GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

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Expand view Topic review: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by neufer » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:42 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr%E2%80%93Einstein_debates wrote:
<<At the sixth Congress of Solvay in 1930, the indeterminacy relation just discussed was Einstein's target of criticism. His idea contemplates the existence of an experimental apparatus which was subsequently designed by Bohr in such a way as to emphasize the essential elements and the key points which he would use in his response.

Einstein considers a box (called Einstein's box; see figure =>) containing electromagnetic radiation and a clock which controls the opening of a shutter which covers a hole made in one of the walls of the box. The shutter uncovers the hole for a time Δt which can be chosen arbitrarily. During the opening, we are to suppose that a photon, from among those inside the box, escapes through the hole. In this way a wave of limited spatial extension has been created, following the explanation given above. In order to challenge the indeterminacy relation between time and energy, it is necessary to find a way to determine with an adequate precision the energy that the photon has brought with it. At this point, Einstein turns to his celebrated relation between mass and energy of special relativity: E=mc2. From this it follows that knowledge of the mass of an object provides a precise indication about its energy. The argument is therefore very simple: if one weighs the box before and after the opening of the shutter and if a certain amount of energy has escaped from the box, the box will be lighter. The variation in mass multiplied by c2, will provide precise knowledge of the energy emitted. Moreover, the clock will indicate the precise time at which the event of the particle’s emission took place. Since, in principle, the mass of the box can be determined to an arbitrary degree of accuracy, the energy emitted can be determined with a precision ΔE as accurate as one desires. Therefore, the product ΔEΔt can be rendered less than what is implied by the principle of indeterminacy.

The idea is particularly acute and the argument seemed unassailable. It's important to consider the impact of all of these exchanges on the people involved at the time. Leon Rosenfeld, a scientist who had participated in the Congress, described the event several years later: "It was a real shock for Bohr...who, at first, could not think of a solution. For the entire evening he was extremely agitated, and he continued passing from one scientist to another, seeking to persuade them that it could not be the case, that it would have been the end of physics if Einstein were right; but he couldn't come up with any way to resolve the paradox. I will never forget the image of the two antagonists as they left the club: Einstein, with his tall and commanding figure, who walked tranquilly, with a mildly ironic smile, and Bohr who trotted along beside him, full of excitement...The morning after saw the triumph of Bohr.">>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr%E2%80%93Einstein_debates wrote:
<<The "triumph of Bohr" consisted in his demonstrating, once again, that Einstein's subtle argument was not conclusive, but even more so in the way that he arrived at this conclusion by appealing precisely to one of the great ideas of Einstein: the principle of equivalence between gravitational mass and inertial mass. Bohr showed that, in order for Einstein's experiment to function, the box would have to be suspended on a spring in the middle of a gravitational field. In order to obtain a measurement of weight, a pointer would have to be attached to the box which corresponded with the index on a scale. After the release of a photon, weights could be added to the box to restore it to its original position and this would allow us to determine the weight. But in order to return the box to its original position, the box itself would have to be measured. The inevitable uncertainty of the position of the box translates into an uncertainty in the position of the pointer and of the determination of weight and therefore of energy. On the other hand, since the system is immersed in a gravitational field which varies with the position, according to the principle of equivalence the uncertainty in the position of the clock implies an uncertainty with respect to its measurement of time and therefore of the value of the interval Δt. A precise evaluation of this effect leads to the conclusion that the relation ΔE Δt ≥ h, cannot be violated.>>

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by kirkpatrick » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:26 pm

@RJN
In your statement of the problem, the only mention of existing interference is prior to, and the only mention of photon time-of-release is after, the phrase "the experiment is repeated, except now..." The only reasonable, literate interpretation of your statement is that the time measurement is added, along with the video screen, at the repetition of the experiment, and (as is to be expected) does not occur in the initial experiment.

I presume, however, that the interpretation you've stated is the problem you meant to pose. So my question to you is: Why the timing data? What purpose is served by adding a factor which, by definition, has no effect? Why the "Aspect to consider," misleadingly emphasizing the timing data?

At the end of your answer, you wonder if the experiment has been done. I ask, Why would anyone do it? Under the circumstance that the timing information is too imprecise to be of interest, there can be no result of interest. You are really only wondering if anyone has looked at an interference pattern with a high-shutter-speed videocam. What result of interest, or null result of interest, could be looked for?

