Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

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Expand view Topic review: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by neufer » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:05 pm

alain wrote:?
1. Uk and South africa have nearly same longitude but times are very different
2. If bolids occur at about 100km altitude, how can it be seen from such different latitudes as UK and South Africa ?
Other than the possibility that they are both Taurids the two meteors are totally unrelated.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by alain » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:59 pm

?
1. Uk and South africa have nearly same longitude but times are very different
2. If bolids occur at about 100km altitude, how can it be seen from such different latitudes as UK and South Africa ?

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by SsDd » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:52 am

Great job neufer. I was wondering why the video looked familiar.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by neufer » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:29 pm

RJN wrote:
I just came across this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db6QFfR16xg

Now this video doesn't say where it was taken or even what time,
but it appears to me at first glance consistent with the recent UK fireball.
On second glance: http://www.bashewa.com/meteor-showers-21-Nov-2009.php
http://www.psychohistorian.org/display_article.php?id=200911220139_20091121-bright-meteor.content wrote: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHH8cXM4_n4&NR=1[/youtube]
Late on Saturday night, 2009 November 21, a very bright meteor
was seen flashing across the sky from the northern parts of South Africa.

Tim Cooper, Director of the ASSA Comet & Meteor Section, estimates that the apparent magnitude of the meteorite was –18.

"I think it is highly likely it hit the ground somewhere north of our borders," Tim writes. He notes that the most northerly sighting came from north of Gweru, Zimbabwe. "Reports also from as far west as Rustenburg, and as far east as Ezulwini, Swaziland" were received, he writes.

The size of the meteorite has been estimated as that of a rugby ball.

In an update today (2009 Nov 30), Tim mentions the possibility that the object was a cometary fragment. "What lends credence to this possibility is the short duration (nearly all reports say 3-4 seconds) and the fact that this was claimed to be a very, very energetic event," he writes.

Another update today, from Freddie Roelofse (Senior Petrologist, Council for Geoscience):

"Only one of our seismic network's stations, the one at Musina, picked up something, possibly a sonic boom at ~23h00 local time on 21 November 2009. We are presently still waiting for feedback from the CTBTO regarding the infrasound data, but it appears as if the event may have been recorded at three infrasound stations. As these things go, the data interpretation may take some time to do, but hopefully we'll get to the bottom of this in due course.

"Please also see the attached Google Earth image that I've constructed using details from the eye-witness accounts posted on your website."

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by RJN » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:59 pm

Shown more discerning methods for searching YouTube for fireball and meteor videos, I just came across this one:
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Now this video doesn't say where it was taken or even what time, but it appears to me at first glance consistent with the recent UK fireball. If so, perhaps this and the above video were taken sufficiently far apart to determine a 3D path for the meteor that better indicates from whence it came and to where it went. It does seem, though, that decrypting good sky information from the videos would take a some effort.

Also, considering the source of these two videos, perhaps I need to rethink what video sources might be most useful for meteor recovery. This one, for example, appears to be a traffic video. I hadn't thought of that, but perhaps traffic videos might be another useful source for fireball information.

- RJN

A late Northern Taurid?

by neufer » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:23 am

RJN wrote:
Searching the web with Google, I found several accounts of this fireball were reported to the
Armagh Observatory Fireball report web site here: http://arpc65.arm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/fireballs/browse.pl
http://arpc65.arm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/fireballs/browse.pl wrote:
* Date: 2010-Dec-08
* Time: 17.40pm wed 8/12/10
* Location: Campsie, Londonderry. heading northward along A2 in my car.

* Report: white fireball entering atmosphere, i was driving north and the object appeared in front of me for approx 5 seconds heading vertically down, then split into a fork as it disintigrated. Initially thought it was a firework until i read bbc news meteor report tonight. No noise from object i could hear whilst in the car.
I found this report particularly interesting. The "northward" A2 runs essentially west to east at Campsie so the meteor was probably coming from due east of Campsie (at Lat. 55º N) while heading vertically down. This would most likely make it a late Northern Taurid coming out of the M45/Pleiades's vicinity and crossing the UK almost exactly along the 55th parallel. I believe that this is consistent with the other reports including the drawing of the meteor passing through the Big Dipper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurids wrote:
<<The Taurids are an annual meteor shower associated with the comet Encke. They are named after their radiant point in the constellation Taurus, where they are seen to come from in the sky. Because of their occurrence in late October and early November, they are also called Halloween fireballs.

