APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

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APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by APOD Robot » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:12 am

[img]https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/calendar/S_180413.jpg[/img] Facing NGC 3344

Explanation: From our vantage point in the Milky Way Galaxy, we see NGC 3344 face-on. Nearly 40,000 light-years across, the big, beautiful spiral galaxy is located just 20 million light-years away in the constellation of Leo Minor. This multi-color Hubble Space Telescope close-up of NGC 3344 includes remarkable details from near infrared to ultraviolet wavelengths. The frame extends some 15,000 light-years across the spiral's central regions. From the core outward, the galaxy's colors change from the yellowish light of old stars in the center to young blue star clusters and reddish star forming regions along the loose, fragmented spiral arms. Of course, the bright stars with a spiky appearance are in front of NGC 3344 and lie well within our own Milky Way.

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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Ann » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:26 am

NGC 3344. Photo: ESA/Hubble and NASA.
NGC 3344. Photo: Adam Block.























NGC 3344 is a petite, delicate spiral galaxy. It frankly looks small, because of its relatively small and faint yellow bulge and its numerous arms, which are dotted with young star clusters and emission nebulas, yet are undisturbed by any truly chaotic starforming mayhem. Admittedly you can't really tell the size of a galaxy from the relative size of its bulge (which is small in giant galaxy M101), or from the absence or presence of starforming mayhem (which is very much present in small galaxy NGC 1313). The image in the first link is by Robert Gendler and the second by ESO.

But how small is NGC 3344 really? According to my software, Guide, which quotes the NGC/IC Project, the distance to NGC 3344 is 59 million light-years. If the galaxy is at that distance, its luminosity, according to Guide and the NGC/IC Project is 9 billion suns, or 0.4 times the Milky Way. But if NGC 3344 is as close as 20 million light-years, how petite is that galaxy really?

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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Boomer12k » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:54 am

Just an awesome image...

What is the metalicity of the Old, Yellow, central stars?

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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by orin stepanek » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:52 am

Galaxies look almost alive; especially the spirals! Nice to see how many of them there are! Gotta be life on many of these! :wink:
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by rstevenson » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:09 pm

Ann wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:26 am
...But how small is NGC 3344 really? According to my software, Guide, which quotes the NGC/IC Project, the distance to NGC 3344 is 59 million light-years. If the galaxy is at that distance, its luminosity, according to Guide and the NGC/IC Project is 9 billion suns, or 0.4 times the Milky Way. But if NGC 3344 is as close as 20 million light-years, how petite is that galaxy really?
Hmmmmm. I know there's often some considerable range of values around distances to galaxies, but with this APOD (and many other sources) saying 20 million light-years (Wikipedia says 22.5), I have to wonder why your Guide software says 59 million light-years. That would seem to be well outside any likely error bars. But...

I checked the NED (NASA/IPAC EXTRAGALACTIC DATABASE) and found the following computed values...

Code: Select all

      Distance Modulus (mag)	  Metric Distance (Mpc)		Mly (computed by me)
Mean	30.25				12.441			40.6
StdDev	1.03				6.485			
Min.	28.92				6.100			19.9
Max.	31.90				24.000			78.3
Median	29.96				9.820			32.0
Well, I guess that shows just how much we have yet to learn. But I wonder why the most often given distance, 20 Mly, is (in NED, at least) the minimum distance found in the papers NED is using as the basis of its data.

Rob

PS
This note introduces the NED table I borrowed from above...
Summary Statistics computed by NED from 7 Distance(s) in the literature:
NOTE: These summary statistics are provided for "quick-look" reference only;
they are based exclusively on original values, as published.
No homogenization or corrections have been applied.

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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:56 pm

rstevenson wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:09 pm
Ann wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:26 am
...But how small is NGC 3344 really? According to my software, Guide, which quotes the NGC/IC Project, the distance to NGC 3344 is 59 million light-years. If the galaxy is at that distance, its luminosity, according to Guide and the NGC/IC Project is 9 billion suns, or 0.4 times the Milky Way. But if NGC 3344 is as close as 20 million light-years, how petite is that galaxy really?
Hmmmmm. I know there's often some considerable range of values around distances to galaxies, but with this APOD (and many other sources) saying 20 million light-years (Wikipedia says 22.5), I have to wonder why your Guide software says 59 million light-years. That would seem to be well outside any likely error bars.
Just considering the Wikipedia article, its distance value references a paper which doesn't appear to have any information on this galaxy at all. So it's unclear what the source is for that value. The page itself seems to have been created somewhat automatically.
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:58 pm