Let me explain my evident irritation with your problem and answer -- after all, why should I care? Well, this is a topic that is often badly handled, even in textbooks, so it is confusing to many who read about quantum mechanics. This discussion was an opportunity to clarify the ways of handling complementarity correctly. But your answer failed to do so -- it failed to integrate, or to improve upon, what had been presented, and your answer leaves the incorrect impression that the subject is confusing and not well understood. Nothing about the loss of coherence due to distinguishability is an open physics question, and the answer should make this clear.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by thescotsgosling » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:33 pm

This strikes me as the same question as a photon coming from a distant quasar around a gravity lens. Does the photon come around the right or left side as a particle or does it come around both sides as a wave. When we test for particle nature we see it come around a side but if we test for wave nature we see it come around both sides. The paradox, "How does it know?" Presumably it was emited from the Quazar a few billion years ago.

Here is my responce to the above "paradox" and your thought expermiment. Become the photon. Photons are generated by quantum changes which happen across our preceived bounderies with out crossing them and in an instant. Traveling at the speed of light the photon's time contracts to infinitly short. By becoming the photon your creation, your start time and your arrival time are all in the same instant. By becoming the photon you, are present at the quasar and detection point on Earth in the same instant. In you thought experiment you are present at the source and screen in the same instant The notion of measuring the time delay is meaning less to the behaviour of the photon in either case.

This simple direct interpretaion of Relativity also seems to account for the tied twin experiments.

Instant is an infinitly short period of time. Whether an infinitly short anything has duration or lenght is another topic.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by RJN » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:13 pm

I believe the best answer is "An interference pattern." Now this was a tough one for me and I may well be wrong in whole or in part of my brief explanation, but here goes.

I think a key is that the timing information indicated would not be specific enough to give which-path information that would destroy the interference pattern. Now perhaps the wording of the question was deceptive with the phrase "The time of release of single source photons is also recorded precisely", but then again the only thing that was replaced since the appearance of the interference pattern was the image screen, meaning that source photons could still create an interference pattern. Adding time-resolution to the image screen should not affect the interference pattern.

What could affect the interference pattern is increased time-resolution of the source emission. Consider, for example, that the source photons are emitted through a slit that rotates into a position where a source photon may be released. I believe this timing mechanism is general enough to explore all relevant possibilities. Now this source slit has some width, and so a photon may escape just as the leading side of the slit aligns with an opening, or as the trailing side aligns with the opening. There will be some time difference inherent in this. I could call it "dt" but I consider it a challenge to explain this only using words!

Now one could create a map for how long it takes photons to go from the source to any point on the image screen, through one slit, and then another map for the other slit. One could hope to find "which path" information by measuring photon flight time and comparing it to this map. But this map does not take into account the range of possible starting times for each source photon.

OK, so this might mask "which path" information near the image screen center, but what about photons that land far from the center? This was a key to my understanding of this thought experiment. Originally, I had thought that photons that landed increasingly far out from the image screen center would be increasingly easy to tell which slit they went through. But even for these distant photons, there is only a slight time difference between arriving though each slit in the slit screen. The largest time difference is approximately the time it takes for a photon to go directly from one slit to the other. This is not a very big time difference!

As one might now guess, for interference to occur initially, the timing of photon release from the source can not be resolved better than this length of time. It is not a matter of knowing this information and discarding it -- the apparatus cited was not capable of determining this information.

If the source slit rotates so fast that which-path information becomes discernible, then the interference pattern will disappear. Why? Well in quantum mechanics it seems that just the possibility of measuring "which path" information wipes out interference patterns, even is the measurement does not itself affect anything at all.

Nevertheless, in this case, it does appear to me that the time measurement at the source will create a disturbing effect. Specifically, forcing even monochromatic laser-created photons through such a small time window will fan them out over many energies, as indicated by the energy-time uncertainty principle. The equivalent case for the position-momentum uncertainty principle is a straight-line laser being fanned out by going through a very narrow slit.

Much of this answer is just a rehash of much of what has been posted above by several knowledgeable posters. Still, my understanding continues to evolve, and if I am incorrect in whole or in part in this answer, I will update it at a future time.

To the best of my present knowledge, this experiment has not been done, nor even analyzed in mathematical detail. If anyone knows of such an experiment or analysis, I would be interested to know the reference(s). Alternatively, if anyone does this experiment, I would also be interested to know the result. Additionally, if anyone wants to analyze this in physical and mathematical detail, I would be interested to see the result at the least, and collaborate at the most.

