APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

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APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by APOD Robot » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:05 am

Image IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas and Dust

Explanation: In the constellation of the swan near the nebula of the pelican lies the gas cloud of the butterfly next to a star known as the hen. That star, given the proper name Sadr, is just to the right of the featured frame, but the central Butterfly Nebula, designated IC 1318, is shown in high resolution. The intricate patterns in the bright gas and dark dust are caused by complex interactions between interstellar winds, radiation pressures, magnetic fields, and gravity. The featured telescopic view captures IC 1318's characteristic emission from ionized sulfur, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms mapped to the red, green, and blue hues of the popular Hubble Palette. The portion of the Butterfly Nebula pictured spans about 100 light years and lies about 4000 light years away.

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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by VictorBorun » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:21 am

dusty magnetic protuberances 100 ly long, cool

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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by De58te » Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:53 am

I can't help but think. If the Hubble Palette was specifically described as popular, then by reasoning there must also be an unpopular telescope palette. I wonder which telescope that could be?

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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by orin stepanek » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:29 pm

IC1318_Pham_960.jpg

Darling; why do I get butterflies!

download.jpg
Butterflies have a lot of color, weather on Earth or in a nebula! :D 8-)
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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by neufer » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:12 pm

orin stepanek wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:29 pm
Butterflies have a lot of color, weather [sic] on Earth or in a nebula!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sound_of_Thunder wrote:
"A Sound of Thunder" is a science fiction short story by American writer Ray Bradbury, first published in Collier's magazine in the June 28, 1952, issue and later in Bradbury's collection The Golden Apples of the Sun in 1953.
--------------------------------------------
In the year 2055, time travel has become a practical reality, and the company Time Safari Inc. offers wealthy adventurers the chance to travel back in time to hunt extinct species such as dinosaurs. A hunter named Eckels pays $10,000 to join a hunting party that will travel back 66 million years to the Late Cretaceous period, on a guided safari to kill a Tyrannosaurus rex. As the party waits to depart, they discuss the recent presidential elections in which an apparently fascist candidate, Deutscher, has been defeated by his opponent Keith, to the relief of many concerned. When the party arrives in the past, Travis (the hunting guide) and Lesperance (Travis's assistant) warn Eckels and the two other hunters, Billings and Kramer, about the necessity of minimizing the events they change before they go back, since even the smallest alterations to the distant past could snowball into catastrophic changes in history. Travis explains that the hunters are obliged to stay on a levitating path to avoid disrupting the environment, that any deviation will be punished with hefty fines, and that prior to the hunt, Time Safari scouts had been sent back to select and tag their prey, which would have died within minutes anyway, and whose death has been calculated to have minimal effect on the future.

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Although Eckels is initially excited about the hunt, when the monstrous Tyrannosaurus approaches, he loses his nerve. Travis tells him to go back to the time machine, but Eckels panics, steps off the path, and stumbles into the forest. Eckels hears shots, and on his return, he sees that the two guides have killed the dinosaur, and shortly afterward the falling tree that would have killed the T. rex has landed on top of it. Realizing that Eckels has fallen off the path, Travis threatens to leave him in the past unless he removes the bullets from the dinosaur's body, as they cannot be left behind. Eckels obeys, but Travis remains furious, threatening on the return trip to shoot him.

Upon returning to 2055, Eckels notices subtle changes: English words are now spelled and spoken strangely, people behave differently, and Eckels discovers that Trum Deutscher has won the election instead of Bide Keith. Looking at the mud on his boots, Eckels finds a crushed butterfly, whose death has apparently caused a rift in the timeline that has affected the nature of the alternative present to which the safari has returned. He frantically pleads with Travis to take him back into the past to undo the damage, but Travis had previously explained that the time machine cannot return to any point in time that it has already visited (so as to prevent any paradoxes). Travis raises his gun, and there is "a sound of thunder."

--------------------------------------------
"A Sound of Thunder" is often credited as the origin of the term "butterfly effect", a concept of chaos theory in which the flapping of a butterfly's wings in one part of the world could create a hurricane on the opposite side of the globe. The term was actually introduced by meteorologist Edward Norton Lorenz in the 1960s. However, Bradbury's concept of how the death of a butterfly in the past could have drastic changes in the future is a representation of the butterfly effect, and used as an example of how to consider chaos theory and the physics of time travel.>>
Last edited by neufer on Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by DL MARTIN » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:14 pm

In the caption for today's APOD the term light years was highlighted. When one goes to this reference, the idea that entities are not simply distant but also back in time is stated. Would someone please explain why that argument is stupid as one described me when I made it?

