APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
User avatar
APOD Robot
Otto Posterman
Posts: 4688
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:27 am

APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07)

Post by APOD Robot » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:06 am

Image J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist

Explanation: Why does this star have so few heavy elements? Stars born in the generation of our Sun have an expected abundance of elements heavier than hydrogen and helium mixed into their atmospheres. Stars born in the generation before our Sun, Population II stars, the stars that created most of the heavy elements around us today, are seen to have some, although less, elements heavier than H and He. Furthermore, even the elusive never-seen first stars in the universe, so-called Population III stars, are predicted to have a large mass and a small but set amount of heavy elements. Yet low-mass Milky Way star SDSS J102915+172927, among others, appears to have less metals than ever predicted for any stars, including at least 50 times less lithium than came out of the Big Bang. The unusual nature of this star, initially cataloged by the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS) and pictured above, was discovered by detailed spectroscopic observations by a large VLT telescope in Chile. Many models of star formation indicate that such a star should not even form. Research is ongoing, however, with one leading hypothesis holding that fragile primordial lithium was destroyed in the star's hot core.

<< Previous APODDiscuss Any APOD Next APOD >>
[/b]

User avatar
bystander
Apathetic Retiree
Posts: 21027
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:06 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by bystander » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:22 am

Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
alive to the gentle breeze of communication, and please stop being such a jerk.
— Garrison Keillor

English Adept

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by English Adept » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:27 am

Stars born in the generation before our Sun, Population II stars, the stars that created most of the heavy elements around us today, are seen to have some, although less, elements heavier than H and He.

Yet low-mass Milky Way star SDSS J102915+172927, among others, appears to have less metals than ever predicted for any stars, including at least 50 times less lithium than came out of the Big Bang.
Whoever wrote this, if English is their first language, should be ashamed. :roll: The first sentence should read "...are seen to have some, although fewer, elements..." The second should be "...appears to have fewer metals..."

Sorry for the somewhat off topic comment, but I never cease to notice yet more English native speakers/writers who seem to have never heard of the word "fewer" before, or at least have no clue how to use it. In a nutshell, it is used in place of "less" whenever whole and separate quantities are being discussed. "Less" is used when there's units with an indiscernible or inseparable quantity. Therefore, "...50 times less lithium..." is correct, even though technically it has atoms that could be called separate quantities. "Lithium" is considered one unit, singular, whereas elements and metals are plural, and separable.

User avatar
Ann
4725 Å
Posts: 12083
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by Ann » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:45 am

Well, as a non-native English speaker it seems to me that there might be a difference between "fewer metals" and "less metals". "Fewer metals" might mean that the spectrum of a star shows evidence of only, say, three elements apart from hydrogen and helium. "Less metals" might mean that the elements apart from hydrogen and helium exist in extremely low amounts.

Ann
Last edited by Ann on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
Color Commentator

User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8398
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by owlice » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:45 am

English Adept, that's quite a crabby post you have there. BTW:
Whoever wrote this, if English is their first language
his first language
somewhat off topic comment
somewhat off-topic comment
when there's units
when there are units

Can we be done with the English lessons now? Good. Now back to business: What a cool APOD! The video is interesting, well worth the three minutes it takes to watch.
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

starstruck

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by starstruck » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:10 am

?? !

I don't seem to be able to see the video clip to which you refer owlice . . . but then, I can't really string a decent sentance together in English either! Doesn't stop me from enjoying APOD and learning about things I never even knew I didn't know. My thanks to the people behind APOD for always providing something surprising and interesting.

User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8398
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by owlice » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:12 am

starstruck, it's the link at this star in this phrase: "unusual nature of this star"
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

florid_snow
Ensign
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:54 am

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by florid_snow » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:16 am

There is no such thing as "good writing" only good re-writing, as a professor of mine used to say. :)

I can't believe it wasn't until I was 20 years old that I really realized the sun was a star, but close up. I probably heard it a bunch of times in school, but it never clicked until I watched an episode of Carl Sagan's Cosmos. All this complicated "this is a really crazy discovery" stuff is great, but sometimes it is the really basic stuff smart people assume everyone knows that can, with the right emphasis, blow the public's mind.

starstruck

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by starstruck » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:21 am

Many thanks . . . found it . . . I was just starting to go through all the links when I saw your reply.

