APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
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Chris Peterson
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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:02 pm

Starchild wrote:Seems to me that this is something that the smart people at NASA could have foreseen (they knew the planet was covered in fine reddish dust long before any of these 'explorers' landed). A little Swiffer-type mechanism with soft brush used regularly shouldn't have been that hard to make, considering the marvel of the rest of this little machine. For some reason or other, men just don't see or think about dust until it's to the point of ruining things! Poor little "Spirit" could have used the brush and still been motoring around.
Again, the mission was designed for a few months, not a decade. You underestimate what's involved in adding mechanical mechanisms. Not only are they hard to design for an extreme environment, but they introduce reliability problems, millions of dollars in budgeting, and critically, add weight that is arguably better allocated to scientific instruments.
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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by geckzilla » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:03 pm

Give them some credit. Scientists are pretty good at thinking about problematic variables like dust, especially when sending a probe to what could be called a giant ball of dust. There are a lot of other things to take into account. You're not going to be able to consider the entire scope of the project after looking at one image and criticizing it from your computer chair for five minutes.

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Nitpicker » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:26 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:See the Wikipedia article (linked to here in the description under "dusty") “Cleaning Event.”

Bruce
Excellent point Bruce. The dust only builds up because of storms. And the dust only blows off because of storms. This is probably a big part of the reason for the longevity of the mission.

Dustin M.

Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Dustin M. » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:29 pm

Are those servo motors between the solar panels? Can they lift the panels to an angle? I am also wondering if they drive it up to the edge of a high up ledge where the wind coming from from one side is possibly less contaminated with dust that it may accelerate how fast the panels clean off.

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Ron-Astro Pharmacist » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:31 pm

Obviously the ten year old plus technology is still working fine. I’ll bet it’s a blast for those who get to operate and analyze the data. Will it be equipment failure or budget failure that does it in first? Opportunity’s mission has certainly paid off but there will be a time when NASA has to balance the gains versus the continuing costs. None of us want either but one will come sooner or later. :( I hope the budget part is holding up as well as the vehicle itself and that only “dust” devils visit any time soon.
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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:34 pm

Ron-Astro Pharmacist wrote:Obviously the ten year old plus technology is still working fine. I’ll bet it’s a blast for those who get to operate and analyze the data. Will it be equipment failure or budget failure that does it in first? Opportunity’s mission has certainly paid off but there will be a time when NASA has to balance the gains versus the continuing costs. None of us want either but one will come sooner or later. :( I hope the budget part is holding up as well as the vehicle itself and that only “dust” devils visit any time soon.
NASA has a pretty good history of extending mission timelines and budgets as long as the equipment continues to operate. Even marginally operational equipment usually gets a degree of continued support.
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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Dustin M. » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:39 pm

Have they ever considered using a sound method (like using a sound thump) to make 3D sound images of what is below the soil using reflected sound and more than one rover?

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:47 pm

Dustin M. wrote:Have they ever considered using a sound method (like using a sound thump) to make 3D sound images of what is below the soil using reflected sound and more than one rover?
None of the rovers have any sort of sound detection instruments, and none have an actuator capable of producing ground vibrations detectible from hundreds or thousands of kilometers away.
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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Dustin M. » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:56 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Dustin M. wrote:Have they ever considered using a sound method (like using a sound thump) to make 3D sound images of what is below the soil using reflected sound and more than one rover?
None of the rovers have any sort of sound detection instruments, and none have an actuator capable of producing ground vibrations detectible from hundreds or thousands of kilometers away.
No need to be hundreds or thousands of km away. A hand full of small rovers that could communicate between each other to know each others locations and time a medium sized cylinder hitting the ground hard. The rovers could use signal amplification to measure the small thump. There might be other benefits being able to triangulate vibrations from the ground like detection of underground running water (questionable but maybe), storms, earthquakes, ect.

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Nitpicker » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:59 pm

Dustin M. wrote:Have they ever considered using a sound method (like using a sound thump) to make 3D sound images of what is below the soil using reflected sound and more than one rover?
Several probes have used ground penetrating radar, or "sounding" radar. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-base ... ary_radars

(Current Chang'e 3 mission also has GPR capability.)

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by neufer » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:05 pm

Nitpicker wrote:
BDanielMayfield wrote:
See the Wikipedia article (linked to here in the description under "dusty") “Cleaning Event.”
Excellent point Bruce. The dust only builds up because of storms. And the dust only blows off because of storms. This is probably a big part of the reason for the longevity of the mission.
  • Dust build up is constant and unrelated to storms:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=1823 wrote:

Solar-Panel Dust Accumulation and Cleanings 12/5/05

<<Air-fall dust accumulates on the solar panels of NASA's Mars Exploration Rovers, reducing the amount of sunlight reaching the solar arrays. Pre-launch models predicted steady dust accumulation. However, the rovers have been blessed with occasional wind events that clear significant amounts of dust from the solar panels.

