Origin of the Universe

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saturno2
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Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:18 am

I think that
The current theory about the origin if the Universe,
has in one part a semi-religious conception
In fact, who raised for the first time about the
primordial atom, the Big Bang and the expansion
of the Univrerse, was the astronomer and priest Lamaitre.
As regards the primordial atom, " the egg of the Universe",
the point of infinite density, it is a theological conception.
It is absurd to think that the Universe arose practically
from nothing, as if it were the product of a
" cosmic magic "
What do you think?

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Chris Peterson
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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:37 am

saturno2 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:18 am I think that
The current theory about the origin if the Universe,
has in one part a semi-religious conception
In fact, who raised for the first time about the
primordial atom, the Big Bang and the expansion
of the Univrerse, was the astronomer and priest Lamaitre.
As regards the primordial atom, " the egg of the Universe",
the point of infinite density, it is a theological conception.
It is absurd to think that the Universe arose practically
from nothing, as if it were the product of a
" cosmic magic "
What do you think?
I think it is absurd to think that the Universe requires a "cause", since the idea of cause and effect is a property of the Universe itself, and like time and space, came into existence with the Universe.
Chris

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by rstevenson » Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:04 pm

I think the singularity named the Big Bang is more a function of the mathematics used to try to understand the early universe than a real thing. In a sense, once the math reaches a singularity it stops being descriptive, because not even math can say anything about nothing. No matter how elegant an answer it may be, nothing is nothing.

To insist now, given our relatively primitive state of knowledge about the early universe, that there was nothing “before” the singularity is itself a theological statement.

Rob

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:22 pm

rstevenson wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:04 pm I think the singularity named the Big Bang is more a function of the mathematics used to try to understand the early universe than a real thing. In a sense, once the math reaches a singularity it stops being descriptive, because not even math can say anything about nothing. No matter how elegant an answer it may be, nothing is nothing.

To insist now, given our relatively primitive state of knowledge about the early universe, that there was nothing “before” the singularity is itself a theological statement.

Rob
Not at all. Regardless of any issues with singularities, we do understand quite well that space and time are properties of the Universe, and therefore the concept of "before" is meaningless.
Chris

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:36 am

About this topic, two great school of thought
are opened.
The first school of thought support that
the Universe arose with the Big Bang,
from a point of infinite density.
Before the Big Bang there was nothing.
This theory is "armored" and somewhat dogmatic.
The second school of thought support that
before Big Bang there was matter, space and
time .
My vote for second school.

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:55 am

saturno2 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:36 am About this topic, two great school of thought
are opened.
The first school of thought support that
the Universe arose with the Big Bang,
from a point of infinite density.
Before the Big Bang there was nothing.
This theory is "armored" and somewhat dogmatic.
The second school of thought support that
before Big Bang there was matter, space and
time .
My vote for second school.
The first is supported by multiple independent lines of empirical evidence. The latter by none (which is why no such "school" really exists in the scientific community). It's not a matter of voting.
Chris

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Wed May 04, 2022 11:33 pm

(Second school of thought)
Penrose support that the Universe is cyclical
That the Big Bang was not origin of time
Occur Big Bang periodically. The time interval
between one Big Bang and the next is called an eon.
Penrose support an eternal Universe ( In absolute terms,
the Universe is neither created nor disappears) .

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Chris Peterson » Wed May 04, 2022 11:55 pm

saturno2 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:33 pm (Second school of thought)
Penrose support that the Universe is cyclical
That the Big Bang was not origin of time
Occur Big Bang periodically. The time interval
between one Big Bang and the next is called an eon.
Penrose support an eternal Universe ( In absolute terms,
the Universe is neither created nor disappears) .
Pure speculation, though, unsupported by any evidence at all... and at this point, untestable, and therefore not even a valid hypothesis.
Chris

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Wed May 11, 2022 1:15 am

( Second school of thought)
In this school there are very bold theories-
One of them support que in the Big Bang arose
the Universe with positive time and at the same
time an anti-universe with negative time, back wards.
It support that when a particle arises, it is anti-particle
is created.
Anti-universe Time iqual 0 Universe
negative time Big Bang positive time

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Chris Peterson » Wed May 11, 2022 1:19 am

saturno2 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 1:15 am ( Second school of thought)
In this school there are very bold theories-
One of them support que in the Big Bang arose
the Universe with positive time and at the same
time an anti-universe with negative time, back wards.
It support that when a particle arises, it is anti-particle
is created.
Anti-universe Time iqual 0 Universe
negative time Big Bang positive time
Why not go with leprechauns or fairies? Seriously, if you're willing to go with explanations that have zero evidence to support them, the sky is the limit.
Chris

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Sun May 15, 2022 11:52 pm

I do not want to annoy the readers. Nothing of that.
But, what is the idea?
I think that the point of infinite density, where
the Universe originated, according to the current
Big Bang theory, is the " Aquiles heel " of this theory.
Indeed. I believe that no one has empirically
demostrated the existence of that initial point,
and therefore, it is a pure theorical and theological
speculation.

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Orca » Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:31 pm

saturno2 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:52 pm I do not want to annoy the readers. Nothing of that.
But, what is the idea?
I think that the point of infinite density, where
the Universe originated, according to the current
Big Bang theory, is the " Aquiles heel " of this theory.
Indeed. I believe that no one has empirically
demostrated the existence of that initial point,
and therefore, it is a pure theorical and theological
speculation.
The pre-expansion singularity is implied by the BBT. The theory is highly successful in terms of predictability after the expansion of the universe. Predictions about what happened before the expansion are not really possible. It’s like hypothesizing about other universes; without a way to measure or test they are fun to think about but beyond our ability to validate.