English Adept

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by English Adept » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:48 am

Well, as a non-native English speaker it seems to me that there might be a difference between "fewer metals" and "less metals". "Fewer metals" might mean that the spectrum of a star shows evidence of only, say, three elements apart from hydrogen and helium. "Less metals" might mean that the elements apart from hydrogen and helium exist in extremely low amounts.
Ann, that's not how it works. It's two different forms of the same meaning (fewer versus less). If the second meaning you suggest was intended, it should be stated as "lower amounts of metals", or something similar.


"owlice", that's quite an unduly and inaccurately critical post. BTW, on that note, you didn't include a capital letter, period, or complete those "sentences".
his first language
No, "their first language", as it wasn't known to me if it was a male or female writer.
somewhat off-topic comment
No, there's no hyphen required.
when there are units
A minute, insignificant correction. I was making note of a substantial, noticeable, common error. On that note, yes I'm done with this smarty-pants game of making it into petty and false corrections. Good.

About the APOD, that's wild they find something that seems to be circumstances past, out of the early universe. Even seemingly sound, well established theories get turned on their head sometimes. It's part of the excitement of science. :)

nstahl
Science Officer
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:08 am

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by nstahl » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:23 am

I'm with Ann and owlice on this one. And that is part of the excitement of science, and why if you want understanding about how the universe works science is your source to use. It's self-correcting. It's not perfectly true but at least it's getting closer and closer, which is all we can hope for.

mst66186
Ensign
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by mst66186 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:01 am

APOD Robot wrote:... Furthermore, even the elusive never-seen first stars in the universe, so-called Population III stars, are predicted to have a large mass and a small but set amount of heavy elements. ...
Ummm... from following the links it seems that our sun would be a generation III star and these elusive never-seen first stars should be Population I?

Guest

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by Guest » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:03 am

I am enjoying this English Lesson of the Day!

Atomische
Asternaut
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:20 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by Atomische » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:32 am

Perhaps the heavier elements have been removed.

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 18805
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Why, now I see there's METTLE in thee!

Post by neufer » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:43 am

Guest wrote:
I am enjoying this English Lesson of the Day!
  • --------------------------------------------------------
    . As You Like It Act 2, Scene 7

    JAQUES: What is he of basest function
    . That says his bravery is not of my cost,
    . Thinking that I mean him, but therein suits
    . His folly to the METTLE of my speech?
    . There then; how then? what then? Let me see wherein
    . My tongue hath wrong'd him: if it do him right,
    . Then he hath wrong'd himself; if he be free,
    . Why then my taxing like a wild-goose flies,
    . Unclaim'd of any man.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    . Othello, The Moor of Venice Act 4, Scene 2

    IAGO: Why, now I see there's METTLE in thee, and even from
    . this instant to build on thee a better opinion than ever before.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    . Julius Caesar Act 1, Scene 2

    BRUTUS: What a blunt fellow is this grown to be!
    . He was quick METTLE when he went to school.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    . King Henry IV, Part i Act 2, Scene 4

    FALSTAFF: Well, that rascal hath good METTLE in him; he will not run.
    ...................................................
    . Act 5, Scene 4

    PRINCE HENRY: O, this boy Lends METTLE to us all!
    --------------------------------------------------------
    . King Henry IV, Part ii Act 5, Scene 3

    FALSTAFF: I did not think Master Silence had been a man of this METTLE.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    . King Henry V Act 4, Scene 8

    FLUELLEN: By this day and this light, the fellow has METTLE enough in his belly.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    . Much Ado About Nothing Act 5, Scene 1

    CLAUDIO: What, courage, man! What though care killed a cat,
    . thou hast METTLE enough in thee to kill care.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    . Measure for Measure Act 3, Scene 2

    LUCIO: I will pray, Pompey, to increase your bondage: If
    . you take it not patiently, why, your METTLE is the more.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    . A Lover's Complaint Stanza 16

    'Well could he ride, and often men would say
    'That horse his METTLE from his rider takes
    --------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

reedkantor

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by reedkantor » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:48 am

owlice wrote:English Adept, that's quite a crabby post you have there. BTW:
Whoever wrote this, if English is their first language
his first language
somewhat off topic comment
somewhat off-topic comment
when there's units
when there are units

Can we be done with the English lessons now? Good. Now back to business: What a cool APOD! The video is interesting, well worth the three minutes it takes to watch.
thats "fewer"metals, not "less metals." grammar is important when writing...know the difference between the use of "fewer" and "less." muchas gracias.