- RJN

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by alter-ego » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:33 pm

chull wrote:What do you mean, "In a few days I will post what I believe to be the correct answer."? Has this experiment been done or not? I would love to hear the _real_ answer because I swear I have wondered about this kind of experiment but never heard of it being done.
Single-photon interference experiments have been conducted, typically at near-IR or IR wavelengths. However, I highly doubt actual timings to the wavelength accuracy have been conducted because of technological limits. On the surface, it does seem feasable that timings at microwave frequencies are testable (λ ~ 10's of centimeters, timing resolution ~1ns, 300MHz BW). To my knowledge, this experiment has not been tried, but I'm not sure.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by chull » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:47 pm

What do you mean, "In a few days I will post what I believe to be the correct answer."? Has this experiment been done or not? I would love to hear the _real_ answer because I swear I have wondered about this kind of experiment but never heard of it being done.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by kirkpatrick » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:29 am

@wavefunction:
I understand you to be saying that (1) there is an interference pattern being displayed (at least if there's an ordinary screen) AND (2) there is the ability to determine time-of-flight accurately enough to distinguish slit identity.
Now, (2) is possible only if the source is pulsed more briefly than the difference in time-of-flights. But, as I showed quantitatively, and then Henning showed in a nice verbal display (at his paragraph 4), this makes (1) impossible.

But I'm beginning to see that for you, and some others, the question has to do with something about detectors and knowledge.
the difference to ponder here is the effect of knowing the slit identity.
The answer to that question is trivial -- there is no effect. Knowledge has nothing to do with loss of coherence/interference. It isn't an issue of the precise time-of-flight being known, but being in principle knowable.

The nicest illustration of this that I've seen is in some experiments from Mandel, particularly Zou, Wang, and Mandel PRL 67, 318 (1991). Here, two coherently pumped downconversion crystals send their signal photons on the two arms of an interferometer, with the correlated idler photons leaving the apparatus on defined paths. If an idler photon were detected, it would tell which interferometer arm (path) were taken, hence no interference. But in this experiment the idler photons are not detected. If they are directed by reflections to leave on the same path, there is interference of the signal photons in the interferometer. If the idlers leave on divergent paths, there is no such interference. In neither case is there detection of the idlers. It has nothing to do with "knowing" anything; rather, it is entirely a matter of there being a distinguishing difference somewhere in the universe. (I hope it's obvious that, if the idler photons leave on the same path, the detection of a photon on that path gives no signal path information, because they can not be labeled "idler 1" and "idler 2".)

Of course, given such a distinguishing difference, an experimenter might measure it, and then know. But that is entirely a secondary, derivative result, not the "cause" of the loss of interference.

Relating this to the current question, then: The nature of the detecting screen, whether a photographic film integrating over time, or a video screen giving many instantaneous records, has no effect whatsoever on the existence of an interference pattern.

Turning now to the issue of numbers. (I've been a physicist for more than fifty years, and I believe I've never seen such resistance from physicists to dealing with physical reality. Gedankenexperimenten are not arbitrary fantasies; if you want to violate fundamental laws, you need to propose that up front.)

If we place the detector at the first minimum, we must pulse the source into a packet less than a half-wavelength long. The will create such a broadband signal that there will be no interference pattern possible, regardless of distinguishability issues. So instead let's place the detector at the 10th minimum, so the distinguishing pulse can be as much as 8 or 9 wavelengths long. This isn't monochromatic by any means, but it would allow a fuzzy pattern to exist. In this case, we have an interference pattern in the center, becoming less and less sharp as we go out, and vanishing by the 10th minimum, as the temporal overlap of the waves at the screen becomes less and less.

So we see that if you don't consider numbers at all, you could be dealing with a trivialized situation -- everything is smeared out. And if you do think a bit quantitatively, you come up with interesting results like this -- the gradual vanishing of the interference pattern with distance from the central axis.

Finally, wavefunction, your last post (appearing just as I'm finishing this) is correct. That it is possible to distinguish the paths is everything; whether anyone has bothered to do so is irrelevant. So I don't understand why you seem to treat this issue of knowledge in the opposite fashion in your immediately previous post.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by wavefunction » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:02 am

Suppose we run the experiment. After it is over, two people go in at different times. One of them looks at the timing data, the other doesn't. If I understand what you say correctly, the one that looked at the timing data would not see the interference pattern but the other one would, right?
If someone is able to go in and look at the timing data afterwards, then it was measured. Nobody will see the interference pattern.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by wavefunction » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:35 am