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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by bystander » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:34 pm

De58te wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:53 am
I can't help but think. If the Hubble Palette was specifically described as popular, then by reasoning there must also be an unpopular telescope palette. I wonder which telescope that could be?

Palette really has nothing to do with a particular telescope but with the colors assigned to filter bandwidths. The "Hubble Palette", also known as SHO, (Sulfur, Hydrogen, and Oxygen), assigns colors to specific narrow bandwidths: red to ionized sulfur (S-II, 672 nm), green to hydrogen alpha (Hɑ, 656 nm), and blue to ionized oxygen (O-II, 456 nm). Although this specific palette was first popularized with images from Hubble, it can be applied to images in those wave bands from any telescope. The original grayscale images for each narrow band are colorized and merged.

See Narrowband Imaging Beginners Guide and Hubble's Color Toolbox
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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by Ann » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:43 pm

orin stepanek wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:29 pm IC1318_Pham_960.jpg


Darling; why do I get butterflies!


download.jpg

Butterflies have a lot of color, weather on Earth or in a nebula! :D 8-)


Lovely blue butterfly, Orin! 😀 Is it a Blue Morpho?

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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by neufer » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:24 pm

DL MARTIN wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:14 pm
In the caption for today's APOD the term light years was highlighted. When one goes to this reference, the idea that entities are not simply distant but also back in time is stated. Would someone please explain why that argument is stupid as one described me when I made it?
  • It is NOT stupid!
Scientifically, however, it is much more useful to classify objects (closer than about ten billion light years) according to their physical characteristics while ignoring their absolute age. (Physical science is primarily learning about how to separate important facts from irrelevant facts.)

Astronomical distances are scientifically important for determining 1) their size, 2) their luminosity and 3) their relative location to other objects. OTOH, (most) astronomical absolute time lines have virtually no scientific value (and are redundant if one knows the distances).

It is analogous to someone writing dozens of Starship Asterisk* posts arguing that Pluto should be re-included once again as a planet. It is a simply a semantics argument of little (if any) scientific value.
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by orin stepanek » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:42 pm

Ann wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:43 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:29 pm IC1318_Pham_960.jpg


Darling; why do I get butterflies!


download.jpg

Butterflies have a lot of color, weather on Earth or in a nebula! :D 8-)


Lovely blue butterfly, Orin! 😀 Is it a Blue Morpho?

Ann
I don't know Ann! I picked it because it was blue and I compared it with today's nebula!🦋 The song title goes way back to Patty Page!
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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by Ann » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:01 pm

neufer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:12 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sound_of_Thunder wrote:
"A Sound of Thunder" is a science fiction short story by American writer Ray Bradbury, first published in Collier's magazine in the June 28, 1952, issue and later in Bradbury's collection Bradbury's colelction in 1953.
--------------------------------------------
In the year 2055, time travel has become a practical reality, and the company Time Safari Inc. offers wealthy adventurers the chance to travel back in time to hunt extinct species such as dinosaurs. A hunter named Eckels pays $10,000 to join a hunting party that will travel back 66 million years to the Late Cretaceous period, on a guided safari to kill a Tyrannosaurus rex. As the party waits to depart, they discuss the recent presidential elections in which an apparently fascist candidate, Deutscher, has been defeated by his opponent Keith, to the relief of many concerned. When the party arrives in the past, Travis (the hunting guide) and Lesperance (Travis's assistant) warn Eckels and the two other hunters, Billings and Kramer, about the necessity of minimizing the events they change before they go back, since even the smallest alterations to the distant past could snowball into catastrophic changes in history. Travis explains that the hunters are obliged to stay on a levitating path to avoid disrupting the environment, that any deviation will be punished with hefty fines, and that prior to the hunt, Time Safari scouts had been sent back to select and tag their prey, which would have died within minutes anyway, and whose death has been calculated to have minimal effect on the future.

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Although Eckels is initially excited about the hunt, when the monstrous Tyrannosaurus approaches, he loses his nerve. Travis tells him to go back to the time machine, but Eckels panics, steps off the path, and stumbles into the forest. Eckels hears shots, and on his return, he sees that the two guides have killed the dinosaur, and shortly afterward the falling tree that would have killed the T. rex has landed on top of it. Realizing that Eckels has fallen off the path, Travis threatens to leave him in the past unless he removes the bullets from the dinosaur's body, as they cannot be left behind. Eckels obeys, but Travis remains furious, threatening on the return trip to shoot him.