User avatar
orin stepanek
Plutopian
Posts: 7610
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:41 pm
Location: Nebraska

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by orin stepanek » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:13 pm

Wow! :shock: It makes one scared to make a post if his; or her; English is critiqued! :roll: Anyway I enjoyed today's APOD! I would think to destroy the lithium; the star must of been in a state of fission instead of fusion! :? That doesn't seem to work for me!
Orin

Smile today; tomorrow's another day!

Axel
Ensign
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Montreal, Quebec

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by Axel » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:35 pm

It's not the first time that I've noticed common English errors in the APOD text. It seems literacy has long been considered irrelevant to scientists and engineers. But as for the current discussion the matter is very simple: it less of one thing and fewer of a number of things.

casubellus

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by casubellus » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:44 pm

How about this "theory": there is a vast amount of nearly-impossible-to-detect MOLECULAR hydrogen in interstellar and inter-galactic space, which allows this type of star to form AND accounts for the (non existent) 'dark matter'. :)

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 18805
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by neufer » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:57 pm

orin stepanek wrote:
I would think to destroy the lithium; the star must of been in a state of fission instead of fusion!
:? That doesn't seem to work for me!
Image
Lithium citrate
Perhaps J102815 is just loaning its supply of lithium to
a nearby White Dwarf that is attempting to go all supernova on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_%28medication%29 wrote:
<<Lithium possesses a very important antisuicidal effect not shown
in other stabilizing medications such as antiseizures drugs.>>
Art Neuendorffer

nstahl
Science Officer
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:08 am

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by nstahl » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:01 pm

neuter thanks for pointing out so graphically the difference between "fewer metals" and "less metals", and the sense in which "less metals" can be considered correct here. And since it can be considered correct I really think the benefit of any doubt one has should go to the people who spend so much effort putting this up every day. And in this case if one has no doubt it's because one hasn't thought it through.

User avatar
bystander
Apathetic Retiree
Posts: 21027
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:06 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by bystander » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:18 pm

English Adept wrote:Whoever wrote this, if English is their first language, should be ashamed. :roll: The first sentence should read "...are seen to have some, although fewer, elements..." The second should be "...appears to have fewer metals..."
reedkantor wrote:thats "fewer"metals, not "less metals." grammar is important when writing...know the difference between the use of "fewer" and "less." muchas gracias.
Axel wrote:... it [is] less of one thing and fewer of a number of things.
We are talking about one thing, metals, a mass noun meaning elements heavier than hydrogen or helium. Substitute metallic content or metallicity, if you wish, but less is appropriate, not fewer.
Ann wrote:Well, as a non-native English speaker it seems to me that there might be a difference between "fewer metals" and "less metals". "Fewer metals" might mean that the spectrum of a star shows evidence of only, say, three elements apart from hydrogen and helium. "Less metals" might mean that the elements apart from hydrogen and helium exist in extremely low amounts.
English Adept wrote:Ann, that's not how it works. It's two different forms of the same meaning (fewer versus less). If the second meaning you suggest was intended, it should be stated as "lower amounts of metals", or something similar.
Actually, that's exactly how it works and Ann is correct in her interpretation. As stated above, metals, as used here, is a mass noun, much like water. The statement, "Because of the drought, there is fewer water in the lake." is absolutely nonsensical, yet that is the usage you advocate.
Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
alive to the gentle breeze of communication, and please stop being such a jerk.
— Garrison Keillor

User avatar
Iron Sun 254
Ensign
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:27 pm

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by Iron Sun 254 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:21 pm

mst66186 wrote:
APOD Robot wrote:... Furthermore, even the elusive never-seen first stars in the universe, so-called Population III stars, are predicted to have a large mass and a small but set amount of heavy elements. ...
Ummm... from following the links it seems that our sun would be a generation III star and these elusive never-seen first stars should be Population I?
Population I is is not a term for first generation stars but for the youngest generation. They were named in order of discovery so, since our Sun was obviously in the first group to be discovered, that group was designated Population I.

saturn2

Re: APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07

Post by saturn2 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:47 pm

The J 102815 star look like to human organism.
This star has 75% of H and 25% others elements.
The human organismo has 75% de H2O and 25% others elements.
J 102815 is a star that shoud not exist, but it exist.
I think that BIG BANG theory has many errors.
Other example of error of the Big Bang theory is the far explotion of object GRB 090423