APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
saturno2
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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by saturno2 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:23 pm

This is a strange image :?

TinMT

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by TinMT » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:42 pm

Why don't we plant a microbe/bacteria down in these holes to see if anything can live there? Or has this been tried?

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by Psnarf » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:57 pm

--
Obquote: "Holey Mars, Batman!" -Robin, Boy Wonder.

TinMT

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by TinMT » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:04 pm

Why don't we plant a microbe/bacteria down in these holes to see if anything can live there? Or has this been tried?

referman

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by referman » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:24 pm

It, looks like a sink hole where either water or some other erosion process is causing the small material above to gravitate towards the bottom and if it liquid water then there could be life on mars

referman

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by referman » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:32 pm

We cant put other microbes on mars the whole reason is to find alien life not to place known life there . whats the point if alien life cant grow there then more then likely known life forms wont grow .

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by eltodesukane » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:46 pm

MosselKots wrote:Found the other Mars pits I was talking about...

http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_009488_1745
and:
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003647_1745 / http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_004847_1745

these are even more mysterious (to me anyway), as they are too deep to see the botttoms...
mK
thanks for those references, very strange to see those dark (bottomless) pits...

DSK

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by DSK » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:58 pm

Looking forward to a stereo view of this. my impression is that this is like a huge funnel with a lot of very fine sand on top of it. For whatever reasonthe top of the cavern broke away in a circular fashion. A meteorite does not make sense. the odds are completely against a meteorite hitting precisely over a huge cavern. I would suspect that the grain size of the sand could be calculated from the angle of the funnel. Also looking at the floor inside the hoe there is a lighter color at the 7 o'clock postion. Makes me think that is the peak of the sand pile.

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by StarCuriousAero » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:29 pm

Why is it so white? Even as a black and white photo shouldn't the surface of mars be more greyish like other HiRISE images? Is it just a higher than normal albedo because it's a different type of sand with higher reflectivity? If so what type is that?

timo.vanuatu

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by timo.vanuatu » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:12 am

Exploring this cavern would be an engineering challenge. The closest thing I recognise on earth would be an ant lion trap - sand resting at angle of repose so that anything entering slides down the slope to its waiting jaws. I'd hate to think what Martian monster is lurking below if the hole is 35M across. Life on Mars - forget it!

rjgjr

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by rjgjr » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:25 am

Maybe the hole is a result of rising gas like methane - or some heat vent from within the planet. Otherwise it look like a ready made shelter - anyone want to go to mars?

calaverasgold

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by calaverasgold » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:12 pm

If you want an idea of the size of the open area in the immediate space below the hole simply calculate the volume of the material in the cone section in the crater above the hole, as it will be somewhat equal in volume to the material that has fallen into the hole. This volume of material may be very small in reality to the total amount that has fallen into the hole, as the visual evidence indicate the material surrounding the hole on the crater wall may be very loose and comprised of aeolian sand and/or dust/dirt. If this is the case the fill material could be extremely mobile. The interior of the hole has an unknown depth and contour. If it is more than a settling basin from either solution removal of materials in times past, an volcanic anomaly or a tectonic fracture feature the open space could be immense or slight. What is the angle on Mars for a free flowing slope of loose material with Martian gravity? Is there an earlier picture of this anomaly showing its existence? Do we have any data on the rate of movement of dust/soil in the area from wind? The size of the open area under this (leak) could be very different in size and shape than initially anticipated. This anomaly bears close scrutiny as it could be a lot more important than first realized.

kindest regards, David RamczykII calaverasgold@aol.com

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by Spectre1129 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:08 pm

What causes sinkholes to form on Earth? Usually it is running water (a water main break for instance). I am not sure :oops: of the surface (or sub surface) temperature profile on Mars, but if it was a cavern, then it "may" have been created by running water (provided the subsurface temperature and pressure allowed the liquid phase of water - again I don't know :oops: )... These are questions which would be fun to find the answer to. Come on NASA!!! APOD is my home page and so it shall remain...

