Voynich manuscript discussion: 2005 January 22

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
Steve Solon

Vornich Manuscript

Post by Steve Solon » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:58 pm

The representation of the sun in the center is indicative of early face drawings by oriental artists. The text surrounding the circle doesn't appear Asian in nature -- a confusement.

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:22 pm

Most curious.!? beats me.! I was though, servfing this morning, and came across some interesting historical sites,if your into that sort of thing!!
http://www.livius.org Babylonion jewish gezer cal
http://www.cba.ufl.edu
http://www.kidsites.com 1492
http://www.ibiblio.org mexician cal
http://penelope.uchicago.ed
codex 361 cassinensis frontin?

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:29 pm

I know! I know! It is the journal of a time/space traveler. It is written in the language of the world he visited and the drawings are his observations of that world.

dictostelium
Asternaut
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:38 pm
Location: Norwich UK

voynich "sun"

Post by dictostelium » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:32 pm

The sun in the middle also has crescents like moons - but the lunar (annual) calendar has 13 months, and this is clearly 12/24... So it looks astronomical/astrrological/alchemical, which topics were all the same thing at the probable time of writing

Funny that we now know that a bodyclock protein flips 60x per day... making an interesting fit to the traditional 60-60-24 division of the day and an even more interesting fit to the 12 meridian/5 element daily cycle in traditional chinese medicine

Think of 1421 - the year that China discovered the world... If a European learnt Chinese and some Chinese culture related to herbal/alchemical lore and then transcribed it phonetically, the end result might be similar to this... not unreasonable in terms of dates (but perhaps unreasonable in terms of the closed nature of Chinese culture at that time).

So the 24-division Sun/moon clock could be a translation of eastern traditions back into the western alchemical tradition. Has anyone checked the illustrations against a TCM herbal?

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:41 pm

i believe Leo Levitov's solution is right, that it's a manual for the cult of Isis, the Endura Rite of the Cathari Heresy.

Henni

Post by Henni » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:46 pm

Well I'm not a scientist, but when I saw this I immediatly thought that it must be somehow Asian.
I don't know how old the Tibetian flag is, but it has somehow the same thing in it. (A sun with red and blue rays)

moodman

Forensics?

Post by moodman » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:53 pm

Has anyone actually done a test on the paper and ink used in this? This would be very helpful in determining a whole host of things, such as the fibers in the paper showing where the pulp came from, or, if done on some other medium, the physical clues would go a long way towards determination of its physical origin.

We seem to be looking at the document itself for internal proofs, when, if in fact it is a hoax, we will be chasing out own tails.

skeitre

riddle solved

Post by skeitre » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:15 pm

It's obvious to me, after a quick read, that it predicts the victory of the Steelers over the Eagles on Feb 6, 2005.
What's all the hubbub?

RMark

Post by RMark » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:22 pm

I believe that the face is actually the moon. The radiance around the moon may be corona from a solar eclips. The twelve blades of the corona represent the months of the year. The division of the blades into twenty four may represent the transformation of the moon across the sky. I believe the “(“ and “)” on either side of the face re-enforce representation of the moon.

val

Post by val » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:25 pm

A hoax seems the likliest explanation, but it occurred to me that it might be the work of a native of the Americas from a culture without a written script to create one and convey (or to diary for himself?) information (obviously garbled) about Europe - plants, astronomy, general knowledge and anthropological style data. Imagine - and this is pure fantasy - a survivor of Machu Pichu ending up in central Europe (a whole trilogy could be written about how that occurred) and then writing this document. A kind of reverse explanatory text in his own language and in an invented, quasi-European script. Instead of a text trying to explain Native American ideas to Europeans, he's trying to explain Europe to himself and/or others.
Chinese/Tibetan language structural similarities were mentioned. Has any similar analysis been made of Quechua, or another (non-Maya, since they had wriing) language?
Kind of a cool story concept, anyway?

Boldra
Ensign
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:36 am
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Contact:

A lot of theories, but not a lot of reading.

Post by Boldra » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:28 pm

I hadn't heard of the Voynich until this week, but before taking part in the disucssion I actually clicked and read all the links on the APOD page* as well as all of the previous posts. If only some others would do this too!

First, I'd like to respond to some other posts:

MillionthMonkey: "There are obviously multiple authors."

What leads you to this conclusion? Why do you disagree with the Wikipedia entry on this?

Raven: "identify the plants"

See the Wikipedia entry. The plants appear to be chimeras.

Linda: "the ancient Celtic language of the Cornish"

My grandmother spoke Cornish. It's not a dead language, so I'm sure it's been compared to Voynichese.

Aries: "put this up to a mirror"

I tried it, it still looks like gibberish. I'm fairly familiar with european languages. Apparently a team at Beijing university has also examined it.

qp: "compared to the so called "sorcerrershat""

Can you provide a link to this hat? Perhaps you could search the mail archives: http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~stolfi/voyni ... vmail.html

dubious: "each letter is..."

Substitution cyphers were tried by the NSA guys in the 50s. See the wikipedia

dubious: "make words in some language"

See the sciam article linked above (qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy)

Althrob: "work of a tween"

Wouldn't we see the penmanship actually improving? Also, I wouldn't expect the strict structure (botanical, astronomical, alchemical), and I would expect the naked girls to be throughout the text and followed by suddent changes in style (if you know what I'm saying).

murfsurf: "you should fold the picture"

A MAD reader? Can you show us your folds?

