APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

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APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby APOD Robot » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:09 am

Image Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon

Explanation: Could humans live beneath the surface of the Moon? This intriguing possibility was bolstered in 2009 when Japan's Moon-orbiting SELENE spacecraft imaged a curious hole beneath the Marius Hills region on the Moon, possibly a skylight to an underground lava tube. Follow-up observations by NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) indicated that the Marius Hills Hole (MHH) visually extends down nearly 100 meters and is several hundred meters wide. Most recently, ground penetrating radar data from SELENE has been re-analyzed to reveal a series of intriguing second echoes -- indicators that the extensive lava tubes exist under Marius Hills might extend down even kilometers and be large enough to house cities. Such tubes could shelter a future Moon colony from large temperature swings, micro-meteor impacts, and harmful solar radiation. Potentially, underground lava tubes might even be sealed to contain breathable air. These lava tubes likely formed when lunar volcanos were active billions of years ago. Pictured, the surface of Marius Hills region was captured in the 1960s by NASA's Lunar Orbiter 2 mission, while an inset image of the MHH is shown from NASA's continuing LRO. Several volcanic domes are visible, while Marius Crater is visible on the upper right.

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby mooonbeemer » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:57 am

speculation about the possibility of deep lava tubes on moon being large enough to house future colonies of people sounds nice . but , it is very likely that such lava tubes and chambers are already occupied . no vacancy

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Boomer12k » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:02 am

Isn't there something similar on Mars? it looks very similar.

Oh... we can do a Grade B Movie serial..... "Molemen of the Moon", a 15 chapter extravaganza, with Buster Crabbe....Yup, Flash Gordon on the Moon...Astounding, Amazing, Tell your friends!!!

I just hope the tubes don't collapse when we give this a try....

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby distefanom » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:02 am

The possibility of living inside those lava tubes, it's a rather *brilliant* idea.
But, considering the "air" we breath nowadays, I think rather difficult even a manned mission to the moon.
We've lost the resourcefulness spirit of the pioneers.

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Case » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:42 am

Without the vistas, what’s the appeal of an underground base? It will be just as depressing as living in a bomb shelter or converted missile silo (with restriction to not go outside). I think people *need* windows to be able to look outside. People on the ISS report not only enjoying the Cupola and the few other windows, but find it very important to look out and back at Earth.

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby neufer » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:45 pm

The rabbit-hole went straight on like a tunnel for some way, and then dipped suddenly down, so suddenly that Alice had not a moment to think about stopping herself before she found herself falling down a very deep well. Either the well was very deep, or she fell very slowly, for she had plenty of time as she went down to look about her and to wonder what was going to happen next. First, she tried to look down and make out what she was coming to, but it was too dark to see anything; then she looked at the sides of the well, and noticed that they were filled with cupboards and book-shelves; here and there she saw maps and pictures hung upon pegs. She took down a jar from one of the shelves as she passed; it was labelled `ORANGE MARMALADE’, but to her great disappointment it was empty: she did not like to drop the jar for fear of killing somebody, so managed to put it into one of the cupboards as she fell past it.
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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Chris Peterson » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:23 pm

Case wrote:Without the vistas, what’s the appeal of an underground base? It will be just as depressing as living in a bomb shelter or converted missile silo (with restriction to not go outside). I think people *need* windows to be able to look outside. People on the ISS report not only enjoying the Cupola and the few other windows, but find it very important to look out and back at Earth.

Colonizing the Moon is as insane as colonizing Mars (in the sense of people living in those places permanently). But while the justification even for scientific bases on Mars is weak, there are compelling reasons for doing that on the Moon. In that case, they really would just be bases, with short term residents, and plenty of access to activities outside the living quarters and labs.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Fred the Cat » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:48 pm

Marius Hills. It sounds like a good name for a golf course. Given our previous experience with golf on the moon, and Shepard could hit the ball 2.5 miles, the Marius hole is a generous target for outside recreation. :thumb_up:
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What lies beneath that hole in the Moon