I am quite certain that there are no qualitative principles to resolve this. Only a quantitative result (not numbers, but mathematical expressions relating the parameters of the problem) can let us determine the possibility of a combination of parameters for which the spread of the pulse is not great enough to allow coherence to be reestablished. If you actually want to know whether pulsing the double slit source will destroy the interference pattern, you will have to go through the mathematical calculations I described. There's no free lunch.
Yes there is- lunch came free with the question.
Aspect to consider: if the precise time-of-flight time for a photon is known, won't it be possible to compare this with the time-of-flight it would take for this photon to go through each slit, and therefore determine which slit this photon went through?
Unless lunch was poisoned, clearly the questioner is under the impression that such a combination of parameters does exist, and the difference to ponder here is the effect of knowing the slit identity. Not whether the premise of the question is really invalid and we're not going to be able to identify which slit at all in the first place because of other factors relating to pulse spreading that will interfere with the precision in a real experiment. I don't think this is a trick question.

A quantitative analytical approach would be appropriate if we were actually designing an apparatus for this experiment costing a lot of money, because in that case we would "actually want to know" whether we really have the slit identity, but for a thread about a gedankenexperiment, that's bringing a gun to a knife fight. This is a Guess the Result of the Experiment of the Day, not a thesis defense. The purpose of gedankenexperiments is to illustrate qualitative principles that do manifest themselves in nature to an extent, even if they end up dominated in reality by unrelated factors that go over everyone's head to the concern of no one. These aren't real experiments.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by alter-ego » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:07 am

Henning,
For whatever it's worth, you description is exactly what I was struggling to put together. I've been extremely bothered why/how timing, per se, could change an observed outcome. Yes, I've assumed all along that the problem, as stated with a pre-existing, pre-timing interference pattern was critical in a deterministic way (if you will) of the post-timing resultant intensity distrubution. It remains to be seen if your description is correct, but you've expressed the qualitative description to the tee, in my opinion.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by jmac » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:06 am

Suppose we run the experiment. After it is over, two people go in at different times. One of them looks at the timing data, the other doesn't. If I understand what you say correctly, the one that looked at the timing data would not see the interference pattern but the other one would, right?

Also, what if one person looked at the results without looking at the timing data, then looked at the timing data, and then looked at the results again. What would he see?

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by alter-ego » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:51 am

wavefunction wrote:
...but I don't yet get how event timing can be better than ~λ/c (Implied by Kim?), which is also the arrival timing difference between the slits.
The event timing accuracy is a property of the pulse and detector timers; it doesn't depend on the photon wavelength. Our timers don't suddenly get crappier if we move from blue to red light.

We can generate an arbitrarily precise measurement of a photon's time of flight to within X microseconds (where X is a property of the timer), even if the probability of detecting it doesn't vary significantly during any arbitrary given time window of X microseconds in duration. That's the distinction of the event vs the probability of the event.
I am following these discussions fairly with a bit of hobbling. I like that both kirkpatrick and Henning are presenting explanations keeping the uncertainty principle at bay, but if you don't mind, I'd like clarification regarding proper use and interpretation of the ΔEΔt relation. Per your comment, the timers aren't (significantly?) affected by wavelength. Does that mean that the timers can measure photon flight time to an arbitrary small fraction of its wavelength and not violate the uncertainty principle? If so, is that intuitively explained? Is it that we can effectively determine the "center" of the time window? In your words, you used "X microseconds" as the example which I have no problem with, but I do have a problem with X attoseconds. Again, this is asked in principle. If you did answer this (above), then I didn't get it.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by Henning Makholm » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:34 am

kirkpatrick wrote:Henning Makholm has given the correct naive answer in his point 4. It is identical to that which I posted a few hours earlier. (It appears that, by posting a quantitative development in TeX, I made it invisible to readers on this list.)

But, as I said, this is a matter of naively assuming that the pulse travels without change. It does not. So to get an answer to this question, it is necessary to consider this spatial spreading, which will create an overlap of the sort Henning seems to be discussing in his next points. There is also the effect of the spectral spreading due to the pulsing of the wave, which does not destroy interference but will make it less detectable.
I'm assuming we're in vacuum such that light pulses do not spread.