I apologise if my reponses seem abrubt, but since most of the people I'm responding to don't appear to bother to read what other people have written, I guess they won't be offended.
--
I'm now going to try to download the mail list archives and find out if there was any carbon dating on this, as it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere else. I suspect that carbon dating wasn't used, as it tends to date things with too little accuracy (+/- 30 years according to wikipedia), or that the chemicals added by voynich have destroyed the possibility.

* ok, not all. I didn't read the page in Japanese or the entire archive of the mailing list.

Boldra

mechanika

The female forms

Post by mechanika » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:28 pm

Textual issues aside: in looking at the women depicted (specifically series 72 and 73), they appear to be in varying states of menses and pregnancy. Knowing the affinity that societies of earlier time periods had for using the calendar to make sense of the world around them, might this part not only be a calendar, but some sort of tracking guide for the (presumably male) author of the tome, regarding a female, or females in general? Bearing in mind that males historically prior to the late 20th century found women's biology to be mysterious and unnerving, obviously the states portrayed wouldn't necessarily be accurate, but this theory is one possibility.

~ Wendy of the "Ancient Little Black Book" theory

Markus C. Kühne

This reminds me of something

Post by Markus C. Kühne » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:31 pm

At the time, this manuscipt seems to originate from, encrypting was a most common necessity and practise. The manuscript itself reminds me of some texts and drawings I saw in a french book about the templars. I assume, that there are people in France who might be capable of decrypting this book due to their knowledge of the templarian codes.
I hope to have been of help with this suggestion. Although I am afraid that it will be difficult to find someone willing to help, since even today the wisdom of the templars is considered a strickt secret. Perhaps it is not at all wanted that the content of this book becomes known in the public?
Good luck
Markus C. Kühne

Emperor's Secret Agent

Hail Emperor Rudolph II and his manuscript?

Post by Emperor's Secret Agent » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:34 pm

Perhaps not a ransacked Manuscript dating from the 15th century but perhaps a collection of his majesty Rudolph II's own hand spanning the most reclusive and insane, eccentric years of his life?? E.G., this manuscript was in his Library? Perhaps Rudolph's outlet for his fantasies of being the mighty scientist and discoverer he never was... exploiting a self-fabricated language to hide the lack of details in his thoughts and descriptions?? The diary of a mad, unmarried emperor?

"Rudolph was a clever and cultured man, greatly interested in chemistry, alchemy, astronomy and astrology; he was a patron of Tycho Brahe and Kepler, and was himself something of a scholar and an artist. He was the greatest collector of his age, his agents ransacking Europe to fill his museums with rare works of art. His education at the Spanish court and an hereditary tendency to insanity, however, made him haughty, suspicious %and consequently very unpopular, while even in his best days the temper of his mind was that of a recluse rather than of a ruler."

p.s. those 'naked chicks' look to be enjoying mass quantities of Hungarian wine perhaps.. did Roman Emperor Rudolph II take of the drink?

Oakley (Gardener)

Planting Guide

Post by Oakley (Gardener) » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:57 pm

First glance tells me this is a 12 month horticultural planting guide.

brooks

APOD 1.22.05

Post by brooks » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:59 pm

I noticed the repeat of the double star. Could it be referring to gemini? Perhaps that's the starting point for interpting the remaining symbols. The "riddle" may not be sun centered but gemini centered. Good luck. I'll look for reponses. :?:

dafydd
Asternaut
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:06 pm
Location: SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: It's an old hoax...

Post by dafydd » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:08 pm

Bruck wrote:Unfortunately, I strongly suspect that this "manuscript" is but an old hoax. We tend to consider ancient manuscripts as harboring inscrutible wisdom, but hoaxes are as ancient as anything ... e.g., see this artice from Scientific American:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID ... 414B7F0000
Thanks. I figured someone would mention this before I got here. This article is a big hurdle to overcome for anyone who wants to assert a meaning to this document.
dafydd

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising liberty and justice for all. -- Barry Gold

pyromethious

visually inaccurate

Post by pyromethious » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:27 pm

I spent the last five minutes staring at this seemingly familiar piece and it feels.....backwards. It's as if it is a mirror reflection of itself. I also agree with the Asian dialect comment. Although it looks more like something found in an old monestary. Perhaps one could use a crossreference of these ideas and let me know.

pyromethious@aol.com

wfahber

Voynich manuscript discussion: 2005 January 22

Post by wfahber » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:53 pm

Just a few obvious observations which I haven't heard anybody else mention before. The text is left justified and has an alphabet. This tells me that somebody in Europe without much imagination wrote it.

And the timing: Christopher Columbus had just recently discovered half a planet, complete with its own alien life forms, and an intelligent race with its own culture, language and science. Add to this a European con artist trying to pass off a phony book as a science textbook written by the occupants of this other half-planet in their own language. Maybe he could sell it for some big bucks like the people who tried to sell phony smuggled or stolen moon rocks during the Apollo space program.

ZenWarrior
Asternaut
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:07 pm
Contact:

Post by ZenWarrior » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:58 pm

Responding to various points...

The S.A. article is clearly far from definitive or convincing. Given the techniques employed are far from "hard science," it is hardly any less conjecture than assertions that the manuscript does contain something meaningful and is not a hoax. Note, however, meaningful does not imply importance--only substance.

