APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

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APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by APOD Robot » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:17 am

Image Geostationary Highway through Orion

Explanation: Put a satellite in a circular orbit about 42,000 kilometers from the center of the Earth and it will orbit once in 24 hours. Because that matches Earth's rotation period, it is known as a geosynchronous orbit. If that orbit is also in the plane of the equator, the satellite will hang in the sky over a fixed location in a geostationary orbit. As predicted in the 1940s by futurist Arthur C. Clarke, geostationary orbits are in common use for communication and weather satellites, a scenario now well-known to astroimagers. Deep images of the night sky made with telescopes that follow the stars can also pick up geostationary satellites glinting in sunlight still shining far above the Earth's surface. Because they all move with the Earth's rotation against the background of stars, the satellites leave trails that seem to follow a highway across the celestial landscape. The phenomenon was captured last month in this video showing several satellites in geostationary orbit crossing the famous Orion Nebula.

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by nthpijots » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:46 am

Didn't Clarke predict that we'd need as many as three geostationary satellites to service the whole planet? True in theory, but we ended up with a few more than that! :-)

heehaw

Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by heehaw » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:07 am

Marvelous!


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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by Alietr » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:36 pm

How much time is this showing?

BjoernH

Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by BjoernH » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:08 pm

Well, I captured an extremely simlar animation end of November and published it a month ago, two weeks before the APOD winner captured his image series. Seems he got "inspired" by me, and blatantly copied my work. Nearly the same viewfield, same processing, same "feeling", similar exposure, etc. A little bit own creativity would have made it unique, but this is pure copying. He even used my wording (highway)!
Here is my original, if you are interested: http://www.astrobin.com/276520/B/

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by RedFishBlueFish » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:38 pm

BjoernH wrote:Well, I captured an extremely simlar animation end of November and published it a month ago, two weeks before the APOD winner captured his image series. Seems he got "inspired" by me, and blatantly copied my work. Nearly the same viewfield, same processing, same "feeling", similar exposure, etc. A little bit own creativity would have made it unique, but this is pure copying. He even used my wording (highway)!
Here is my original, if you are interested: http://www.astrobin.com/276520/B/
As a non-astronomer, one has no way of knowing which series of images was made first.

However, the close similarity of both the subject matter and of its presentation certainly leads one to believe that one sprang from an original vision in the mind of the astrophotographer and the other is but an unattributed copy of the resulting work.

Interesting - as would be a comment from APOD.

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by neufer » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:50 pm

nthpijots wrote:
Didn't Clarke predict that we'd need as many as three geostationary satellites to service the whole planet? True in theory, but we ended up with a few more than that! :-)
  • Three geostationary satellites can service most of our planet.

    Polar regions above 71º latitude between satellites are out of reach
    and no geostationary satellite can see above 81º latitude.
https://www.usap.gov/technology/contenthandler.cfm?id=1935 wrote:
<<Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station uses [non-geostationary] communications satellites that serve as relay stations, receiving radio signals from one location and transmitting them to another. The United States Antarctic Program utilizes the satellites for the transfer of South Pole science, operational, and weather data, as well as Internet, telephone, and email services. South Pole satellite schedule forecasts are published weekly on Tuesdays, with updates made throughout the week to adjust service times.>>
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by BjoernH » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:59 pm

As a non-astronomer, one has no way of knowing which series of images was made first.

However, the close similarity of both the subject matter and of its presentation certainly leads one to believe that one sprang from an original vision in the mind of the astrophotographer and the other is but an unattributed copy of the resulting work.

Interesting - as would be a comment from APOD.
The APOD youtube video description says that it was captured on December 30th 2016, four weeks after my capture and two weeks after my publication on various channels (Astrobin, Facebook, Twitter).

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by JohnD » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:07 pm

I hope we are not heading for another Leibnitz versus Newton spat here! "Simultaneous discovery" of significant science is common enough for a large Wiki list of such events: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... iscoveries.

Today, the two or more originators share their Nobel, as did McDonald and Kajita in '15 for the mass of the neutrino. But I have to say, Bjoern, your excellent work is not in the queue.
John

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by bystander » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:18 pm

BjoernH wrote:Well, I captured an extremely simlar animation end of November and published it a month ago, two weeks before the APOD winner captured his image series. Seems he got "inspired" by me, and blatantly copied my work. Nearly the same viewfield, same processing, same "feeling", similar exposure, etc. A little bit own creativity would have made it unique, but this is pure copying. He even used my wording (highway)!