Upon returning to 2055, Eckels notices subtle changes: English words are now spelled and spoken strangely, people behave differently, and Eckels discovers that Trum Deutscher has won the election instead of Bide Keith. Looking at the mud on his boots, Eckels finds a crushed butterfly, whose death has apparently caused a rift in the timeline that has affected the nature of the alternative present to which the safari has returned. He frantically pleads with Travis to take him back into the past to undo the damage, but Travis had previously explained that the time machine cannot return to any point in time that it has already visited (so as to prevent any paradoxes). Travis raises his gun, and there is "a sound of thunder."

--------------------------------------------
"A Sound of Thunder" is often credited as the origin of the term "butterfly effect", a concept of chaos theory in which the flapping of a butterfly's wings in one part of the world could create a hurricane on the opposite side of the globe. The term was actually introduced by meteorologist Edward Norton Lorenz in the 1960s. However, Bradbury's concept of how the death of a butterfly in the past could have drastic changes in the future is a representation of the butterfly effect, and used as an example of how to consider chaos theory and the physics of time travel.>>
I read that story in Bradbury's The Golden Apples of the Sun. The way I remember it, humanity had been replaced by purple(?) space beings(?) when the hapless time traveler came home.

But hey, Art, I just loved the Simpsons take on the butterfly effect! :lol2: Thanks a billion for posting it! :lol2:

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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by johnnydeep » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:53 pm

neufer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:24 pm
DL MARTIN wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:14 pm
In the caption for today's APOD the term light years was highlighted. When one goes to this reference, the idea that entities are not simply distant but also back in time is stated. Would someone please explain why that argument is stupid as one described me when I made it?
  • It is NOT stupid!
Scientifically, however, it is much more useful to classify objects (closer than about ten billion light years) according to their physical characteristics while ignoring their absolute age. (Physical science is primarily learning about how to separate important facts from irrelevant facts.)

Astronomical distances are scientifically important for determining 1) their size, 2) their luminosity and 3) their relative location to other objects. OTOH, (most) astronomical absolute time lines have virtually no scientific value (and are redundant if one knows the distances).

It is analogous to someone writing dozens of Starship Asterisk* posts arguing that Pluto should be re-included once again as a planet. It is a simply a semantics argument of little (if any) scientific value.
I should probably keep out of this, but far away objects - like galaxies - are often seen by their appearance and optical characteristics to be immature versions of their more recent cousins, hence they are usefully described as being much less further along in their evolution and therefore much younger (using the big bang as the starting time).
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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by DL MARTIN » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:11 pm

Re Neufer:
When I first glanced at the sky as a child I assumed all the stars were all the same distance away. As I accrued more insight, I came to the realization that they were in fact various distances involved. Then I came to realize that what I was seeing was not current events but a historical record of the Universe's evolution. Now I've been told on this discussion list that this doesn't matter and that I'm stupid and ignorant for insisting that time description of entities is relevant. Well i believe that for the sake of scientific accuracy, the inclusion of the 'ago' aspect of astronomical observation is essential. Otherwise, one who ignores time disparities reminds me of someone looking out the window and declaring that the world is flat.
I believe the public has a right to know that what is being observed is in the past. This is not to negate the importance of astronomy but to clarify it's relevancy as a science with a strong archaeological bent,

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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:21 pm

DL MARTIN wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:11 pm When I first glanced at the sky as a child I assumed all the stars were all the same distance away. As I accrued more insight, I came to the realization that they were in fact various distances involved. Then I came to realize that what I was seeing was not current events but a historical record of the Universe's evolution. Now I've been told on this discussion list that this doesn't matter and that I'm stupid and ignorant for insisting that time description of entities is relevant.
You have not been told that at all.
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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by neufer » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:12 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:53 pm
I should probably keep out of this, but far away objects - like galaxies - are often seen by their appearance and optical characteristics to be immature versions of their more recent cousins, hence they are usefully described as being much less further along in their evolution and therefore much younger (using the big bang as the starting time).
Far away objects - like galaxies that existed between 400
and 800 million years after the Big Bang (redshifts between 7 and 12)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_universe#The_universe_as_it_appears_today wrote:
<<From 1 billion years after the Big Bang the universe has looked much as it does today. It will continue to appear very similar for many billions of years into the future. The thin disk of our galaxy began to form at about 5 billion years (8.8 Gya), and the Solar System formed at about 9.2 billion years (4.6 Gya), with the earliest traces of life on Earth emerging by about 10.3 billion years (3.5 Gya).>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Ultra-Deep_Field wrote:
<<The Hubble Ultra-Deep Field (HUDF) is the deepest image of the universe ever taken and has been used to search for galaxies that existed between 400
and 800 million years after the Big Bang (redshifts between 7 and 12)
Several galaxies in the HUDF are candidates, based on photometric redshifts, to be amongst the most distant astronomical objects. The red dwarf UDF 2457 at distance of 59,000 light-years is the furthest star resolved by the HUDF.