A da Vinci influence to employ a reversal of writing cannot be entirely dismissed. There are indications--format and symbols--the author may have been familiar with da Vinci's "Anatomy."

It is now fairly commonly thought that some or even much of the "text" within the manuscript may well be filler, added to render the bona fide text and meaning of the document more difficult to decipher.

Agreed. That the manuscript was in fact nothing more than a ruse to exact monies is not to be entirely dismissed.

The majority of evidence does indicate the manuscript's date of origin is somewhere around the 15th or 16th century, and doubtfully any earlier.

Given the origin of the manuscript may be southern Italy, an Arabic influence cannot be dismissed.

Native American influences can be pretty much dismissed.

A European origin is accepted as valid by a majority of scholars.

However, it is interesting that someone notes a possible Oriental influence. That fits with the manuscript's possible Italian origin and that the Silk Road had become a trade route a good 200 years or more prior to its origin. (That also again allows for an Arabic/Persian influence.)

(And I see we have attracted the usual number of internet forum sans-brainers.)

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:05 pm

Discoveries After Prince Henry
Although Afonso V was not particularly interested in overseas exploration, more than 2000 miles of unknown coastline were mapped during the middle years of his reign. On the death of Prince Henry, Afonso confirmed his brother Fernão, who was Prince Henry's chief heir, in jurisdiction over Madeira, Porto Santo and the Azores. In 1462 he granted him the Cape Verde Islands.
Pêro de Sintra made a voyage in 1462 which took him beyond Sierra Leone. Although this was the last voyage of exploration for some years, trade with the Guinea coast continued unabated.
In 1469 Afonso granted a monopoly in the West Guinea trade to Fernão Gomes, a wealthy citizen of Lisbon. Gomes would discover a further 100 leagues per year for five years, and would share in the profits with the crown. Afonso V

PQI p. 122-
Five years later, in 1474, Afonso granted the monopoly to his son, João (later João II). João protected settlements by building Fort Elmina in the heart of the Gold Coast, and supported land expeditions into the interior. He set up a commission headed by two learned Jews, Abraham Zacuto in 1492, and Joseph Vizinho, his disciple, who had already come to Portugal in 1482. (Vizinho had in 1485 gone on an expedition to try their method of determining latitude). Joao II

Boorstin p.168...
Afonso and João were interested in the possibilities of proceeding westward to India. Afonso kept giving shipmasters charters to discover the mythical islands that appeared in the Atlantic on the maps of the time. Since the marriage of a Lancastrian princess into the Scandinavian royal family there had been intermittent relations between the Portuguese and Danish courts. Rumours filtered back of lands to the west beyond Iceland, and Afonso made enquiries via his ambassador about a north-west passage to India. There was also a story going around that two Portuguese seamen, sailing under Danish auspices, had reached a "land of the codfish" beyond Greenland. TPS p.139
Towards the end of his life, Prince Henry had received a map from his uncle King Eric of Denmark. Drawn in 1427 by Claudius Clavus, this map of Northern Europe set Henry thinking about a north-west expedition. In 1473 a large Luso-Norwegian expedition was launched from Iceland. It was suggested that João Corte Real took part in this (he was rewarded by the King of Portugal with the post of Governer of Terceira in the Azores for having discovered 'stockfish land' (almost certainly Newfoundland). In 1500 Corte Real's sons Gaspar and Miguel (acquaintances of Columbus) made a particular effort to explore these northern regions of America, and disappeared in Newfoundland in 1502. CbM p.290...

Portuguese Discoveries in North America
In 1474, Afonso instructed his close councillor Fernão Martins, a canon of Lisbon cathedral, to consult Toscanelli about the best sailing route to India. In Portugal there were two schools of thought - either to carry on around Africa, or to seek a western route. In Toscanelli's letter in reply (of which the only surviving copy was found in Columbus' library) he reminds Martins that he told him at an earlier conference in Florence that a westward route would be quicker. According to the map that Toscanelli included, India is just beyond the western horizon. TPS p.139
Shortly after this, exploration was interrupted by war with Castile, which lasted until 1479. Afonso died shortly thereafter and was succeeded by João II in 1481. João's first business was to restore Portuguese sovereignty on the Guinea coast, and he dispatched a fleet under Fernão Gomes who attacked a foreign fleet anchored off the trading post of Mina. TPS p.144
João decided that Mina needed to be fortified and sent a fleet commanded by Bartolomeu Dias and João Afonso de Aveiro with the new governor for Mina, D. Diogo de Azambuja, to build a warehouse in the form of a castle and a church. TPS p.145
For his next explorations, João sent a young commoner named Diogo Cão with an assortment of stone pillars surmounted by the cross of the Order of Christ and carved with the royal arms to mark the capes he should discover. Cão travelled to the mouth of the Congo, where he set up a pillar, left four messengers to search for a great king he heard about and took four natives back to Portugal. In Lisbon, King João knighted Cão and sent him back to find the messengers, who had established friendly relations with the Congolese. He then proceeded south to Cape Cross, where he died. TPS p.147
In 1481, King João sent a fleet with Diogo Cão, which founded Fort Elmina, and sailed down to Cape Santa Maria. In 1485-86 Diogo Cão made a second expedition to Cape Cross.
In 1485 two islanders, one from Terceira in the Azores, a Fleming whose name, in Portuguese, was Fernão Dulmo, and the other from Madeira, obtained a license to seek out the island of Antilia. They sailed west from Terceira, but it seems they were driven back by the prevailing westerlies and returned without sighting land. TPS p.149
Under King João II's guidance, Bartolomeu Dias reached the mouth of the Congo in 1480-84. In 1487, King João sent an overland expedition to find Prester John. The two men in the expedition were Pâro da Covilhã and Afonso de Paiva. Covilhã reached Ethiopia after travelling over Arabia and India. Boorstin p.168...
There he met the 'Prester John', named Eskander, who received letters from King João with pleasure. However, Eskander soon died, and his brother Nahum refused to let Covilhã leave, and he was there thirty years later when a second Portuguese expedition to Ethiopia arrived. TPS p.156
Late in the summer of 1487, Bartolomeu Dias set sail from Lisbon. King João still believed that if his ships proceeded far enough around Africa they would find the realm of Prester John, and so six Negroes emissaries, four of them women, were sent with Dias to broadcast the Portuguese interest in meeting the fabled Priest-king. They proceeded directly to one of Cão's last anchorages, and then followed the coast south, until they were swept out to sea in a storm. Eventually they found that they had rounded the Cape of Good Hope, and landed in Mossel Bay, which Dias' men called the Bahia dos Vaqueiros. They returned to Lisbon, arriving in December 1488. TPS p.149

