it :?:
To find the Truth, you must go Beyond.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 16832
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:24 pm

owlice wrote:Chris, I didn't even catch the error! Yes, it was obvious you meant venereal. Still, the point remains: venereal does not refer to "of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the planet Venus," either.
According to the OED it does ("of or relating to the planet Venus"). It indicates the usage is obsolete, but that doesn't make it wrong. Nevertheless, for the reasons I gave earlier, I wouldn't use it in discussing Venus outside of some literary context ("the twilight had an air surreal/colored by the light venereal").
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8398
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by owlice » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:32 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
owlice wrote:Chris, I didn't even catch the error! Yes, it was obvious you meant venereal. Still, the point remains: venereal does not refer to "of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the planet Venus," either.
According to the OED it does ("of or relating to the planet Venus"). It indicates the usage is obsolete, but that doesn't make it wrong. Nevertheless, for the reasons I gave earlier, I wouldn't use it in discussing Venus outside of some literary context ("the twilight had an air surreal/colored by the light venereal").
No it doesn't! "Venus or her service" -- you really think that refers to the planet?? :shock:

Where's the falling over smilie? That's the one I need here!

(Chris, you are kidding, yes? Pulling my leg?)
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 16832
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:01 am

owlice wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:According to the OED it does ("of or relating to the planet Venus"). It indicates the usage is obsolete, but that doesn't make it wrong. Nevertheless, for the reasons I gave earlier, I wouldn't use it in discussing Venus outside of some literary context ("the twilight had an air surreal/colored by the light venereal").
No it doesn't! "Venus or her service" -- you really think that refers to the planet?? :shock:

Where's the falling over smilie? That's the one I need here!

(Chris, you are kidding, yes? Pulling my leg?)
I'm not sure I follow. My OED uses exactly the words I previously quoted (which is why I used quotes): "of or relating to the planet Venus". I may be mistaken, but that does sound to me like the planet is what is being referred to. And that is the only definition shown as obsolete- the ones that appear to refer to the goddess do not.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8398
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by owlice » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:20 am

Chris, maybe it's a difference between editions. I thought you were quoting my quote from the OED, which implies (pretty strongly) that venereal relates to the goddess, and says outright that venusian refers to the planet.
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 18805
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: APOD: An Unusual Venusian Oval (2012 Feb 13)

Post by neufer » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:21 am

owlice wrote:
Chris, maybe it's a difference between editions. I thought you were quoting my quote from the OED, which implies (pretty strongly) that venereal relates to the goddess, and says outright that venusian refers to the planet.
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=6615&st=15 wrote:
<<The -al derivations (on the Latin Genitive) correspond to attributes associated with the astrological influence of the planet. Hence we have mercurial, venereal, martial, and jovial, (but saturnine, not saturnal) and we don't have uranal, neptunal, or cereal. (Not with those meanings, anyway.) ;-)

The -an derivations (also from the Latin Genitive) refer to properties of the planet itself, as I said earlier. To argue otherwise, you have to claim that ALL of the adjectives for the planets are "preoccupied" somehow, and this is clearly absurd.>>
--Greg
Art Neuendorffer