Think about black holes for a moment. Though their existence was predicted by GR, Einstein was reticent to accept that such things would actually exist in nature. Then we discovered them! Infinite density is implied inside black holes because we don’t have any physics or chemistry that would prevent catastrophic collapse once you have a certain amount of material in a given vicinity of space.

Is it possible that the singularity is just a mathematical artifact and that there is a whole subset of physics happening inside black holes? Could some unknown form or structure of matter exist that is hyper-dense but not infinitely dense? Maybe! We’ll likely never know, because information (of a useful sort) can’t escape the event horizon.

On this side of the black hole, implied infinity is “close enough” because functionally, it doesn’t really matter if a black hole consists of a point that is infinitely dense or just very, very, very, very, very, very, very dense. In the same sense, it doesn’t really matter when you think about the pre-Big Bang singularity, either.

With this in mind, one can hardly conclude that accepting the implied existence of a pre-Big Bang singularity is tantamount to “theology.”

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:25 am

Thanks, Orca, your explanation is very interesting
Well, let is leave infinite density and teology aside.
By a space-time singularity suddenly a point appears
containing matter, energy, space and time.
This is what I call " cosmic magic"
There must be some better scientific explanation
for the origin of the Universe

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:00 am

saturno2 wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:25 am Thanks, Orca, your explanation is very interesting
Well, let is leave infinite density and teology aside.
By a space-time singularity suddenly a point appears
containing matter, energy, space and time.
This is what I call " cosmic magic"
There must be some better scientific explanation
for the origin of the Universe
Our current theory does not say that any singularity suddenly appeared.

Because a theory conflicts with your philosophical view, or with your intuition, is a baseless reason to reject it. This theory explains with great precision almost everything we observe in the Universe, which is why consensus for its accuracy is so high.
Chris

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:26 pm

The James Webb telescope is sending back a series of
never-before-seen images of the early Universe.
This arsenal of new Knowledge could ( eventually )
shake the current theory of Bing Bang, totally or
partially and, of course, the origin of the Universe by
a singularity from a point of infinite density.
A strong discussion opens about the true of the origin
of the Universe.

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:40 pm

saturno2 wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:26 pm The James Webb telescope is sending back a series of
never-before-seen images of the early Universe.
This arsenal of new Knowledge could ( eventually )
shake the current theory of Bing Bang, totally or
partially and, of course, the origin of the Universe by
a singularity from a point of infinite density.
A strong discussion opens about the true of the origin
of the Universe.
It is unlikely to radically change our ideas about cosmology. It is likely to require adjustments to those ideas.
Chris

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by bystander » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:19 am

Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:40 pm It is unlikely to radically change our ideas about cosmology. It is likely to require adjustments to those ideas.
So no electric or plasma universe in the near future? :shock:
Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
alive to the gentle breeze of communication, and please stop being such a jerk.
— Garrison Keillor

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:28 am

bystander wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:19 am
Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:40 pm It is unlikely to radically change our ideas about cosmology. It is likely to require adjustments to those ideas.
So no electric or plasma universe in the near future? :shock:
Anything is possible. But I'll not hold my breath on that one!

If I had to guess, based just on the most preliminary data coming from JWST, I'd say that some early timing and the nature of inflation might get tweaked. There are just too many independent lines of evidence supporting the lambda-CDM model for me to think it's going to be thrown out or radically revised. Like most of physics now: our understanding is so deep that we've reached the point of refining theories, not replacing them.
Chris

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by Ann » Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:23 am

I recommend this video by Sabine Hossenfelder about the Big Bang. I had great fun watching it.

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:41 am

Thanks, Ann
The video is very interesting

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:03 pm

New JWST images show the oldest galaxies
ever discovered.
These galaxies are well formed and relatively
close to the start of the Big Bang.
This contradicts the predictions of Big Bang
theory, since, at these distance galaxies in the
process of formation should be seen. and not
well-formed galaxies.

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by THX1138 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:32 am

Hi all
Yes indeed some of these galaxies do seem to have more form than that which had been predicted but nonetheless this is just another instance such as Chris has suggested, some of the physics may need to be tweaked here and there but the song still remains the same; so to speak. The big bang was the beginning.
Anyway at this time I'm wondering what the current thinking is with regards to the period of hyper inflation and just as much so why did hyper inflation end?
I wonder if this can be connected to the early galaxies forming earlier than what was expected but I'll leave this question for another day
I've come to the conclusion that when i said i wanted to be somebody when i grew up i probably should have been more specific

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by saturno2 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:45 am

The oldest galaxy candidate ever seen is CEERS-93316 whose
image ( JWST ) correspond to 235 million years after
the Big Bang,
In a astronomy article I read:
" They will have to spend about 250 million years from
the Big Bang, wich gave rise to the Cosmos, to see
the birth of the first stars in the Universe.
If the data confirms: The galaxy 93316 was
15 million years before the supposed formation of the
first stars of the Universe.

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by jimfish » Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:14 pm

I do not agree with the modern theory about the origin of the universe. I think there are a lot of open questions in this theory.

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Re: Origin of the Universe

Post by THX1138 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:47 am

I don't like it either, like not at all but until you or someone else comes up with a better idea which can be backed up by observation or some other repeatable tests I'm afraid we're all stuck with it.
I'm beginning to believe the flying spaghetti monster created the entire universe and I can offer as much proof as you can for your idea's
I've come to the conclusion that when i said i wanted to be somebody when i grew up i probably should have been more specific