Columbus
Columbus, whose voyage to America began in 1492, lived in Portugal from 1476 to 1484. He travelled to Iceland, Madeira, and the Guinea coast
Columbus married Philippa Moniz, the daughter of Bartolomeu Perestrello, one of Henry's favourite captains and the first governer of Porto Santo. SEM p.23...
Columbus spent some time living in Porto Santo, and examining Perestrello's papers and charts. (Baigent and Leigh suggest that Columbus' father in law was a Master of the Knights of Christ, and that Columbus had access to his papers). SEM p.23...
TaL
Columbus tried to persuade King João II in 1484 to fund his voyage of discovery and was present when Dias returned from rounding Africa in 1488. According to Morris, João sent out his own expedition, which failed. In any case, João didn't support Columbus, who then left for Spain to try his luck with Ferdinand and Isabella. Boorstin p.168...
Morris

After Columbus
The next step in the discoveries was delayed by domestic problems and by Columbus's discovery of America in 1492. In 1495 King Manuel I acceded, and set up a scheme to follow Dias's discoveries. Vasco da Gama, a member of the Order of Christ (c.1460-1524) sailed in 1497 and arrived in Calicut, returning to Lisbon in 1499. He set out again in 1502 to make Calicut a colony. By 1510 the Portuguese presence was secure in the Indian Ocean. Manuel

Boorstin p.168...


Vasco da Gama wearing the cross of the Order of Christ.
Maritime Museum, Lisbon.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About Prince Henry

dandelion
Asternaut
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:28 pm

Voynich Manuscript/Calendar

Post by dandelion » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:17 pm

When I first saw the page in question I dashed to my bookshelf. I had seen something very similar in "Illuminated Manuscripts of Medieval Spain" By Mireille Mentré. This page looks very much like the Calendar Pages from the "Antiphonal, León Cathedral, 8 Fol. 10v and 19v., 10th-11th century"

From Mentré's Book: Antiphonal, León Cathedral, 8, fol. 10v."Calendar. Mozarabic manuscripts frequently present their contents in the form of synoptic tables or diagrams. Here for example, the calendar in the León Antiphonal creates a synthesis of the phases of the liturgical year."

León v10 contains 5 circles, simliar to the ones seen on the Voynich page.
The inner circle (red and blue parts) of the Voynich contains 12 sections cut into 24 as they radiate outwards. On the León there are 2 circles broken up into 24 "slices", 2 circles broken up into 25 "Slices"and the 5th circle broken up into 12 "slices." the first 4 have writing around the edge like the Voynich, and all of them are drawn like flowers with the sections like flower petals and the centers are yellow/yellow with decoration. The Main colors of both Voyich and León are Red and Blue with yellow accents.

León v19 in one large circle broken up much like a fan genealogy chart. There are circles smaller to larger, each circle containing more and more sections as you get closer to the edge. I only have a small black and while picture of it... so no colors to compare. Since the picture is much smaller it is more difficult to determine it's likeness to the Voynich page, but it is far more complex in content and style.

In addition to the standard scripts in León, on v10 there is another kind of curious writing off to one side. I think this is mozarabic writing, though I can't read it, it is of that syle. On other folios of León there are other "mozarabic"writings that are smiliar to that found on v10, but are much stronger and harsher in the manner of the lines. This is where I find that it differes from Voynich. Th Voynich page script is very loopy and fluid.

So I my opinion it is definately a Calendar. Age undeterminded.