But I don't really need that assumption. Instead of my point 1 "Assume that we can measure the shape and timing of the pulse when we emit it", we can just cut to the chase and say: Assume that we can measure stuff and do whichever calculations are necessary to find out how the two relevant contributions to the wave look like when they arrive at the detector. These calculations can be arbitrarily complex if we fill the space the photon must pass through with dielectrics, plasmas, things with color-dependent optical indices and so forth, but the only thing that matters for my argument is that their answer exists. Two wavetrains arrive at the detector. They have fancy shapes, I don't care exactly which, I'm just assuming that with enough work we could know them. They either overlap or they don't. If they don't overlap, there is no interference whether we measure arrival times or not. If they do overlap, there is interference whether we measure arrival times or not, but measuring arrival times will not allow us to conclude anything about which slit the photons used.
If you actually want to know whether pulsing the double slit source will destroy the interference pattern, you will have to go through the mathematical calculations I described. There's no free lunch.
But that is not the question that was asked.

We don't need to compute from first principles whether or not we will see interference, because the question as asked explicitly stipulates as a boundary condition that we start from an experiment that does produce interference and the only change we make is to replace the "image screen" with a "fast lensless video screan". The question is whether that change alone can make the interference go away. And the answer is that it can't.

The question does say "The time of release of single source photons is also recorded precisely." I read this as meaning that the apparatus to record the release time has been there all the time, even in the initial experiment where we're told that there is interference. If it were not so, the title of the question should not have been "Double slit with fast lensless video screen", but rather "Double slit with precise recording of photon release times". It appears to be quite possible that adding a release-time recorder to an experiment that had none might destroy interference, and deciding that would indeed require the calculations you allude to (and the correct answer would then be "insufficient data"). But it is, to the best of my reading ability, a different question from the one we were asked.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by wavefunction » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:29 am

How do the photons know whether or not we are going to throw away the timing data?
One might ask how (in the simple screen case, with one or two slits) a photon knows that the slit it didn't go through was covered or not.

Measuring the flight time identifies the slit, essentially "covering" the other slit, because a trip through that one would be inconsistent with new observations.

Re: The spoiler bit

by jmac » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:01 am

wavefunction wrote:How can we make our old interference pattern come back? By throwing away the timing information that this new video sensor array is giving us
How do the photons know whether or not we are going to throw away the timing data?

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by kirkpatrick » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:40 am

Henning Makholm has given the correct naive answer in his point 4. It is identical to that which I posted a few hours earlier. (It appears that, by posting a quantitative development in TeX, I made it invisible to readers on this list.)

But, as I said, this is a matter of naively assuming that the pulse travels without change. It does not. So to get an answer to this question, it is necessary to consider this spatial spreading, which will create an overlap of the sort Henning seems to be discussing in his next points. There is also the effect of the spectral spreading due to the pulsing of the wave, which does not destroy interference but will make it less detectable.

I am quite certain that there are no qualitative principles to resolve this. Only a quantitative result (not numbers, but mathematical expressions relating the parameters of the problem) can let us determine the possibility of a combination of parameters for which the spread of the pulse is not great enough to allow coherence to be reestablished.

If you actually want to know whether pulsing the double slit source will destroy the interference pattern, you will have to go through the mathematical calculations I described. There's no free lunch.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by wavefunction » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:29 pm

...but I don't yet get how event timing can be better than ~λ/c (Implied by Kim?), which is also the arrival timing difference between the slits.
The event timing accuracy is a property of the pulse and detector timers; it doesn't depend on the photon wavelength. Our timers don't suddenly get crappier if we move from blue to red light.

We can generate an arbitrarily precise measurement of a photon's time of flight to within X microseconds (where X is a property of the timer), even if the probability of detecting it doesn't vary significantly during any arbitrary given time window of X microseconds in duration. That's the distinction of the event vs the probability of the event.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by Henning Makholm » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:54 pm

Henning Makholm wrote:Bonus observation: Instead of trying to make our timing measurements more precise, we could just increase the scale of the entire experimental setup, such that the differences in travel time between the two slits become large enough to measure. But in that case we would not expect interference in the first place (no matter whether we measure the times or not), because the nonzero part of the wavetrain-through-slit-A would only interfere with a part of the wavetrain-throgh-slit-B whose amplitude is zero and vice versa.
Upon further thought, I'll promote this to be my principal answer. It is simple, elementary, and works for all scales. No need to do Fourier transforms or muck around with uncertainty principles. So:

1. Assume, perhaps generously, that we can measure the exact shape and timing of the wave packet that gets emitted at the left end of the experiment.

1a. It is not meaningful to ask when during that wave packet the "actual" photon leaves the emitter. If you try to measure it anyway, all you'll get for your effort is a shorter wave packet. And shorter wavepackets are, as argued below, inherently less effective at showing interference patterns. (This is not because of the uncertainty principle; it is how the uncertainty principle works in the first place!)