Encke and the Taurids are believed to be remnants of a much larger comet, which has disintegrated over the past 20,000 to 30,000 years, breaking into several pieces and releasing material by normal cometary activity or perhaps occasionally by close encounters with the gravitational field of Earth or other planets (Whipple, 1940; Klačka, 1999). In total, this stream of matter is the largest in the inner solar system. Due to the stream's size, the Earth takes several weeks to pass through it, causing an extended period of meteor activity, compared with the much smaller periods of activity in other showers. The Taurids are also made up of weightier material, pebbles instead of dust grains. Typically, Taurids move slowly across the sky at about 17 miles per second (27 kilometers per second).

Due to the gravitational effect of planets, especially Jupiter, the Taurids have spread out over time, allowing separate segments labeled the Northern Taurids and Southern Taurids to become observable. Essentially these are two cross sections of a single, broad, continuous stream in space. The Beta Taurids, encountered by the Earth in June/July and which many astronomers consider the cause of the Tunguska event, are also a cross section of the stream. Beta Taurids approach from the Earth's daytime side; so cannot be observed visually in the way the (night-time) Northern and Southern Taurids of October/November can.

The Taurid stream has a cycle of activity that peaks roughly every 2500 to 3000 years, when its core passes nearer to Earth and produces more intense showers. In fact, because of the separate "branches" (night-time in one part of the year and daytime in another; and Northern/Southern in each case) there are two (possibly overlapping) peaks separated by a few centuries, every 3000 years. Some astronomers note that dates for megalith structures such as Stonehenge are associated with these peaks. The next peak is expected around 3000 AD.

Some consider the Bronze Age breakup of the originally larger comet to be responsible for ancient destruction in the Fertile Crescent, perhaps evidenced by a large meteor crater in Iraq. However the Bronze Age was c. 6000 years ago and the original break up of the parent comet, as mentioned above, occurred long before that. Ancient peoples may have been used to Tunguska Class impacts which occur approximately every 300 years as calculated by Eugene Shoemaker and Krakatoa type eruptions both of which have widespread climatic effects and which would dwarf any climatic effects from the slight increase in upper atmospheric dust caused by bolides due to passing through the tail of Comet Encke.

An impact event was observed by NASA scientist Rob Suggs and astronomer Bill Cooke while testing out a new 10-in telescope and video camera they had assembled to monitor the moon for meteor strikes. After consulting star charts they concluded that the impact body was probably part of the Taurid meteor shower. This may well be the first recording of this type of lunar event which some have claimed to have witnessed in the past. During the week ending November 4, 2005, the large number of fireballs seen all over the world led some to suggest UFO visitations. These fireballs may have been space junk or the Taurids.>>

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by SsDd » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:30 am

RJN wrote:What I was doing was entering the search term "meteor' and/or "fireball" and then selecting only videos that had been uploaded "This week". This technique still fails to find the video you linked to. So please tell us how you found it!

- RJN

RJN, I almost do the same exact thing when I look for videos. You will observe, however, that along with looking for videos indexed "this week", you will achieve better results if you also ask Youtube to index them by "Upload Date", not "Relevance". Alternatively, I also used a lot of different search terms like "meteorite" "meteor UK" etc.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by Chris Peterson » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:00 am

Danielmcundiff wrote:Is this the same thing? Is it possible this was part of the Geminid showers from the Pheathon 3200?
This was not the same thing as the UK event. It may well have been a meteor, and right now almost any meteor could be a member of the Geminid shower, but without knowing just where they saw it in the sky, it's impossible to know.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by Danielmcundiff » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:53 am

My Fiance told me both her and her daughter both saw a large white sphere travelling in an unknown direction at 6:30pm central time. Her location at that exact time was just southeast of Indianapolis, Indiana in the United States. She said as she was driving, she looked to her left and saw the sphere moving, then her daughter saw it too. I asked her if it had a tail, she said no. She was driving on I-74 Westbound, near Acton Indiana when she saw it. I-74 west bound curves northwest 3 miles or so east of Acton Indiana; so when she said she looked to her left, she had to have been looking Southwest.