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:36 pm

Discoveries After Prince Henry
Although Afonso V was not particularly interested in overseas exploration, more than 2000 miles of unknown coastline were mapped during the middle years of his reign. On the death of Prince Henry, Afonso confirmed his brother Fernão, who was Prince Henry's chief heir, in jurisdiction over Madeira, Porto Santo and the Azores. In 1462 he granted him the Cape Verde Islands.
Pêro de Sintra made a voyage in 1462 which took him beyond Sierra Leone. Although this was the last voyage of exploration for some years, trade with the Guinea coast continued unabated.
In 1469 Afonso granted a monopoly in the West Guinea trade to Fernão Gomes, a wealthy citizen of Lisbon. Gomes would discover a further 100 leagues per year for five years, and would share in the profits with the crown. Afonso V

PQI p. 122-
Five years later, in 1474, Afonso granted the monopoly to his son, João (later João II). João protected settlements by building Fort Elmina in the heart of the Gold Coast, and supported land expeditions into the interior. He set up a commission headed by two learned Jews, Abraham Zacuto in 1492, and Joseph Vizinho, his disciple, who had already come to Portugal in 1482. (Vizinho had in 1485 gone on an expedition to try their method of determining latitude). Joao II

Boorstin p.168...
Afonso and João were interested in the possibilities of proceeding westward to India. Afonso kept giving shipmasters charters to discover the mythical islands that appeared in the Atlantic on the maps of the time. Since the marriage of a Lancastrian princess into the Scandinavian royal family there had been intermittent relations between the Portuguese and Danish courts. Rumours filtered back of lands to the west beyond Iceland, and Afonso made enquiries via his ambassador about a north-west passage to India. There was also a story going around that two Portuguese seamen, sailing under Danish auspices, had reached a "land of the codfish" beyond Greenland. TPS p.139
Towards the end of his life, Prince Henry had received a map from his uncle King Eric of Denmark. Drawn in 1427 by Claudius Clavus, this map of Northern Europe set Henry thinking about a north-west expedition. In 1473 a large Luso-Norwegian expedition was launched from Iceland. It was suggested that João Corte Real took part in this (he was rewarded by the King of Portugal with the post of Governer of Terceira in the Azores for having discovered 'stockfish land' (almost certainly Newfoundland). In 1500 Corte Real's sons Gaspar and Miguel (acquaintances of Columbus) made a particular effort to explore these northern regions of America, and disappeared in Newfoundland in 1502. CbM p.290...

Portuguese Discoveries in North America
In 1474, Afonso instructed his close councillor Fernão Martins, a canon of Lisbon cathedral, to consult Toscanelli about the best sailing route to India. In Portugal there were two schools of thought - either to carry on around Africa, or to seek a western route. In Toscanelli's letter in reply (of which the only surviving copy was found in Columbus' library) he reminds Martins that he told him at an earlier conference in Florence that a westward route would be quicker. According to the map that Toscanelli included, India is just beyond the western horizon. TPS p.139
Shortly after this, exploration was interrupted by war with Castile, which lasted until 1479. Afonso died shortly thereafter and was succeeded by João II in 1481. João's first business was to restore Portuguese sovereignty on the Guinea coast, and he dispatched a fleet under Fernão Gomes who attacked a foreign fleet anchored off the trading post of Mina. TPS p.144
João decided that Mina needed to be fortified and sent a fleet commanded by Bartolomeu Dias and João Afonso de Aveiro with the new governor for Mina, D. Diogo de Azambuja, to build a warehouse in the form of a castle and a church. TPS p.145
For his next explorations, João sent a young commoner named Diogo Cão with an assortment of stone pillars surmounted by the cross of the Order of Christ and carved with the royal arms to mark the capes he should discover. Cão travelled to the mouth of the Congo, where he set up a pillar, left four messengers to search for a great king he heard about and took four natives back to Portugal. In Lisbon, King João knighted Cão and sent him back to find the messengers, who had established friendly relations with the Congolese. He then proceeded south to Cape Cross, where he died. TPS p.147
In 1481, King João sent a fleet with Diogo Cão, which founded Fort Elmina, and sailed down to Cape Santa Maria. In 1485-86 Diogo Cão made a second expedition to Cape Cross.
In 1485 two islanders, one from Terceira in the Azores, a Fleming whose name, in Portuguese, was Fernão Dulmo, and the other from Madeira, obtained a license to seek out the island of Antilia. They sailed west from Terceira, but it seems they were driven back by the prevailing westerlies and returned without sighting land. TPS p.149
Under King João II's guidance, Bartolomeu Dias reached the mouth of the Congo in 1480-84. In 1487, King João sent an overland expedition to find Prester John. The two men in the expedition were Pâro da Covilhã and Afonso de Paiva. Covilhã reached Ethiopia after travelling over Arabia and India. Boorstin p.168...
There he met the 'Prester John', named Eskander, who received letters from King João with pleasure. However, Eskander soon died, and his brother Nahum refused to let Covilhã leave, and he was there thirty years later when a second Portuguese expedition to Ethiopia arrived. TPS p.156
Late in the summer of 1487, Bartolomeu Dias set sail from Lisbon. King João still believed that if his ships proceeded far enough around Africa they would find the realm of Prester John, and so six Negroes emissaries, four of them women, were sent with Dias to broadcast the Portuguese interest in meeting the fabled Priest-king. They proceeded directly to one of Cão's last anchorages, and then followed the coast south, until they were swept out to sea in a storm. Eventually they found that they had rounded the Cape of Good Hope, and landed in Mossel Bay, which Dias' men called the Bahia dos Vaqueiros. They returned to Lisbon, arriving in December 1488. TPS p.149