Postby neufer » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:07 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Mis%C3%A9rables wrote:
<<As the barricade falls, Valjean carries off the injured and unconscious Marius. All the other students are killed. Valjean escapes through the sewers, carrying Marius's body. He evades a police patrol, and reaches an exit gate but finds it locked. Thénardier emerges from the darkness. Valjean recognizes him, but his filthy appearance prevents Thénardier from recognizing him. Thinking Valjean a murderer lugging his victim's corpse, Thénardier offers to open the gate for money. As he searches Valjean and Marius's pockets, he surreptitiously tears off a piece of Marius's coat so he can later find out his identity. Thénardier takes the thirty francs he finds, opens the gate, and allows Valjean to leave, expecting Valjean's emergence from the sewer will distract the police who have been pursuing him.>>
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othermoons

Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby othermoons » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:32 pm

We are so far from the perfect science of any safe space faring adventures, that any mission in the foreseeable future seems suicidal. Why? Because this endeavor gets only half A#% support instead of the support of a fully committed society. Too bad!

Guest

Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Guest » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:08 pm

I always loved how Heinlein described the fascinating future farms and cities in these lava tubes in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress

Kon Jek Toor

Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Kon Jek Toor » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:31 pm

Will the humans have to kick out the original inhabitants of the lava tubes? How much of a fight will that entail? Will the humans have to ERRAICATE te original inabitants? What weapons will they use? What weapons will the original inhabitants use to defend themselves? DOES THIS MEAN WAR!!!!????

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby neufer » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Guest wrote:
I always loved how Heinlein described the fascinating future farms and cities in these lava tubes
in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_ ... h_Mistress wrote:
<<Robert A. Heinlein's 1966 _The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_ is narrated by "Mannie" O'Kelly-Davis, a computer technician who discovers that the Lunar Authority's master computer: HOLMES IV ("High-Optional, Logical, Multi-Evaluating Supervisor, Mark IV"; aka, ADAM SELENE) has developed a sense of humor. Mannie names it "Mike" after Mycroft Holmes, brother of Sherlock Holmes, and they become friends.>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Men_in_the_Moon wrote:
<<The First Men in the Moon is a scientific romance by the English author H. G. Wells, originally serialised in The Strand Magazine from December 1900 to August 1901 and published in hardcover in 1901. The novel tells the story of a journey to the moon undertaken by the two protagonists, a businessman narrator, Mr. Bedford, and an eccentric scientist, Mr. Cavor. Bedford and Cavor discover that the moon is inhabited by a sophisticated extraterrestrial civilisation of insect-like creatures they call "Selenites".

On the surface of the moon the two men discover a desolate landscape, but as the sun rises, the thin, frozen atmosphere vaporises and strange plants begin to grow with extraordinary rapidity. Bedford and Cavor leave the capsule, but in romping about get lost in the rapidly growing jungle. They hear for the first time a mysterious booming coming from beneath their feet. They encounter "great beasts", "monsters of mere fatness", that they dub "mooncalves", and five-foot-high "Selenites" tending them. At first they hide and crawl about, but growing hungry partake of some "monstrous coralline growths" of fungus that inebriate them. They wander drunkenly until they encounter a party of six extraterrestrials, who capture them.[7] The insectoid lunar natives (referred to as "Selenites", after Selene, the moon goddess) are part of a complex and technologically sophisticated society that lives underground, but this is revealed only in radio communications received from Cavor after Bedford's return to earth.

Bedford and Cavor break out of captivity beneath the surface of the moon and flee, killing several Selenites. In their flight they discover that gold is common on the moon. In their attempt to find their way back to the surface and to their sphere, they come upon some Selenites carving up mooncalves but fight their way past. Back on the surface, they split up to search for their spaceship. Bedford finds it but returns to Earth without Cavor, who injured himself in a fall and was recaptured by the Selenites, as Bedford learns from a hastily scribbled note he left behind.>>
Art Neuendorffer

davebard

Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby davebard » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:34 pm

Is this the same hole as in the inset picture? I'm trying to line up landmarks around it to confirm it's the same hole and figure the orientation in each photo, but that's still eluding me. Thoughts?