Ann wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:26 am
But if NGC 3344 is as close as 20 million light-years, how petite is that galaxy really?
The closer, the smaller, right?
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by neufer » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:35 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGC_3344 wrote: <<NGC 3344 is a relatively isolated barred spiral galaxy located 22.5 million light years away in the constellation Leo Minor. This galaxy belongs to the group known as the Leo spur, which is a branch of the Virgo Supercluster. The Virgo Supercluster is a mass concentration of galaxies containing the Virgo Cluster and Local Group. At least 100 galaxy groups and clusters are located within its diameter of 33 megaparsecs (110 million light-years). A 2014 study indicates that the Virgo Supercluster is only a lobe of an even greater supercluster, Laniakea, a larger, competing referent of Local Supercluster centered on the Great Attractor. The Laniakea Supercluster encompasses approximately 100,000 galaxies stretched out over 160 megaparsecs (520 million light-years).>>
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Fred the Cat » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:46 pm

With face on galaxies it seems to me that the possibility exists that one will be found looking right down the pipe at its central black hole’s jet.

Should we all put our hands up? :shock:
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:59 pm

Fred the Cat wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:46 pm
With face on galaxies it seems to me that the possibility exists that one will be found looking right down the pipe at its central black hole’s jet.

Should we all put our hands up? :shock:
Only if it's active, which they usually aren't. But if so, we could easily detect it by radio and x-ray emission, even if it was optically invisible in the light of the central bulge.
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by neufer » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:55 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:59 pm
Fred the Cat wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:46 pm

With face on galaxies it seems to me that the possibility exists that one will be found looking right down the pipe at its central black hole’s jet.

Should we all put our hands up? :shock:
Only if it's active, which they usually aren't. But if so, we could easily detect it by radio and x-ray emission, even if it was optically invisible in the light of the central bulge.
  • ... and do you really know the orientation of the accretion disk itself :?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_galactic_nucleus wrote: <<An active galactic nucleus (AGN) is a compact region at the center of a galaxy that has a much higher than normal luminosity over at least some portion—and possibly all—of the electromagnetic spectrum, with characteristics indicating that the excess luminosity is not produced by stars. Such excess non-stellar emission has been observed in the radio, microwave, infrared, optical, ultra-violet, X-ray and gamma ray wavebands. The radiation from an AGN is believed to be a result of accretion of matter by a supermassive black hole at the center of its host galaxy. The observed characteristics of an AGN depend on several properties such as the mass of the central black hole, the rate of gas accretion onto the black hole, the orientation of the accretion disk, the degree of obscuration of the nucleus by dust, and presence or absence of jets.

Seyfert galaxies are one of the two largest groups of active galaxies, along with quasars. They have quasar-like nuclei (very luminous, distant and bright sources of electromagnetic radiation) with very high surface brightnesses whose spectra reveal strong, high-ionisation emission lines, but unlike quasars, their host galaxies are clearly detectable.

Seen in visible light, most Seyfert galaxies look like normal spiral galaxies, but when studied under other wavelengths, it becomes clear that the luminosity of their cores is of comparable intensity to the luminosity of whole galaxies the size of the Milky Way. Seyfert galaxies account for about 10% of all galaxies. These galaxies have supermassive black holes at their centers which are surrounded by accretion discs of in-falling material. The accretion discs are believed to be the source of the observed ultraviolet radiation. Ultraviolet emission and absorption lines provide the best diagnostics for the composition of the surrounding material.

Some observations suggest that AGN emission from the nucleus is not spherically symmetric and that the nucleus often shows axial symmetry, with radiation escaping in a conical region. Based on this observations, models have been devised to explain the different classes of AGNs as due to their different orientations with respect to the observational line of sight. Such models are called unified models. Unified models explain the difference between Seyfert I and Seyfert II galaxies as being the result of Seyfert II galaxies being surrounded by obscuring toruses which prevent telescopes from seeing the broad line region. Quasars and blazars can be fit quite easily in this model. The main problem of such an unification scheme is trying to explain why some AGN are radio loud while others are radio quiet. It has been suggested that these differences may be due to differences in the spin of the central black hole.>>
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:57 pm

neufer wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:55 pm
  • ... and do you really know the orientation of the accretion disk itself :?:
It's true that the accretion disc may not be parallel to the galactic plane. But I think the assumption in the question I was responding to considers the case where they're about the same.
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Ann » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:31 pm

rstevenson wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:09 pm
Ann wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:26 am
...But how small is NGC 3344 really? According to my software, Guide, which quotes the NGC/IC Project, the distance to NGC 3344 is 59 million light-years. If the galaxy is at that distance, its luminosity, according to Guide and the NGC/IC Project is 9 billion suns, or 0.4 times the Milky Way. But if NGC 3344 is as close as 20 million light-years, how petite is that galaxy really?
Hmmmmm. I know there's often some considerable range of values around distances to galaxies, but with this APOD (and many other sources) saying 20 million light-years (Wikipedia says 22.5), I have to wonder why your Guide software says 59 million light-years. That would seem to be well outside any likely error bars. But...