2. Also assume, perhaps generously, that we can measure exactly the time and place where the photon interacts with the detector.

3. How interference works in the usual one-photon experiment is that the wavetrain can arrive at a given point on the detector via two paths of different length, so it will arrive there in two copies of which one is delayed with respect to the other. We add the copies and integrate the square of the sum over time to find the probability of detecting the photon at that particular point.

4. If the wavetrain is shorter than the difference in travel times, integrating the sum will give the same result as adding two separate integrals. Therefore we see no interference, whether or not we take note on the detection time. However, this is also precisely the case where knowing the detection time will allow us to infer which slit the photon must have passed through.

5. If the two wavetrains overlap partially, we can consider the time in three periods. Call period L the interval when the only contribution to the amplitude sum comes from the copy of the wave train that passed through the left slit. If we detect a photon during this period, we can infer that it went through the left slit. Mutatis mutandis, if we detect a photon during period R, it must have come through the right slit. What is left is period B, during which the sum wave contains contributions from both copies of the wave train. This is where interference happens. But when we detect a photon during periond B, we cannot infer which slit the photon must have passed through. It could be either, by the very definition of period B.

6. The probabilities from periods L, B, and R simply add. If we do the experiment without measuring arrival times, we see a strong interference pattern if B is long compared to L and R, and very little interference if B is short compared to L and R. We see the exact same compound pattern when measuring time, and the strength of the interference is directly related to the fraction of photons we detect in the "could-be-either" period B. If we measure times and create three separate scatterplots according to whether we detected the photon in periods L, B, or R, the plots L and R will show no interference, and plot B will show 100% interference.
kirkpatrick wrote:We are now well past the point of vague hand waving about uncertainty principles and the rest (what appears in the posts above). It is necessary to do some physics. The whole thing needs to be parametrized (slit separation, distance to screen, off-axis distance to detector, central wavelength, etc). Then a pulse shape needs to be chosen, Fourier analyzed, and the resulting interference patterns constructed. Then the pulse shape spread must be computed and applied. Perhaps then something can be said about the appearance of the interference. (Actually, I guess the whole thing needs to be done in {\bf k}-space, rather than trying to separate the different wavelength patterns from the pulse spreading.) This would make a nice senior physics paper.
We would need to do all that if we wanted quantitative predictions that could be compared with an actual experiment. But my understanding is that that is not what this thread asks for. It asks a qualitative question: Why is this simple gedankenexperiment not a paradox? And that calls for a qualitative understanding of how it works, with as few nitty-gritty assumptions about particular pulse shapes and exact dimensions as possible. (But no fewer, obviously).

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by alter-ego » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:18 pm

wavefunction wrote:
alter-ego wrote: I'd still like to know if there can be intrinsic timing uncertainty imposed by the Uncertainty Principle. Why isn't it showing up in this problem?
Energy and time are mutually unascertaintable measurables equivalent to position and momentum being mutually unascertainable measurables. (Just look at the units.) But position-momentum is better to use here. It's probably easier to view this as eliminating one single bit of position uncertainty between the two slits (i.e. one bit to indicate which slit); the question's contrivances about the timing apparatus are hinting at a position measurement. (Speed is well known.)
Now this looks like good stuff! I need to take some time to digest your comments, and I want to try to understand where Kim is comming from. There are two important (maybe philosophical) ideas I want to understand, and not just accept at face value:

First is the uncertainty principle and that it is not violated in arriving at the diffraction pattern answer (you've already responded to this, and I need to go over it). I do find that position-momentum is easier to use, but I don't yet get how event timing can be better than ~λ/c (Implied by Kim?), which is also the arrival timing difference between the slits. Let me see if you've answered this, and I'll follow up if I need to.
Second is to understand what constitutes a timing. I can kind of follow what a "detection" is, but in this problem, interference visibility, or not, does depend on timing, not the means of how the photon detection occurs. But when / where does timing collapse the wave function? If I turn off the timing equipment, it seems the fringes simply come back(?) I have created a couple thought experiments to help me answer this, but I realized that using timing knowledge (as opposed to normal photon energy / momentum perturbations) is not obvious, and I lack the understanding of what "timing" really means and how it remains consistent with the uncertainty principle.

Wavefunction, I sure appreciate your patience. At some point I will become a deer in the headlights, but I don't think I'm there yet. I have a BS in physics, and I simply love these discussions. This problem has really forced me to clear out some cob webs in my head.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by wavefunction » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:06 pm

Here's a similar question.