The field imaged by the ACS contains over 10,000 objects, the majority of which are galaxies, many at redshifts greater than 3, and some that probably have redshifts between 6 and 7. The NICMOS measurements may have discovered galaxies at redshifts up to 12.>>
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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by johnnydeep » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:28 pm

neufer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:12 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:53 pm
I should probably keep out of this, but far away objects - like galaxies - are often seen by their appearance and optical characteristics to be immature versions of their more recent cousins, hence they are usefully described as being much less further along in their evolution and therefore much younger (using the big bang as the starting time).
Far away objects - like galaxies that existed between 400
and 800 million years after the Big Bang (redshifts between 7 and 12)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_universe#The_universe_as_it_appears_today wrote:
<<From 1 billion years after the Big Bang the universe has looked much as it does today. It will continue to appear very similar for many billions of years into the future. The thin disk of our galaxy began to form at about 5 billion years (8.8 Gya), and the Solar System formed at about 9.2 billion years (4.6 Gya), with the earliest traces of life on Earth emerging by about 10.3 billion years (3.5 Gya).>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Ultra-Deep_Field wrote:
<<The Hubble Ultra-Deep Field (HUDF) is the deepest image of the universe ever taken and has been used to search for galaxies that existed between 400
and 800 million years after the Big Bang (redshifts between 7 and 12)
Several galaxies in the HUDF are candidates, based on photometric redshifts, to be amongst the most distant astronomical objects. The red dwarf UDF 2457 at distance of 59,000 light-years is the furthest star resolved by the HUDF.

The field imaged by the ACS contains over 10,000 objects, the majority of which are galaxies, many at redshifts greater than 3, and some that probably have redshifts between 6 and 7. The NICMOS measurements may have discovered galaxies at redshifts up to 12.>>
Thanks for this clarification! Yes, it's only the VERY far away (and immature) galaxies that look like infants compared to, say Andromeda. Much, perhaps, like the fact that it's only children younger than about 12 who look markedly different than adults aged 20 - 60. And i presume we have yet to see the truly senescent galaxies that will predominate in the far future (after, what, another 30 billion years?).
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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by BillBixby » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:49 pm

I watched the live NASA broadcast of Perseverance landing on Mars. The results were outstanding. The terror and excitement shown in the control room by all in attendance was real to me but delayed by whatever transition time to convert the signals into broadcast form, transmitted and received, and then reconfigured to the image my eyes saw from my TV. Plus the time from my eyes to my brain.
But I felt I was watching in NOW time as then was the now I was experiencing at that time. At that same NOW time, I knew everybody was waiting for and reacting to what had happened on Mars eleven minutes prior. It had already occurred (eleven minutes prior) but now was when this world was seeing the results. Now was now, and the best information available was eleven minutes old.
You, I, and the scientists and all persons involved with anything must react and deal with the now we are presented, even though it was eleven minutes ago, plus MODEM time (modulate the signal, demodulate the signal) on Mars.
The same holds true with dealing in astronomical distances. We deal with the best information we are presented, knowing it is old but the best we have available in the now we are given. Given the term “light years” acknowledges time and distance and the best information available to us now, at this time, even though it happened X light years ago. It is built into the name. A re-iteration that it happened light years ago would be redundant.

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Re: APOD: IC 1318: The Butterfly Nebula in Gas... (2021 Mar 16)

Post by Ann » Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:59 am

DL MARTIN wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:14 pm In the caption for today's APOD the term light years was highlighted. When one goes to this reference, the idea that entities are not simply distant but also back in time is stated. Would someone please explain why that argument is stupid as one described me when I made it?
I recommend this video, "When is now?"

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Also, since you care so much about the question of how far into the past we see when we look at images of deep-space objects, why don't you take it upon yourself to find out?

For every nebula, star cluster and galaxy that became an APOD, you could google the distance to it, or just read the APOD caption. According to the caption of this APOD, the picture of the portion of the Butterfly Nebula that we see in the APOD is located some 4,000 light-years away.

So instead of complaining, why don't you simply make a post and write, "The photons that were detected in order to produce this image left their source, the Butterfly Nebula, some 4,000 years ago. I found this piece of information in the caption of today's APOD, which said that the nebula is located 4,000 light-years away. It means that we see the Butterfly Nebula the way it looked 4,000 years ago."

You would be right, and no one could criticize you for pointing it out.

Just don't expect any of us to post something like that. So stop complaining, stop asking the same questions over and over, and start writing posts that contain the kind of information that is important to you.

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