Rob
I rather doubt that NGC 3344 is as close as 20 (or 22) million light-years, if a distance of 59 light-years would make it only 0.4 times as bright as the Milky Way.

If it was three times closer, that would make it only a ninth that size and brightness, right? Bear with my terrible math. But in case my math is correct, assuming a distance of 59 million light-years makes NGC 3344 only 0.4 times as luminous as the Milky Way, and a distance three times closer would make it only a ninth of that brightness - well, then NGC 3344 would be only 0.044 times as bright as the Milky Way.

I rather doubt that NGC 3344 is as small as that. I'm not sure that a galaxy that small can be as "well-organized" as NGC 3344.

Of course, NGC 3344 is relatively isolated, and isolated galaxies may evolve in surprising ways.

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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:39 pm

Ann wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:31 pm
If it was three times closer, that would make it only a ninth that size and brightness, right?
The brightness of the galaxy doesn't change with distance in such a clear way.
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Fred the Cat » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:19 pm

neufer wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:55 pm
Chris Peterson wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:59 pm
Fred the Cat wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:46 pm

With face on galaxies it seems to me that the possibility exists that one will be found looking right down the pipe at its central black hole’s jet.

Should we all put our hands up?
Only if it's active, which they usually aren't. But if so, we could easily detect it by radio and x-ray emission, even if it was optically invisible in the light of the central bulge.
  • ... and do you really know the orientation of the accretion disk itself :?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_galactic_nucleus wrote:
<<An active galactic nucleus (AGN) is a compact region at the center of a galaxy that has a much higher than normal luminosity over at least some portion—and possibly all—of the electromagnetic spectrum, with characteristics indicating that the excess luminosity is not produced by stars. Such excess non-stellar emission has been observed in the radio, microwave, infrared, optical, ultra-violet, X-ray and gamma ray wavebands. The radiation from an AGN is believed to be a result of accretion of matter by a supermassive black hole at the center of its host galaxy. The observed characteristics of an AGN depend on several properties such as the mass of the central black hole, the rate of gas accretion onto the black hole, the orientation of the accretion disk, the degree of obscuration of the nucleus by dust, and presence or absence of jets.

Seyfert galaxies are one of the two largest groups of active galaxies, along with quasars. They have quasar-like nuclei (very luminous, distant and bright sources of electromagnetic radiation) with very high surface brightnesses whose spectra reveal strong, high-ionisation emission lines, but unlike quasars, their host galaxies are clearly detectable.

Seen in visible light, most Seyfert galaxies look like normal spiral galaxies, but when studied under other wavelengths, it becomes clear that the luminosity of their cores is of comparable intensity to the luminosity of whole galaxies the size of the Milky Way. Seyfert galaxies account for about 10% of all galaxies. These galaxies have supermassive black holes at their centers which are surrounded by accretion discs of in-falling material. The accretion discs are believed to be the source of the observed ultraviolet radiation. Ultraviolet emission and absorption lines provide the best diagnostics for the composition of the surrounding material.

Some observations suggest that AGN emission from the nucleus is not spherically symmetric and that the nucleus often shows axial symmetry, with radiation escaping in a conical region. Based on this observations, models have been devised to explain the different classes of AGNs as due to their different orientations with respect to the observational line of sight. Such models are called unified models. Unified models explain the difference between Seyfert I and Seyfert II galaxies as being the result of Seyfert II galaxies being surrounded by obscuring toruses which prevent telescopes from seeing the broad line region. Quasars and blazars can be fit quite easily in this model. The main problem of such an unification scheme is trying to explain why some AGN are radio loud while others are radio quiet. It has been suggested that these differences may be due to differences in the spin of the central black hole.>>
Thanks! I was wondering if the premise was wobbly. :wink: Like humans - we get much more vocal when there's food on the table. :ssmile:
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by ta152h0 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:03 pm

And all this began 13.8 billion years ago. Where there is light, there is speed of light. Where there is dark, there is speed of darkness.
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by neufer » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:28 am

ta152h0 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:03 pm

And all this began 13.8 billion years ago.
Where there is light, there is speed of light.
Where there is dark, there is speed of darkness.
The cosmic microwave background (CMB) basically represents a specific point in time (about 380,000 years after the Big Bang).