The nicest interference patterns are produced by diffraction gratings (lots of evenly spaced slits); just a few thin beams of light (an odd number) come out, each indicating a precise momentum. That's from throwing most of the position information away; you have no clue which slit at all. But you do know a little about where the photon was, since photons can only go through slits, and the cumulative area of the slits doesn't account for the entire area of the grating.

Let's say for example that these slits are 1.0 micrometers apart, and 0.1 micrometers wide. A photon gets through the grating, at position x, in meters. You know nothing about x at all except its tenth-micrometers digit, which you do know. We pay for that information in terms of p, our information on momentum, roughly trading away the first nonzero momentum digit (but only the first) to get the tenth-micrometers digit. We retaining all the rest of the digits we have for momentum. Stick this grating in the path of a nicely collimated coherent laser beam, where photons have a well-defined momentum), and what was previously a single beam spreads out into... about 9 or 11 nicely collimated beams, each indicating one of 9 or 11 well defined momenta. (Pick suitably colored light for this gedankenexperiment so that we get an odd number that's at least near ten.)

Not knowing which beam means that you know almost all of the momentum variable except its first nonzero digit. (Pick suitable units, base-9 or base-11 if required, keep hand waving constants around as necessary, etc. etc. to get the clean separation of known/unknown digits that should be possible.) If we knew which beam a given photon were in, we would know its momentum as precisely as we did before, when there was nothing in the way and there was just a single beam.

If you screw with the grating by trying to figure out which beam (trying to score that first digit of the momentum), using the fancy gizmo this question describes, do you know what is going to happen now?
You'll essentially and/or inadvertently be pinning down the position down to the width of one slit, since you'll know which of those zillion slits let any given photon through now. So instead of having just the tenth-micrometers digit, you'll have many more position digits. Maybe you did score that first nonzero digit you wanted for the momentum- at least you know it will reach the array- but you lost the remaining momentum digits.

Therefore you'll observe a big fuzzy bell-shaped distribution on your array. Fundamentally we can't know which beam, or it will stop looking like a few collimated beams.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by wavefunction » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:16 pm

I think the spoiler goes wrong in assuming that it is possible in principle to measure the times precisely enough to make the interference go away.
While true in principle, that's a hand-waving thing.
(I guess it says something about your personality if you always post in spoiler tags.)

Measuring times here amounts to measuring position. (Just assume sufficient clock precision for today; speed is fixed to 299492758 m/s.) To the extent that our position accuracy isn't good enough to always identify the correct slit, the interference may be slightly visible as a faint ripple on top of the widely spread distribution. But the better we are at figuring out which slit (not hard), the fainter the ripple gets. Being even just almost certain about which slit will destroy most of it.

Our position measurement precision isn't infinite. We can't have a slit of zero width or we won't measure anything. Widening a slit introduces position error (to the extent that we open it, duh), and narrowing it introduces momentum error (seen as a more and more spread-out distribution).

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by kirkpatrick » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:11 pm

The time of flight from source to screen detector via slit 1 is $t_1$, for slit 2 is $t_2$; $t_2 - t_1=\delta t$. Pulse the source narrower than $\delta t$. The time-modulation is $\pi(t)$, a pulse function. This ``should'' give time-of-flight information at the detector that can distinguish the slit path. (The detector must be off-axis, so $t_1 \neq t_2$.)

At the detector, with $|\psi_j>$ the wave functions from each of the slits at the detector, we have
$$ |\Psi>= \pi(t - t_1) |\psi_1> + \pi(t - t_2) |\psi_2> $$

Consider the probability operator $|\Psi><\Psi|$, and trace out (time integrate) the modulation, getting
$$\rho = \alpha_{11}|\psi_1><\psi_1|+\alpha_{22}|\psi_2><\psi_2|+
\alpha_{12}|\psi_1><\psi_2| + \alpha_{21}|\psi_2><\psi_1|$$
with $\alpha_{jk}=\int \pi(t - t_j)\pi(t-t_k)dt$. ``Interference'' is just the cross terms.

Naively assume the pulse travels unchanged. Then at the detector at all times one term or the other is zero; $\alpha_{12}=\alpha_{21}=0$. There can be no interference.

{\vskip1ex}
Note carefully: This has nothing to do with the ``time-resolution'' of the detector. In interference, it is always the distinguishability of the alternate situations, never the detection of that distinguishing factor, that ``destroys'' the interference.