Is this the same thing? Is it possible this was part of the Geminid showers from the Pheathon 3200?

Here was her location:
http://www.mapquest.com/#d06b19cb39d596eaa699b9e2

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by RJN » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:20 am

Wow, great finding that video, SsDd!. Could you tell us how you found it, though? I had been searching YouTube regularly for videos like this and came up empty. What I was doing was entering the search term "meteor' and/or "fireball" and then selecting only videos that had been uploaded "This week". This technique still fails to find the video you linked to. So please tell us how you found it!

- RJN

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by neufer » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:32 pm

SsDd wrote:
neufer wrote: Hmmm... let me take a wild guess here:

Traveling from: 53.415636 N , 2.89117 W to
53.416330 N , 2.89036 W
Ah, sorry neufer, in all the excitement of finding the video, I did not notice the co-ordinates on his cam.
Of course, it may not be the meteor in question seeing as how the timing is off by a year:
RJN wrote:Did you see this bright meteor?

Place: Somewhere over the United Kingdom
Time: 2011 December 8; about 5:35 pm GMT

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by Chris Peterson » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:15 pm

neufer wrote:Locating possible meteorites was NEVER a key purpose of this exercise.
You must be reading something very different than I am.

RJN: "Goal: Obtain as many images of the bright meteor as possible so as to reconstruct the meteor's path and the location of any meteorites."

RJN: "A goal of this project is to connect fireballs and meteorites with the comet or asteroid of origin. This has only been done a few times, and in this modern digital age where many people own digital cameras and cell phones, there might be opportunity for improvement. Also, NASA and other space agencies spends millions sending spacecraft to comets and asteroids to study them and bring back pieces. It might help if a ragtag group of sky enthusiasts could make a difference on a much more modest budget and with existing technology."
neufer wrote:This event captured the interest of a lot of people; ergo, it is worthy of further investigation.
I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm only pointing out some of the pitfalls of attempting rigorous meteor analysis, or of locating meteorites, based on fireballs where most or all of the available data is provided by witness reports.

I investigate and report on fireballs all the time that have little likelihood of producing meteorites, or for which it is not possible to reconstruct an accurate orbit. I do this for widely witnessed events, specifically because they generate a lot of public interest.

I don't see how anything I said could be construed as negativity about this project as a whole; I was simply summarizing what we know from this investigation, and what additional information this car video brings to the table. Given the limited resources available, it is important to understand early on what sort of events are most worth devoting significant effort on. It isn't practical to chase every fireball bright enough to make the news, although it might be practical to engage is some basic investigation, which I think describes this case.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by SsDd » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:05 pm

neufer wrote: Hmmm... let me take a wild guess here:

Traveling from:

53.415636 N , 2.89117 W to
53.416330 N , 2.89036 W

Ah, sorry neufer, in all the excitement of finding the video, I did not notce the co-ordinates on his cam.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by Chris Peterson » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:04 pm

owlice wrote:This was reported by at least several people to have broken into pieces. Why wouldn't it have produced meteorites?
It was probably too high when it broke up, and still traveling too fast. And if it did produce meteorites, they are likely in the ocean.
It was captured on video with a camera that was traveling down a brightly-lit street (with car headlights shining into the camera to boot); seems to me it would have had to be pretty bright to be filmed under those circumstances.
I'd say the video image is consistent with a magnitude -7 or -8 fireball. That's certainly bright enough to be impressive, but isn't at all unusual, and isn't typical of most recorded fireballs that have associated meteorite falls.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by owlice » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:39 pm

This was reported by at least several people to have broken into pieces. Why wouldn't it have produced meteorites?