Columbus
Columbus, whose voyage to America began in 1492, lived in Portugal from 1476 to 1484. He travelled to Iceland, Madeira, and the Guinea coast
Columbus married Philippa Moniz, the daughter of Bartolomeu Perestrello, one of Henry's favourite captains and the first governer of Porto Santo. SEM p.23...
Columbus spent some time living in Porto Santo, and examining Perestrello's papers and charts. (Baigent and Leigh suggest that Columbus' father in law was a Master of the Knights of Christ, and that Columbus had access to his papers). SEM p.23...
TaL
Columbus tried to persuade King João II in 1484 to fund his voyage of discovery and was present when Dias returned from rounding Africa in 1488. According to Morris, João sent out his own expedition, which failed. In any case, João didn't support Columbus, who then left for Spain to try his luck with Ferdinand and Isabella. Boorstin p.168...
Morris

After Columbus
The next step in the discoveries was delayed by domestic problems and by Columbus's discovery of America in 1492. In 1495 King Manuel I acceded, and set up a scheme to follow Dias's discoveries. Vasco da Gama, a member of the Order of Christ (c.1460-1524) sailed in 1497 and arrived in Calicut, returning to Lisbon in 1499. He set out again in 1502 to make Calicut a colony. By 1510 the Portuguese presence was secure in the Indian Ocean. Manuel

Boorstin p.168...


Vasco da Gama wearing the cross of the Order of Christ.
Maritime Museum, Lisbon.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About Prince Henry
Discoveries After Prince Henry
Although Afonso V was not particularly interested in overseas exploration, more than 2000 miles of unknown coastline were mapped during the middle years of his reign. On the death of Prince Henry, Afonso confirmed his brother Fernão, who was Prince Henry's chief heir, in jurisdiction over Madeira, Porto Santo and the Azores. In 1462 he granted him the Cape Verde Islands.
Pêro de Sintra made a voyage in 1462 which took him beyond Sierra Leone. Although this was the last voyage of exploration for some years, trade with the Guinea coast continued unabated.
In 1469 Afonso granted a monopoly in the West Guinea trade to Fernão Gomes, a wealthy citizen of Lisbon. Gomes would discover a further 100 leagues per year for five years, and would share in the profits with the crown. Afonso V

PQI p. 122-
Five years later, in 1474, Afonso granted the monopoly to his son, João (later João II). João protected settlements by building Fort Elmina in the heart of the Gold Coast, and supported land expeditions into the interior. He set up a commission headed by two learned Jews, Abraham Zacuto in 1492, and Joseph Vizinho, his disciple, who had already come to Portugal in 1482. (Vizinho had in 1485 gone on an expedition to try their method of determining latitude). Joao II

Boorstin p.168...
Afonso and João were interested in the possibilities of proceeding westward to India. Afonso kept giving shipmasters charters to discover the mythical islands that appeared in the Atlantic on the maps of the time. Since the marriage of a Lancastrian princess into the Scandinavian royal family there had been intermittent relations between the Portuguese and Danish courts. Rumours filtered back of lands to the west beyond Iceland, and Afonso made enquiries via his ambassador about a north-west passage to India. There was also a story going around that two Portuguese seamen, sailing under Danish auspices, had reached a "land of the codfish" beyond Greenland. TPS p.139
Towards the end of his life, Prince Henry had received a map from his uncle King Eric of Denmark. Drawn in 1427 by Claudius Clavus, this map of Northern Europe set Henry thinking about a north-west expedition. In 1473 a large Luso-Norwegian expedition was launched from Iceland. It was suggested that João Corte Real took part in this (he was rewarded by the King of Portugal with the post of Governer of Terceira in the Azores for having discovered 'stockfish land' (almost certainly Newfoundland). In 1500 Corte Real's sons Gaspar and Miguel (acquaintances of Columbus) made a particular effort to explore these northern regions of America, and disappeared in Newfoundland in 1502. CbM p.290...

