APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

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APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by APOD Robot » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:10 am

Image Icelandic Legends and Aurora

Explanation: Legends collide in this dramatic vista of land, sea, and sky. The land is Iceland, specifically V�k � M�rdal, a southern village known for its beautiful black sand beaches. The sea, the Atlantic Ocean, surrounds Reynisdrangar, a sea stack of eroded basaltic rock pillars that Icelandic folklore tells are the petrified remains of trolls once attempting to drag a three-masted ship onto land. Watching from overhead and shining bright on the upper right is the god of the sky, according to Greek mythology: the planet Jupiter. Also visible in the sky are several other Greek legends encapsulated as constellations, including a lion (Leo), a big bear (Ursa Major), and a water snake (Hydra). One might guess that all of this commotion caused the spectacular aurora pictured -- but really it was just explosions from the Sun.

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by saturno2 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:31 am

Interesting image

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by daddyo » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:20 am

Unmatched in filmmaking even

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:47 pm

It's a fake picture, composite made of 2 completely different pictures.

I think note should be added to this picture stating that this is a composite, not realistic picture as one of the goals of APOD website is education and that picture may cause confusion. Imagine somebody will travel to Iceland from Europe or US to replicate this shot, spending a lot of money and on site he will realize that this is physically not possible.

I am aurora hunter myself and I often travel to scenic locations to get nice aurora shots selecting locations on other hunters pictures and there is more people like me.
I've been to Vik few times and I new straight away that this is composite picture as I am also a stargazer and amateur astronomer and astrophotographer and I knew that making this picture is not possible, but many other people will not. For that reason I think note should be added to the picture to spare people trouble and expenses, as many may attempt to replicate this shot.

Here is a plan of the shot proving my point.
Image

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:10 pm

spider72 wrote:Here is a plan of the shot proving my point.
I agree that the location you have marked is where the shot was taken, and that the camera direction was as indicated. Why do you assume an incorrect star field, however? From that location, looking southeast a few hours before dawn, Virgo is central, Ursa Major is high overhead... in fact, what you see is exactly what is shown. What assumption did you make about the date and time to conclude you'd see this field towards the north?
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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by neufer » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:26 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki wrote:
[img3=""The Punishment of Loki" by Louis Huard (1813-1874)"]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... f_Loki.jpg[/img3]
<<Loki's origins and role in Norse mythology, which some scholars have described as that of a trickster god, have been much debated by scholars. In various poems Loki is alternately referred to as Loptr, which is generally considered derived from Old Norse lopt meaning "air", and therefore points to an association with the air.

Loki sometimes assists the gods and sometimes behaves in a malicious manner towards them. Loki is a shape shifter and in separate incidents he appears in the form of a salmon, a mare, a seal, a fly, and possibly an elderly woman named Þökk (Old Norse 'thanks'). Loki's positive relations with the gods end with his role in engineering the death of the god Baldr and Loki is eventually bound by the gods with the entrails of one of his sons. In both the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda, the goddess Skaði is responsible for placing a serpent above him while he is bound. The serpent drips venom from above him that Sigyn collects into a bowl; however, she must empty the bowl when it is full, and the venom that drips in the meantime causes Loki to writhe in pain, thereby causing earthquakes.>>
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:05 pm

Hi Chris.

I've concluded direction for night sky part of the shot solely based on the North Star (Polaris) position which is fixed and it does not matter what time of the year it was or what time of the night. Polaris is not visible in the frame but you can extrapolate its position using The Plough asterism which is visible, therefore approximate camera direction which I have indicated on my sketch must be correct.

As I've mentioned before, I am an aurora hunter and I visited Vic 4 times that's why I've noticed that this picture is wrong almost immediately after I've seen it.

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:10 pm

spider72 wrote:Hi Chris.

I've concluded direction for night sky part of the shot solely based on the North Star (Polaris) position which is fixed and it does not matter what time of the year it was or what time of the night. Polaris is not visible in the frame but you can extrapolate its position using The Plough asterism which is visible, therefore approximate camera direction which I have indicated on my sketch must be correct.
You need to reconsider the sky, and the nature of photographic projections. Polaris is "above" Ursa Major in this view, that's true. But that's because if you keep going "up" in the image, you cross the zenith and continue back down towards the northern horizon. Polaris is behind the camera.

This sky view is precisely what you will see from that location, at this time of year, before dawn, looking southeast.
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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:31 pm

Unfortunately, I've been there and I do not agree Chris.
If you will extrapolate position of the Polaris in the picture, it will be roughly over the left edge of the frame. So to take shot like this, with sea stacks (rocks) more or less in the center of the frame would require lens with field of view over 180 degrees (refer to the shot plan above). Only fisheye lenses can achieve that and this was not shot with fisheye lens because there is no fisheye distortions in the picture, which would be severe taking into account how low the horizon is in the shot. Extreme wide angle lens (say 14mm) on full frame camera has FOV just over 100 degree.

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:44 pm

Furthermore, have you ever seen The Plough asterism over the Soth-East horizon Chris ? I don't think so, and that where it is in that shot if you agree that rocks in the sea are to the south-east from the camera position.