Here is my original, if you are interested: http://www.astrobin.com/276520/B/
APOD Robot wrote:... this video showing several satellites in geostationary orbit ...
Observing Geostationary Satellites
BjoernH, you are not the first to have done this. It's really not all that unique.
Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
alive to the gentle breeze of communication, and please stop being such a jerk.
— Garrison Keillor

BjoernH

Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by BjoernH » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:34 pm

JohnD wrote:I hope we are not heading for another Leibnitz versus Newton spat here! "Simultaneous discovery" of significant science is common enough for a large Wiki list of such events: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... iscoveries.

Today, the two or more originators share their Nobel, as did McDonald and Kajita in '15 for the mass of the neutrino. But I have to say, Bjoern, your excellent work is not in the queue.
John
Well, I would never call it science, but art. The way of capturing it, and then finding out that some guy reproduced your exact way and got an APOD, is pretty frustrating.

bystander wrote: BjoernH, you are not the first to have done this. It's really not all that unique.
I know that I didn't find some new way of satellite capture, but it is pretty obvious that my work, published two weeks before the APOD capture, was used as inspiration. Now it becomes questionable, how original this APOD really is. Also, just some mentioning of my work as inspiration would stop me from being so angry.

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by geckzilla » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:39 pm

That's funny, because someone else I know also captured the same thing on Jan. 2nd. Only he is not accusing anyone of anything, as far as I know! Orion is a popular target, and it's also overrun by satellites, so anyone capturing Orion is going to run into these satellites.
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by MarkBour » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:55 pm

BjoernH wrote:Well, I would never call it science, but art. The way of capturing it, and then finding out that some guy reproduced your exact way and got an APOD, is pretty frustrating.
Yes, given that it's not like a discovery, I can't guess how the editors of APOD will react. But I can certainly understand your feelings. At least I'll say thank you for pointing out your astrobin posting. Looking at your work, it is very nice.
Mark Goldfain

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by Visual_Astronomer » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:04 pm

I remember the first time I saw this phenomenon. I was looking closely at the Trapezium cluster in the Orion Nebula when I noticed a faint, star-like object slowly moving through the field of view. At first I was certain I had spotted a UFO, but then I realized that I was seeing a geosynchronous satellite that only appeared to be moving because I was tracking the nebula!

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:32 pm

Visual_Astronomer wrote:I remember the first time I saw this phenomenon. I was looking closely at the Trapezium cluster in the Orion Nebula when I noticed a faint, star-like object slowly moving through the field of view. At first I was certain I had spotted a UFO, but then I realized that I was seeing a geosynchronous satellite that only appeared to be moving because I was tracking the nebula!
Yeah, me too. I've seen this many times over at least 20 years. It's pretty common to catch both geostationary and geosynchronous satellites when imaging around Orion. We've had past APODs that showed this, and lots of discussion in this forum over the years about the phenomenon.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by geckzilla » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:47 pm

BjoernH wrote:Well, I captured an extremely simlar animation end of November and published it a month ago, two weeks before the APOD winner captured his image series. Seems he got "inspired" by me, and blatantly copied my work. Nearly the same viewfield, same processing, same "feeling", similar exposure, etc. A little bit own creativity would have made it unique, but this is pure copying. He even used my wording (highway)!
Here is my original, if you are interested: http://www.astrobin.com/276520/B/
Just FYI, James DeYoung didn't write the APOD description. The APOD editor did. It is possible that he saw your work and was inspired, but it's also entirely possible that he came up with the description on his own. It is quite easy to look at the lights streaking by busily and think of cars at night on a highway. I would suggest giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and getting over your own ego.
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by drjhammond » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:11 pm

The commenter, BjoernH, posting earlier has, in fact, a higher quality video posted at the link he provided. I couple of years ago I made a similar time lapse and image stack inspired by an image I saw long ago in an astronomy magazine. One interesting observation is that the "highway" appears higher in Orion in DeYoung's image than in mine. The celestial equator passes very near Mintaka, the western most star in Orion's belt, and observations of the geostationary satellites from the equator would show the satellites much closer to the celestial equator. Though I don't know where DeYoung was located, I know he was south of where I am in Central Oregon. BjoernH is not far from my latitude of ~44.5 degN, I believe. My stack showing the "highway" can be seen here: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/phot ... YaL0ZWE3wE