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby distefanom » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:47 pm

I haven't found it.
Maybe the Marius crater shot is for illustration purposes only. The real hole is too small or too far at the horizon, to be seen.
Anyway is not the one at the center of the image.
Furthermore, we should know how to make concrete, and use it to make structures, all using lunar soil, without water and in COMPLETE VACUUM.
Don't forget that cement technology is more than 5000 years old. And still developing.
We should know how to use concrete to build air-tight structures, while working at temperaturs near 0°K
All this wearing a spacesuit... :shock: :!:
Yes, I think definitely that Space is a place for robotized machines, that should work on their own for us.
After, and only after, (maybe) men can occupy such structures on other planets in some safety.
All this needs a *ROBUST & motivated" civil society... not exactly what we're living nowadays!
This is my p.o.v.
Mario
p.s. no, I do not own a crater on the moon... :lol2:

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Mokurai » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:31 pm

See the Heinlein story The Menace from Earth. He reckoned that people living in a cave on the Moon would be able to strap on wings and fly.

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby neufer » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:48 pm

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Mokurai wrote:
See the Heinlein story The Menace from Earth.
He reckoned that people living in a cave on the Moon would be able to strap on wings and fly.

Makes sense (... assuming it's a big enough cave under atmospheric pressure).
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby alter-ego » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:23 am

distefanom wrote:I haven't found it.
Maybe the Marius crater shot is for illustration purposes only. The real hole is too small or too far at the horizon, to be seen.
Anyway is not the one at the center of the image.

Marius Hills FoV &amp; MHH Location.PNG

It is certainly not visible in the APOD. The hole is located ~190km from Marius Crater at 14°N, 57°W
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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby sallyseaver » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:37 am

According to my new theory [Mass Vortex Theory], the moon should have a boundary layer similar to the Moho -- between the crust and mantle -- that contains water. So if we were able to drill through about 5 km of basalt in a deep mare region, a lunar colony could have sufficient water for a long time. The water in this boundary layer would not be frozen due to the heat that is still present in its core and mantle. [1]

I agree with Case, that it would NOT be appealing to live underground all the time.

An ambitious, far-fetched idea is to build a dome at 6-8 km above the surface. Use titanium from the Moon (we know it has titanium in abundance [2]) to build the scaffolding and then fit hexagonal pieces of borosilicate glass (which has a low coefficients of thermal expansion so that it is less subject to thermal stress) or a different suitable material with a join material that could grow and shrink with temperature and be resistant to weathering from cosmic rays. Ideally, we'd want a material for the dome/shield that allows the benefits of sunlight to get through but not the destructive solar energetic particles or cosmic rays --- but it can't be too expensive. Possibly, robots could be employed to build the dome after the scaffolding is in place. Of course, there would need to be a space door for spacecraft to enter and exit. Build up an atmosphere under the dome. The dome could also help lessen the thermal fluctuations on the surface for inhabitants.

In this case, living in a lunar magma tube would only need to happen while the dome is being built. :) AND there would be more territory for the human race to expand into. Financial income could come from mining for platinum, other metals, and minerals. A city on the Moon could be devoted to building and launching spacecraft.

I agree with Chris, that it makes a lot more sense to colonize the Moon first at our current level of technology. It is much closer for shuttling personnel and supplies. At the same time, we can build experience for some day attempting a colony on Mars. Launching transporters to Mars from the Moon should be less expensive than launching from Earth, once the infrastructure and fuel are economically available.

[1] "To this day, the deep near-side crust is a couple of hundred degrees warmer than its counterpart on the far side" http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/10/recent-volcanic-eruptions-moon
[2] https://www.space.com/13247-moon-map-lunar-titanium.html

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Jim Leff » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:57 pm

" Most recently, ground penetrating radar data from SELENE has been re-analyzed to reveal a series of intriguing second echoes"


...in a vacuum?

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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Chris Peterson » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:36 pm

Jim Leff wrote:" Most recently, ground penetrating radar data from SELENE has been re-analyzed to reveal a series of intriguing second echoes"

...in a vacuum?

Radar. Not Sonar.
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Re: APOD: Marius Hills and a Hole in the Moon (2017 Oct 25)

Postby Jim Leff » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:07 am

Damn. Read it four times, thought it said "sound echoes"!

Would sure help if we didn't need to bring our own O2!


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