Hence, ever since that time our observable CMB has been receding from us at the speed of light.

The 'Dark Ages ages' directly front of the CMB represents a relatively dark shell from 380,000 years to 150,000,000 years ago.

This shell, too, is receding from us at the speed of light.

The actual individual physical objects we observe at any given time (e.g., the UDFy-38135539, EGSY8p7 & GN-z11 galaxies and currently observed CMB features) will never move at the speed of light... but they will slowly evolve over time until their internal clocks grind to a halt as they approach the speed of light due to the exponential expansion of the Universe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_universe#Dark_Ages wrote:

<<The "Dark Ages" span a period from about 380,000 years after the Big Bang, when the universe had cooled enough to allow light to travel long distances, but light-producing structures such as stars and galaxies did not yet exist. During the Dark Ages, the temperature of the universe cooled from some 4000 K down to about 60 K. During this period, the universe was "dark" in several ways. Before the start of the Dark Ages, it was opaque because it was filled with a hot plasma which prevented light from travelling far. The effect was similar to being filled with a glowing fog. During recombination/decoupling, the plasma cooled and formed neutral atoms, and the universe became transparent for the first time. However it was still "dark" for many millions of years, because stars, galaxies and other light-giving structures did not yet exist. Only two sources of photons existed: the photons released during recombination/decoupling, as hydrogen atoms formed, which we can still detect today as the cosmic microwave background (CMB), and photons occasionally released by neutral hydrogen atoms, known as the 21 cm spin line of neutral hydrogen. There was no other light since stars and galaxies had not yet formed. The Dark Ages ended gradually as structure formed, during a period from around 150 million years after the Big Bang to around 1 billion years.

The October 2010 discovery of UDFy-38135539, the first observed galaxy to have existed during the following reionization epoch, gives us a window into these times. The galaxy earliest in this period observed and thus also the most distant galaxy ever observed is currently on the record of Leiden University's Richard J. Bouwens and Garth D. Illingsworth from UC Observatories/Lick Observatory. They found the galaxy UDFj-39546284 to be at a time some 480 million years after the Big Bang or about halfway through the Cosmic Dark Ages at a distance of about 13.2 billion light-years. More recently, the UDFy-38135539, EGSY8p7 & GN-z11 galaxies were found to be around 380–550 million years after the Big Bang and at a distance of around 13.4 billion light-years.There is also currently an observational effort underway to detect the faint 21 cm spin line radiation, as it is in principle an even more powerful tool than the cosmic microwave background for studying the early universe.>>
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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:33 am

neufer wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:28 am
The cosmic microwave background (CMB) basically represents a specific point in time (about 380,000 years after the Big Bang).

Hence, ever since that time our observable CMB has been receding from us at the speed of light.
I think the CMB is receding at somewhat less than the speed of light. The edge of the observable universe lies behind it. That region is obscured from us using electromagnetic radiation, but is theoretically accessible using gravitational wave detectors.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Facing NGC 3344 (2018 Apr 13)

Post by NCTom » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:30 am

Thanks, all you smart people, for the research you do! This is better than going back to all those college classes. No tests!

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The dance of the 7 veils.

Post by neufer » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:07 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:33 am
neufer wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:28 am

The cosmic microwave background (CMB) basically represents a specific point in time (about 380,000 years after the Big Bang).

Hence, ever since that time our observable CMB has been receding from us at the speed of light.
I think the CMB is receding at somewhat less than the speed of light. The edge of the observable universe lies behind it. That region is obscured from us using electromagnetic radiation, but is theoretically accessible using gravitational wave detectors.
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
If one were living 375,000 years after the Big Bang she would be inside an impenetrable fog of plasma. Suddenly that plasma would turn to neutral hydrogen everywhere!

However, it would appear to the observer that the 'fog' clearing occurred only locally but that the clearing was traveling outward at the speed of light. Three dimensional structures in this receding hot fog would appear as rapidly evolving two dimensional structures.

Billions of years later the distant fog continues to recede at the speed of light (just 380,000 light years behind the Big Bang itself due only to the BB's head start) but now that fog is very cold and those two dimensional structures are evolving extremely slowly.

Because of the expansion of the Universe the CMB has only a scant 12,000,000 years to evolve by its own internal clock. Hence, while we might perceive that the CMB is an unchanging physical object that cannot possibly move at the speed of light it is merely the shadow of an event that occur billions of years ago.

Because of the expansion of the Universe closer astronomical features that are ~10 billion light years distant still have ~10 billion light years to evolve by their own internal clocks before they grow cold and stop evolving. It is the last of "the 7 veils" our current distant universe will remove.
Art Neuendorffer