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by neufer » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:12 pm

geckzilla wrote:
BjoernH wrote:
Well, I captured an extremely simlar animation end of November and published it a month ago, two weeks before the APOD winner captured his image series. Seems he got "inspired" by me, and blatantly copied my work. Nearly the same viewfield, same processing, same "feeling", similar exposure, etc. A little bit own creativity would have made it unique, but this is pure copying. He even used my wording (highway)!
Here is my original, if you are interested: http://www.astrobin.com/276520/B/
Just FYI, James DeYoung didn't write the APOD description. The APOD editor did. It is possible that he saw your work and was inspired, but it's also entirely possible that he came up with the description on his own.
Perhaps everyone was inspired by an earlier APOD:

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100220.html

http://twanight.org/newTWAN/case.asp
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by geckzilla » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:28 pm

neufer wrote:
geckzilla wrote:
BjoernH wrote:
Well, I captured an extremely simlar animation end of November and published it a month ago, two weeks before the APOD winner captured his image series. Seems he got "inspired" by me, and blatantly copied my work. Nearly the same viewfield, same processing, same "feeling", similar exposure, etc. A little bit own creativity would have made it unique, but this is pure copying. He even used my wording (highway)!
Here is my original, if you are interested: http://www.astrobin.com/276520/B/
Just FYI, James DeYoung didn't write the APOD description. The APOD editor did. It is possible that he saw your work and was inspired, but it's also entirely possible that he came up with the description on his own.
Perhaps everyone was inspired by an earlier APOD:

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100220.html

http://twanight.org/newTWAN/case.asp
Good point.
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by De58te » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:10 am

If a satellite is in geostationary orbit over the equator which means it orbits at the same speed as the Earth then that means it hangs over the same spot in the sky. If the apparent motion of the Orion Nebula is from bottom to top in the video wouldn't the satellite be going from top to bottom? Since that is the motion of the Earth. Orion doesn't go north to south in the sky, it goes east to west. So the satellite would go opposite of Orion's direction. But in the video they are going at right angles to Earth's rotation?

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:41 am

De58te wrote:If a satellite is in geostationary orbit over the equator which means it orbits at the same speed as the Earth then that means it hangs over the same spot in the sky. If the apparent motion of the Orion Nebula is from bottom to top in the video wouldn't the satellite be going from top to bottom? Since that is the motion of the Earth. Orion doesn't go north to south in the sky, it goes east to west. So the satellite would go opposite of Orion's direction. But in the video they are going at right angles to Earth's rotation?
The image was made with a telescope that compensates for the rotation of the Earth, by tracking on the stars. The slight motion of the stars and nebula in the up and down direction are a consequence of imperfect tracking. In this image, north is up and east is to the left. That means that the right ascension axis (which is aligned with Earth's rotation) is left and right, and declination is up and down. Declination drift like this is normally a symptom of poor polar alignment with an equatorial telescope mount. Actually, to be precise, up is 5° off of true north, which is why the satellites cross the screen at a slight angle, rather than perfectly horizontally. Also, some of these satellites are not in perfect geostationary orbits, which gives them a slight drift up or down depending on where they are in their orbit.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by JohnD » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:58 am

I suggested that Bjoern consider the history of multiple discoverers, and invoked the Newton/Leibnitz controversy as a warning from that history. But perhaps he should console himself with Newton's own words, "If I have seen further than others, it was because I was standing on the shoulders of giants". If the bitterly contentious Newton could accept that in the history of ideas we all are in debt to those who go before, surely you can, Bjoern?

John

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by BjoernH » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:16 am

Hey folks,

after a night of sleep, I am a little bit more relaxed, but my concerns are still alive. I knew about the 2010 APOD and if you look at it, it's much different to my version. I never stated that I was the first one capturing the satellite trails in an animation. It's about all those artistic details: viewfield, composition, framing, exposure times, animation speed, image processing. If you keep all these things in mind, the APOD looks surprisingly similar to my version. It could be a huge coincidence that he captured nearly the same region and chose to process it in the exact same way as I did it (do you want to know how many steps the processing involved??)
So when I say he copied my idea, then I mean he reproduced what I did, to the finest detail. And once he did that, he lacks originality. I don't want to question the APOD decision to chose this video, but I want to raise concerns about how people blatantly copy others processing routines to the detail, without mentioning the original work.

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Re: APOD: Geostationary Highway through Orion (2017 Jan 16)

Post by RedFishBlueFish » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:17 pm

BjoernH
"...but I want to raise concerns about how people blatantly copy others processing routines to the detail, without mentioning the original work."
Precisely correct.

Sadly, such considerations are likely to disappear in the puerile post-factual world we seem to be entering.