And it would really help your understanding to give up such ideas as ``the photon goes through both slits'' or ``the photon interferes with itself''. Particles do things (eg, move on paths, hit detectors, ...). Wave functions are the probabilities that these things occur. The probability of the occurance of an event is categorically distinct from the occurance of the event. (``Categorically distinct'' means conceptually orthogonal --- it is blind confusion to interchange them.)

{\vskip1ex}
Of course, things are much more complicated than this. First, the pulse will not travel unchanged. It will spread, causing the pulses at the detector to overlap to some extent; now the cross-term $\alpha$'s don't vanish, and this decrease in orthogonality results in an increase in interference.

But also, because the source is pulsed, it is no longer monochromatic. This causes the result at the screen to be an overlay of different patterns, smearing any interference pattern that might be present -- the minima and maxima will be broadened, and no longer fully bright and dark.

We are now well past the point of vague hand waving about uncertainty principles and the rest (what appears in the posts above). It is necessary to do some physics. The whole thing needs to be parametrized (slit separation, distance to screen, off-axis distance to detector, central wavelength, etc). Then a pulse shape needs to be chosen, Fourier analyzed, and the resulting interference patterns constructed. Then the pulse shape spread must be computed and applied. Perhaps then something can be said about the appearance of the interference. (Actually, I guess the whole thing needs to be done in {\bf k}-space, rather than trying to separate the different wavelength patterns from the pulse spreading.) This would make a nice senior physics paper.




{\vskip1ex}
Kim Kirkpatrick
\bye

Copy this to a *.tex file and process it to see the formuals. Otherwise you can just read through the TeX.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by wavefunction » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:58 pm

alter-ego wrote: I'd still like to know if there can be intrinsic timing uncertainty imposed by the Uncertainty Principle. Why isn't it showing up in this problem?
Energy and time are mutually unascertaintable measurables equivalent to position and momentum being mutually unascertainable measurables. (Just look at the units.) But position-momentum is better to use here. It's probably easier to view this as eliminating one single bit of position uncertainty between the two slits (i.e. one bit to indicate which slit); the question's contrivances about the timing apparatus are hinting at a position measurement. (Speed is well known.)

How have we paid for this extra bit of position information in terms of momentum uncertainty? What the hell, spoiler tag:
Before, we could have said with more certainty what the momentum would be. We expected the photon to land at about half the places on the screen, the maxima, and to avoid the other half, the minima. Now we can't say that anymore. It might be just as likely to head toward these dark places now. Recording the momentum at time of slit-passage requires one more binary digit because we have lost one bit of momentum information.

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by Henning Makholm » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:19 am

alter-ego wrote:It's late for me, so please excuse me if I'm missing something. The timing of the flashes are uncertain and the positions are not. The quantity ~λ/c seem to me to be within the bounds of the Uncertainty Principle (but it does have to be applied legitimately which I'm not sure). But by itself, the timing uncertainty does not imply positional UNcertainty. It arises solely from deciding to pin down the timing of the flashes.
That sounds about right. Of course the positions are also slightly uncertain, but I don't think that is crucial to resolving the question.

And ~λ/c underestimates the time uncertainty; it should be ~1/cΔf, so the more certain you are of the frequency/wavelength (and therefore the more well-defined the interference bands you're expecting will be), the less can you know about arrival times.

Bonus observation: Instead of trying to make our timing measurements more precise, we could just increase the scale of the entire experimental setup, such that the differences in travel time between the two slits become large enough to measure. But in that case we would not expect interference in the first place (no matter whether we measure the times or not), because the nonzero part of the wavetrain-through-slit-A would only interfere with a part of the wavetrain-throgh-slit-B whose amplitude is zero and vice versa.
I was resonding to the spoiler.
Sorry then. (To be clear, I think the spoiler goes wrong in assuming that it is possible in principle to measure the times precisely enough to make the interference go away.)

Re: GRED Answer: Double slit with fast lensless video screen

by alter-ego » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:11 am

Henning Makholm wrote:
alter-ego wrote:I'd still like to know if there can be intrinsic timing uncertainty imposed by the Uncertainty Principle.
There is. Time and energy are one of the standard examples of pairs of quantities that the uncertainty principle applies to.
Why isn't it showing up in this problem?
Why do you think it isn't?
I was resonding to the spoiler. I need to get some rest and maybe I won't have the same questions tomorrow :ssmile:

Thanks Henning.

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