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:57 pm

spider72 wrote:Unfortunately, I've been there and I do not agree Chris.
If you will extrapolate position of the Polaris in the picture, it will be roughly over the left edge of the frame. So to take shot like this, with sea stacks (rocks) more or less in the center of the frame would require lens with field of view over 180 degrees (refer to the shot plan above). Only fisheye lenses can achieve that and this was not shot with fisheye lens because there is no fisheye distortions in the picture, which would be severe taking into account how low the horizon is in the shot. Extreme wide angle lens (say 14mm) on full frame camera has FOV just over 100 degree.
All I can say is that you're mistaken (and having been there or not is irrelevant). Any sky simulation program will demonstrate that this image accurately shows the view to the southeast on early winter mornings. This is Stellarium's view of the SE sky from the southern coast of Iceland on December 3, before dawn.
ise.PNG
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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:59 pm

spider72 wrote:Furthermore, have you ever seen The Plough asterism over the Soth-East horizon Chris ? I don't think so, and that where it is in that shot if you agree that rocks in the sea are to the south-east from the camera position.
From my latitude, no. But from Iceland? Ursa Major can most certainly be on the south side of the zenith, which means it can show up at the top of an image made facing southeast.
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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:37 pm

I think something is wrong with your Stellarium Chris.

Below is a view of the night sky from Vic location (63.418348, -18.987233) for the date which you have stated, so discrepancy between landmarks and night sky is roughly about 90 deg as indicated on the shot plan.
You may fool others but you can't fool me I live quite far north (58deg N, 3deg E) and my night sky is not much different from that at the south of Iceland.
And for the 3rd time - I've been in Vic few times and I know the setup and location of the place.

Image

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by daddyo » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:38 pm

Has anyone ever raced out toward the poles after hearing about a coronal mass ejection? Looked like you have 13 hours to many days to get there, if you learned about it right away and that it was heading to Earth.

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:44 pm

Here is is again with constellations names and lines for clearer view.

This picture is a composite fake and you will never see view like this in real world.

Image

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by geckzilla » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:47 pm

spider72 wrote:I think something is wrong with your Stellarium Chris.

Below is a view of the night sky from Vic location (63.418348, -18.987233) for the date which you have stated, so discrepancy between landmarks and night sky is roughly about 90 deg as indicated on the shot plan.
You may fool others but you can't fool me I live quite far north (58deg N, 3deg E) and my night sky is not much different from that at the south of Iceland.
And for the 3rd time - I've been in Vic few times and I know the setup and location of the place.

Image
The date Chris gave is wrong. Set the date to 2015 March 15. I set my time to about 1800 to annotate the image. Local time zone might mean your time is different.
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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:59 pm

geckzilla.
It can't be from March if Jupiter is in the frame.

But here we go, night sky from Vic on 15 March 2015 below, still 90 degree discrepancy between sky and landscape and picture is still composite fake.

Image

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:03 pm

geckzilla wrote:The date Chris gave is wrong. Set the date to 2015 March 15. I set my time to about 1800 to annotate the image. Local time zone might mean your time is different.
Yeah, I was trying to work out the date for the position of Jupiter. I really hate Stellarium and the way it handles times, but I had it handy.
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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by geckzilla » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:07 pm

spider72 wrote:geckzilla.
It can't be from March if Jupiter is in the frame.

But here we go, night sky from Vic on 15 March 2015 below, still 90 degree discrepancy between sky and landscape and picture is still composite fake.

Image
You need to point it south east, of course. The photo is more accurate than you are.
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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:24 pm

?
South-East are completely different constellations than on the picture. That's the point and proof, that this pictures is a composite with the 90 degree discrepancy between landscape and night sky.
This picture is as true as the mythological stories below it :).

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:27 pm

The Plough asterism can never be seen over south-east horizon from Iceland, you may try all the dates in Stellarium you want. The plough always can be seen from iceland between North-East and North-West horizon. It will never reach even East or West not to mention South-East as on this faked picture.

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by gmPhil » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:29 pm

Does anyone know what that rectangular formation in the rock at lower left of the photo is?

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by geckzilla » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:30 pm

spider72 wrote:?
South-East are completely different constellations than on the picture. That's the point and proof, that this pictures is a composite with the 90 degree discrepancy between landscape and night sky.
This picture is as true as the mythological stories below it :).
You want this to be fake so badly that you've botched your own evidence. Using your coordinates and the correct date, this is the view southeast. You need to open your mind to the simple fact that you are wrong.
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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by spider72 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:35 pm

Oh really ? Can you see The Plough over the South-East horizon there ?

This picture is a fake without a doubt.

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Re: APOD: Icelandic Legends and Aurora (2015 Dec 08)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:43 pm

spider72 wrote:If you will extrapolate position of the Polaris in the picture, it will be roughly over the left edge of the frame. So to take shot like this, with sea stacks (rocks) more or less in the center of the frame would require lens with field of view over 180 degrees (refer to the shot plan above). Only fisheye lenses can achieve that and this was not shot with fisheye lens because there is no fisheye distortions in the picture, which would be severe taking into account how low the horizon is in the shot. Extreme wide angle lens (say 14mm) on full frame camera has FOV just over 100 degree.
You can measure the FOV from the star field. Horizontally, it's about 90°. That's just what you'd get with an 18mm lens on a full frame sensor. 18mm is not considered fisheye, and it's one of the most common kit lenses that come with DSLRs.
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