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by BMAONE23 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:12 pm

timo.vanuatu wrote:Exploring this cavern would be an engineering challenge. The closest thing I recognise on earth would be an ant lion trap - sand resting at angle of repose so that anything entering slides down the slope to its waiting jaws. I'd hate to think what Martian monster is lurking below if the hole is 35M across. Life on Mars - forget it!
I don't see it as a very challenging task. All that is needed is a Lander with a rover that can relocate itself from the landing site to the crater site. And a lighter than air craft like this that is carried by and controlled by the rover. All it needs is a power source, light and camera attached and a means to communicate with the rover.

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by neufer » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:51 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:
timo.vanuatu wrote:
Exploring this cavern would be an engineering challenge. The closest thing I recognise on earth would be an ant lion trap - sand resting at angle of repose so that anything entering slides down the slope to its waiting jaws. I'd hate to think what Martian monster is lurking below if the hole is 35M across. Life on Mars - forget it!
I don't see it as a very challenging task. All that is needed is a Lander with a rover that can relocate itself from the landing site to the crater site. And a lighter than air craft like this that is carried by and controlled by the rover. All it needs is a power source, light and camera attached and a means to communicate with the rover.
  • Oh. that should turn out well :!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_%28film%29 wrote:
<<In 2089, archaeologist couple Elizabeth Shaw and Charlie Holloway discover in Scotland a star map matching that of several unconnected ancient cultures. They interpret this as an invitation from humanity's forerunners, the "Engineers". Peter Weyland, the elderly CEO of Weyland Corporation, funds the creation of the scientific vessel Prometheus to follow the map to the distant moon LV-223. The ship's crew travels in stasis while the android David monitors their voyage. Arriving in 2093, they are informed of their mission to find the Engineers. Mission director Meredith Vickers orders them to avoid making contact without her permission. The Prometheus lands near a large artificial structure, which a team explores. Inside they find numerous stone cylinders, a monolithic statue of a humanoid head, and the corpse of a large alien, thought to be an Engineer. They find other bodies and presume the species is extinct. David secretly takes a cylinder, while the remaining cylinders begin leaking dark liquid. A rapidly approaching storm forces the crew to return to Prometheus, leaving members Millburn and Fifield stranded in the structure. In the ship, the Engineer's DNA is found to match that of humans. Meanwhile, David investigates the cylinder and discovers a dark liquid. He then taints a drink with the substance and gives it to Holloway. Shortly after, Shaw and Holloway have sex.

Inside the structure, a snake-like creature kills Millburn, and sprays a corrosive fluid that melts Fifield's helmet, exposing him to the leaking dark liquid. The crew later returns to the structure and finds Millburn's corpse. David separately discovers a control room containing a surviving Engineer in stasis, and a star map highlighting Earth. Holloway's ingestion of the dark liquid leads to an infection that rapidly ravages his body. He is rushed back to Prometheus, but Vickers refuses to let him aboard, and at his urging, burns him to death with a flamethrower. Later, a medical scan reveals that Shaw, despite being sterile, is pregnant with an alien offspring. Shaw uses an automated surgery table to extract and subdue the squid-like creature.
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by walfy » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:19 am

Perhaps there was a thick layer of ice under there at first, then the meteor punched through the soil and exposed it. The ice subsequently sublimated (evaporated), leaving the cavern below.

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by neufer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:20 am

walfy wrote:
Perhaps there was a thick layer of ice under there at first, then the meteor punched through the soil and exposed it. The ice subsequently sublimated (evaporated), leaving the cavern below.
  • But it is sitting on a VOLCANO :!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lava_tube wrote: <<Lava tubes are natural conduits through which lava travels beneath the surface of a lava flow, expelled by a volcano during an eruption. They can be actively draining lava from a source, or can be extinct, meaning the lava flow has ceased and the rock has cooled and left a long, cave-like channel.

Scientific evidence suggests the moon has many lava tubes and one location in particular, the Marius Hills, has been proposed as being suitable location for a human colony

Lava tubes are a type of lava cave formed when an active low-viscosity lava flow develops a continuous and hard crust, which thickens and forms a roof above the still-flowing lava stream. Tubes form in one of two ways: by the crusting over of lava channels, and from pahoehoe flows where the lava is moving under the surface. Lava usually leaves the point of eruption in channels. These channels tend to stay very hot as their surroundings cool. This means they slowly develop walls around them as the surrounding lava cools and/or as the channel melts its way deeper. These channels can get deep enough to crust over, forming an insulating tube that keeps the lava molten and serves as a conduit for the flowing lava. These types of lava tubes tend to be closer to the lava eruption point.