:arrow: This graph shows the effects of those panel-cleaning events on the amount of electricity generated by Spirit's solar panels. The horizontal scale is the number of Martian days (sols) after Spirit's Jan. 4, 2005, (Universal Time) landing on Mars. The vertical scale indicates output from the rover's solar panels as a fraction of the amount produced when the clean panels first opened. Note that the gradual declines are interrupted by occasional sharp increases, such as a dust-cleaning event on sol 420.>>
http://athena.cornell.edu/kids/did_you_know.html wrote:

<<A concern at the beginning of the Mars Rover mission was that, as the mission progressed, dust buildup on the solar panels and a weakening sun (due to the onset of winter) would cause the rovers to lose their ability to generate power. But the Opportunity rover is producing nearly as much power as it did when it landed on Mars in January, 2004. As Opportunity explores the slopes of "Endurance Crater," its solar panels are tilted toward the sun. This increases the solar array output by a substantial amount. However, scientists say there are other factors at work that could be allowing the panels to collect even more sunlight. Martian winds may be whisking the dust off the rover and there is the possibility that frost, which settles on the solar panels at night, removes the dust when it evaporates during the day.>>
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Dustin M. » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:08 pm

Nitpicker wrote:
Dustin M. wrote:Have they ever considered using a sound method (like using a sound thump) to make 3D sound images of what is below the soil using reflected sound and more than one rover?
Several probes have used ground penetrating radar, or "sounding" radar. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-base ... ary_radars

(Current Chang'e 3 mission also has GPR capability.)
This is interesting. They are using low frequency light to see underground. It is a bit confusing that they call it sound or (sounding radar) when they are using electromagnetic fields (antenna) but a neat idea. Maybe there is some connection between it and sound but I'm not sure. Thanks for the tip.

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Nitpicker » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:17 pm

neufer wrote:
  • Dust build up is constant and unrelated to storms:
My thinking is that the dust only got into the air in the first place, due in large part to storms.

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by neufer » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:34 pm

Nitpicker wrote:
neufer wrote:
Dust build up is constant and unrelated to storms
My thinking is that the dust only got into the air in the first place, due in large part to storms.
  • Sturm und Drang perhaps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturm_and_Drang wrote:
<<The protagonist in a typical Sturm und Drang stage work, poem, or novel is driven to action—often violent action—not by pursuit of noble means nor by true motives, but by revenge and greed. Goethe's unfinished Prometheus exemplifies this along with the common ambiguity provided by juxtaposing humanistic platitudes with outbursts of irrationality. The literature of Sturm und Drang features an anti-aristocratic slant while seeking to elevate all things humble, natural, or intensely real (especially whatever is painful, tormenting, or frightening).>>
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Nitpicker » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:11 pm

Everything is related, neufer, don't you know?

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by geckzilla » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:00 pm

Don't encourage him.
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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:05 pm

Dustin M. wrote:No need to be hundreds or thousands of km away. A hand full of small rovers that could communicate between each other to know each others locations and time a medium sized cylinder hitting the ground hard.
Well, sure. I assumed you meant with the rovers that are already in place.
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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Ed Belitsky » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:29 pm

Even coat of dust indicates it is clinging through static. Any wiping system would be ineffective. Wash would be impossible on a waterless planet. Only thing that would work is some kind of a static cling eliminator. Get the laundry detergent people to help.

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by SaraBiga » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:27 pm

Hell, in 10 years it would have collected way more dust if it were standing in my living room! :wink:

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Beyond » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:36 pm

Mine too!! :oops: :lol2:
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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Boomer12k » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:56 pm

Go little Rover!!!

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by neufer » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:17 am


Nitpicker wrote:
The dust only builds up because of storms.
And the dust only blows off because of storms.
We know for a fact that dust devils are primarily responsible for cleaning the dust off the solar panels. Dust devils, thermals, surface wind shear and other forms of dynamic turbulence are mostly responsible for filling the planetary boundary layer with the dust that "rains down" on the solar panels. It is rather sloppy to simply attribute all this to "storms."
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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Boomer12k » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:04 am

I don't think I would work as well with all that dust on me...I sneeze too much...

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by Nitpicker » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:05 am

neufer wrote:
Nitpicker wrote:
The dust only builds up because of storms.
And the dust only blows off because of storms.
We know for a fact that dust devils are primarily responsible for cleaning the dust off the solar panels. Dust devils, thermals, surface wind shear and other forms of dynamic turbulence are mostly responsible for filling the planetary boundary layer with the dust that "rains down" on the solar panels. It is rather sloppy to simply attribute all this to "storms."
Indeed. Similarly, there is a sloppy aspect to your statement:
neufer wrote:Dust build up is constant and unrelated to storms
And I did attempt to refine my initial sloppiness shortly afterwards with:
Nitpicker wrote:My thinking is that the dust only got into the air in the first place, due in large part to storms.
But thank you for painting a fuller picture of Martian weather for me.

Yours in slop,
Nitpicker.

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Re: APOD: Opportunity's Decade on Mars (2014 Jan 25)

Post by DavidLeodis » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:59 pm

Spirit Rover was an amazing performer and Opportunity Rover still is. I wonder if Spirit has 'died' or could it yet be 'revived' somehow?

As for the dust I wonder if a vacuum cleaner will work on Mars?

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