Portuguese Discoveries in North America
In 1474, Afonso instructed his close councillor Fernão Martins, a canon of Lisbon cathedral, to consult Toscanelli about the best sailing route to India. In Portugal there were two schools of thought - either to carry on around Africa, or to seek a western route. In Toscanelli's letter in reply (of which the only surviving copy was found in Columbus' library) he reminds Martins that he told him at an earlier conference in Florence that a westward route would be quicker. According to the map that Toscanelli included, India is just beyond the western horizon. TPS p.139
Shortly after this, exploration was interrupted by war with Castile, which lasted until 1479. Afonso died shortly thereafter and was succeeded by João II in 1481. João's first business was to restore Portuguese sovereignty on the Guinea coast, and he dispatched a fleet under Fernão Gomes who attacked a foreign fleet anchored off the trading post of Mina. TPS p.144
João decided that Mina needed to be fortified and sent a fleet commanded by Bartolomeu Dias and João Afonso de Aveiro with the new governor for Mina, D. Diogo de Azambuja, to build a warehouse in the form of a castle and a church. TPS p.145
For his next explorations, João sent a young commoner named Diogo Cão with an assortment of stone pillars surmounted by the cross of the Order of Christ and carved with the royal arms to mark the capes he should discover. Cão travelled to the mouth of the Congo, where he set up a pillar, left four messengers to search for a great king he heard about and took four natives back to Portugal. In Lisbon, King João knighted Cão and sent him back to find the messengers, who had established friendly relations with the Congolese. He then proceeded south to Cape Cross, where he died. TPS p.147
In 1481, King João sent a fleet with Diogo Cão, which founded Fort Elmina, and sailed down to Cape Santa Maria. In 1485-86 Diogo Cão made a second expedition to Cape Cross.
In 1485 two islanders, one from Terceira in the Azores, a Fleming whose name, in Portuguese, was Fernão Dulmo, and the other from Madeira, obtained a license to seek out the island of Antilia. They sailed west from Terceira, but it seems they were driven back by the prevailing westerlies and returned without sighting land. TPS p.149
Under King João II's guidance, Bartolomeu Dias reached the mouth of the Congo in 1480-84. In 1487, King João sent an overland expedition to find Prester John. The two men in the expedition were Pâro da Covilhã and Afonso de Paiva. Covilhã reached Ethiopia after travelling over Arabia and India. Boorstin p.168...
There he met the 'Prester John', named Eskander, who received letters from King João with pleasure. However, Eskander soon died, and his brother Nahum refused to let Covilhã leave, and he was there thirty years later when a second Portuguese expedition to Ethiopia arrived. TPS p.156
Late in the summer of 1487, Bartolomeu Dias set sail from Lisbon. King João still believed that if his ships proceeded far enough around Africa they would find the realm of Prester John, and so six Negroes emissaries, four of them women, were sent with Dias to broadcast the Portuguese interest in meeting the fabled Priest-king. They proceeded directly to one of Cão's last anchorages, and then followed the coast south, until they were swept out to sea in a storm. Eventually they found that they had rounded the Cape of Good Hope, and landed in Mossel Bay, which Dias' men called the Bahia dos Vaqueiros. They returned to Lisbon, arriving in December 1488. TPS p.149

Columbus
Columbus, whose voyage to America began in 1492, lived in Portugal from 1476 to 1484. He travelled to Iceland, Madeira, and the Guinea coast
Columbus married Philippa Moniz, the daughter of Bartolomeu Perestrello, one of Henry's favourite captains and the first governer of Porto Santo. SEM p.23...
Columbus spent some time living in Porto Santo, and examining Perestrello's papers and charts. (Baigent and Leigh suggest that Columbus' father in law was a Master of the Knights of Christ, and that Columbus had access to his papers). SEM p.23...
TaL
Columbus tried to persuade King João II in 1484 to fund his voyage of discovery and was present when Dias returned from rounding Africa in 1488. According to Morris, João sent out his own expedition, which failed. In any case, João didn't support Columbus, who then left for Spain to try his luck with Ferdinand and Isabella. Boorstin p.168...
Morris

After Columbus
The next step in the discoveries was delayed by domestic problems and by Columbus's discovery of America in 1492. In 1495 King Manuel I acceded, and set up a scheme to follow Dias's discoveries. Vasco da Gama, a member of the Order of Christ (c.1460-1524) sailed in 1497 and arrived in Calicut, returning to Lisbon in 1499. He set out again in 1502 to make Calicut a colony. By 1510 the Portuguese presence was secure in the Indian Ocean. Manuel

Boorstin p.168...


Vasco da Gama wearing the cross of the Order of Christ.
Maritime Museum, Lisbon.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About Prince Henry
Discoveries After Prince Henry
Although Afonso V was not particularly interested in overseas exploration, more than 2000 miles of unknown coastline were mapped during the middle years of his reign. On the death of Prince Henry, Afonso confirmed his brother Fernão, who was Prince Henry's chief heir, in jurisdiction over Madeira, Porto Santo and the Azores. In 1462 he granted him the Cape Verde Islands.
Pêro de Sintra made a voyage in 1462 which took him beyond Sierra Leone. Although this was the last voyage of exploration for some years, trade with the Guinea coast continued unabated.
In 1469 Afonso granted a monopoly in the West Guinea trade to Fernão Gomes, a wealthy citizen of Lisbon. Gomes would discover a further 100 leagues per year for five years, and would share in the profits with the crown. Afonso V

PQI p. 122-
Five years later, in 1474, Afonso granted the monopoly to his son, João (later João II). João protected settlements by building Fort Elmina in the heart of the Gold Coast, and supported land expeditions into the interior. He set up a commission headed by two learned Jews, Abraham Zacuto in 1492, and Joseph Vizinho, his disciple, who had already come to Portugal in 1482. (Vizinho had in 1485 gone on an expedition to try their method of determining latitude). Joao II

Boorstin p.168...
Afonso and João were interested in the possibilities of proceeding westward to India. Afonso kept giving shipmasters charters to discover the mythical islands that appeared in the Atlantic on the maps of the time. Since the marriage of a Lancastrian princess into the Scandinavian royal family there had been intermittent relations between the Portuguese and Danish courts. Rumours filtered back of lands to the west beyond Iceland, and Afonso made enquiries via his ambassador about a north-west passage to India. There was also a story going around that two Portuguese seamen, sailing under Danish auspices, had reached a "land of the codfish" beyond Greenland. TPS p.139
Towards the end of his life, Prince Henry had received a map from his uncle King Eric of Denmark. Drawn in 1427 by Claudius Clavus, this map of Northern Europe set Henry thinking about a north-west expedition. In 1473 a large Luso-Norwegian expedition was launched from Iceland. It was suggested that João Corte Real took part in this (he was rewarded by the King of Portugal with the post of Governer of Terceira in the Azores for having discovered 'stockfish land' (almost certainly Newfoundland). In 1500 Corte Real's sons Gaspar and Miguel (acquaintances of Columbus) made a particular effort to explore these northern regions of America, and disappeared in Newfoundland in 1502. CbM p.290...