Further away from the eruption point, lava can flow in an unchanneled, fanlike manner as it leaves its source, which is usually another lava tube leading back to the eruption point. Called pahoehoe flows, these areas of surface-moving lava cool, forming either a smooth or rough, ropy surface. The lava continues to flow this way until it begins to block its source. At this point, the subsurface lava is still hot enough to break out at a point, and from this point the lava begins as a new "source". Lava flows from the previous source to this breakout point as the surrounding lava of the pahoehoe flow cools. This forms an underground channel that becomes a lava tube.

A broad lava-flow field often consists of a main lava tube and a series of smaller tubes that supply lava to the front of one or more separate flows. When the supply of lava stops at the end of an eruption or lava is diverted elsewhere, lava in the tube system drains downslope and leaves partially empty cave-like conduits beneath the ground.

Such drained tubes commonly exhibit step marks on their walls that mark the various depths at which the lava flowed, known as flow ledges or flow lines depending on how prominently they protrude from the walls. Lava tubes generally have pahoehoe floors, although this may often be covered in breakdown from the ceiling. A variety of speleothems may be found in lava tubes including a variety of stalactite forms generally known as lavacicles, which can be of the splash, shark tooth, or tubular variety. Lavacicles are the most common of lava tube speleothems. Drip stalagmites may form under tubular lava stalactites, and the latter may grade into a form known as a tubular lava helictite. A runner is a bead of lava that extrudes from a small opening and then runs down a wall. Lava tubes may also contain mineral deposits that most commonly take the form of crusts or small crystals, and less commonly, as stalactites and stalagmites.>>
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by NoelC » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:37 am

Most people look at this in wonder.

State Farm execs look at this and think: "Note to self: Exclude sinkholes in future Mars policies"

-Noel

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by Neutrino » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:47 am

Looks like it was asteroid with dry ice in the core.

quigley

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by quigley » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:41 am

I am currently reading WARLORD OF MARS (Second book in the John Carter of Mars series) by Edgar Rice Burroughs. The author writes (around 100 years ago) about a hole in the crust of Barsoom (Mars) as being the entrance to the underground city of the First Borns. Has anyone else read this great sci fi series?

sky

Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by sky » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:15 am

Looks like water to me. I can see a reflection. Probably melted snow from the volcano.

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by Chris Peterson » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:29 pm

sky wrote:Looks like water to me. I can see a reflection. Probably melted snow from the volcano.
The combination of air pressure and temperature at the Martian surface doesn't allow liquid water to exist except very transiently. Water can only be present as a gas or solid.
Chris

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Re: APOD: A Hole in Mars (2012 Jul 18)

Post by johnlbee » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:35 pm

Looks like an abandoned dwarf fortress to me.

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Sea Level on Mars!

Post by neufer » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:48 pm

sky wrote:
Looks like water to me. I can see a reflection. Probably melted snow from the volcano.
Chris Peterson wrote:
The combination of air pressure and temperature at the Martian surface doesn't allow liquid water to exist except very transiently. Water can only be present as a gas or solid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_%28molecule%29 wrote:
<<The temperature and pressure at which solid, liquid, and gaseous water coexist in equilibrium is called the triple point of water. This point is used to define the units of temperature. The triple point is at a temperature of 273.16 K (0.01 °C) by convention, and at a pressure of 611.73 Pa. This pressure is quite low, about 1⁄166 of the normal sea level barometric pressure of 101,325 Pa. The atmospheric surface pressure on planet Mars is remarkably close to the triple point pressure, and the zero-elevation or "sea level" of Mars is defined by the height at which the atmospheric pressure corresponds to the triple point of water.>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_on_Mars#Liquid_water wrote:
<<Liquid water cannot exist on the surface of Mars with its present low atmospheric pressure, except at the lowest elevations for short periods. Recently, the discovery of gully deposits that were not seen ten years ago provided evidence to support the popular belief that liquid water flowed on the surface in the recent past. Recent images have also detected yearly changes on some slopes that may have been caused by liquid water. Although Mars is very cold at present, water could exist as a liquid if it contains salts. Salt is expected to be on the Martian surface.>>
Art Neuendorffer