Portuguese Discoveries in North America
In 1474, Afonso instructed his close councillor Fernão Martins, a canon of Lisbon cathedral, to consult Toscanelli about the best sailing route to India. In Portugal there were two schools of thought - either to carry on around Africa, or to seek a western route. In Toscanelli's letter in reply (of which the only surviving copy was found in Columbus' library) he reminds Martins that he told him at an earlier conference in Florence that a westward route would be quicker. According to the map that Toscanelli included, India is just beyond the western horizon. TPS p.139
Shortly after this, exploration was interrupted by war with Castile, which lasted until 1479. Afonso died shortly thereafter and was succeeded by João II in 1481. João's first business was to restore Portuguese sovereignty on the Guinea coast, and he dispatched a fleet under Fernão Gomes who attacked a foreign fleet anchored off the trading post of Mina. TPS p.144
João decided that Mina needed to be fortified and sent a fleet commanded by Bartolomeu Dias and João Afonso de Aveiro with the new governor for Mina, D. Diogo de Azambuja, to build a warehouse in the form of a castle and a church. TPS p.145
For his next explorations, João sent a young commoner named Diogo Cão with an assortment of stone pillars surmounted by the cross of the Order of Christ and carved with the royal arms to mark the capes he should discover. Cão travelled to the mouth of the Congo, where he set up a pillar, left four messengers to search for a great king he heard about and took four natives back to Portugal. In Lisbon, King João knighted Cão and sent him back to find the messengers, who had established friendly relations with the Congolese. He then proceeded south to Cape Cross, where he died. TPS p.147
In 1481, King João sent a fleet with Diogo Cão, which founded Fort Elmina, and sailed down to Cape Santa Maria. In 1485-86 Diogo Cão made a second expedition to Cape Cross.
In 1485 two islanders, one from Terceira in the Azores, a Fleming whose name, in Portuguese, was Fernão Dulmo, and the other from Madeira, obtained a license to seek out the island of Antilia. They sailed west from Terceira, but it seems they were driven back by the prevailing westerlies and returned without sighting land. TPS p.149
Under King João II's guidance, Bartolomeu Dias reached the mouth of the Congo in 1480-84. In 1487, King João sent an overland expedition to find Prester John. The two men in the expedition were Pâro da Covilhã and Afonso de Paiva. Covilhã reached Ethiopia after travelling over Arabia and India. Boorstin p.168...
There he met the 'Prester John', named Eskander, who received letters from King João with pleasure. However, Eskander soon died, and his brother Nahum refused to let Covilhã leave, and he was there thirty years later when a second Portuguese expedition to Ethiopia arrived. TPS p.156
Late in the summer of 1487, Bartolomeu Dias set sail from Lisbon. King João still believed that if his ships proceeded far enough around Africa they would find the realm of Prester John, and so six Negroes emissaries, four of them women, were sent with Dias to broadcast the Portuguese interest in meeting the fabled Priest-king. They proceeded directly to one of Cão's last anchorages, and then followed the coast south, until they were swept out to sea in a storm. Eventually they found that they had rounded the Cape of Good Hope, and landed in Mossel Bay, which Dias' men called the Bahia dos Vaqueiros. They returned to Lisbon, arriving in December 1488. TPS p.149

Columbus
Columbus, whose voyage to America began in 1492, lived in Portugal from 1476 to 1484. He travelled to Iceland, Madeira, and the Guinea coast
Columbus married Philippa Moniz, the daughter of Bartolomeu Perestrello, one of Henry's favourite captains and the first governer of Porto Santo. SEM p.23...
Columbus spent some time living in Porto Santo, and examining Perestrello's papers and charts. (Baigent and Leigh suggest that Columbus' father in law was a Master of the Knights of Christ, and that Columbus had access to his papers). SEM p.23...
TaL
Columbus tried to persuade King João II in 1484 to fund his voyage of discovery and was present when Dias returned from rounding Africa in 1488. According to Morris, João sent out his own expedition, which failed. In any case, João didn't support Columbus, who then left for Spain to try his luck with Ferdinand and Isabella. Boorstin p.168...
Morris

After Columbus
The next step in the discoveries was delayed by domestic problems and by Columbus's discovery of America in 1492. In 1495 King Manuel I acceded, and set up a scheme to follow Dias's discoveries. Vasco da Gama, a member of the Order of Christ (c.1460-1524) sailed in 1497 and arrived in Calicut, returning to Lisbon in 1499. He set out again in 1502 to make Calicut a colony. By 1510 the Portuguese presence was secure in the Indian Ocean. Manuel

Boorstin p.168...


Vasco da Gama wearing the cross of the Order of Christ.
Maritime Museum, Lisbon.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About Prince Henry

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:52 pm

may GOD smile upon you :wink:



http://www.tranlation.langenberg

fuzzums

i lack both historian and computer knowledge . no bones about it!
please help'

azurebutterfly

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:53 pm

Anonymous wrote:may GOD smile upon you :wink:



http://www.translation.langenberg

fuzzums

i lack both historian and computer knowledge . no bones about it!
please help'

azurebutterfly

Locked