It was captured on video with a camera that was traveling down a brightly-lit street (with car headlights shining into the camera to boot); seems to me it would have had to be pretty bright to be filmed under those circumstances.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by neufer » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:38 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:Holy cow, Chris! Chill out. :roll:

This is an interesting exercise simply because so many people saw it that it might be possible to track the path.

No one ever claimed that this was the Fireball of the Century.
You missed my point. One key purpose of this exercise was to locate any meteorites produced, but this event does not appear to be the sort of meteor likely to result in any. Additionally, this case represents a common type of observing bias: even very impressive meteors often go unwitnessed because they are high in the sky, or occur at inconvenient times, while very common, ordinary meteors (like this) end up over-reported simply because they happen at a time and location where they are widely seen. This sort of bias should be considered when deciding if a particular event is worth further investigation.
I got your point; you apparently didn't get mine.

Locating possible meteorites was NEVER a key purpose of this exercise.

http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 32&t=22242

This event captured the interest of a lot of people; ergo, it is worthy of further investigation.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by Chris Peterson » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:20 pm

neufer wrote:Holy cow, Chris! Chill out. :roll:

This is an interesting exercise simply because so many people saw it that it might be possible to track the path.

No one ever claimed that this was the Fireball of the Century.
You missed my point. One key purpose of this exercise was to locate any meteorites produced, but this event does not appear to be the sort of meteor likely to result in any. Additionally, this case represents a common type of observing bias: even very impressive meteors often go unwitnessed because they are high in the sky, or occur at inconvenient times, while very common, ordinary meteors (like this) end up over-reported simply because they happen at a time and location where they are widely seen. This sort of bias should be considered when deciding if a particular event is worth further investigation.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by neufer » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:05 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
That image appears to have caught the fireball in question. It also supports my earlier suspicion that this was not much of a fireball (one of the witnesses reported magnitude -7, which isn't very bright; another said it was brighter than any planets, which again is not suggestive of a very bright fireball). In fact, this appears to have been a very common sort of meteor- one like this could be seen from any given area once a week or so. So why all the hoopla about this event? It's simple: it happened at a commuter time, low in the sky as seen from a heavily populated area. That is much less common, and when it happens you tend to gets hundreds of witnesses, many of whom call news stations (or these days, start Twittering).

Really bright fireballs, such as those recently caught on cameras and known to have dropped meteorites, tend to be brighter than the Moon, and cast shadows as they move across the sky.
Holy cow, Chris! Chill out. :roll:

This is an interesting exercise simply because so many people saw it that it might be possible to track the path.

No one ever claimed that this was the Fireball of the Century.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by Chris Peterson » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:09 pm

SsDd wrote:I found a video, of a person who claims to have caught the event on the camera in his car. I am sent the Youtuber an email, requesting him in very kind words, if he could divulge his location when he caught this...
That image appears to have caught the fireball in question. It also supports my earlier suspicion that this was not much of a fireball (one of the witnesses reported magnitude -7, which isn't very bright; another said it was brighter than any planets, which again is not suggestive of a very bright fireball). In fact, this appears to have been a very common sort of meteor- one like this could be seen from any given area once a week or so. So why all the hoopla about this event? It's simple: it happened at a commuter time, low in the sky as seen from a heavily populated area. That is much less common, and when it happens you tend to gets hundreds of witnesses, many of whom call news stations (or these days, start Twittering).

Really bright fireballs, such as those recently caught on cameras and known to have dropped meteorites, tend to be brighter than the Moon, and cast shadows as they move across the sky.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by neufer » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:01 pm

SsDd wrote:I found a video, of a person who claims to have caught the event on the camera in his car. I am sent the Youtuber an email, requesting him in very kind words, if he could divulge his location when he caught this :-
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Hmmm... let me take a wild guess here:

He was traveling NNE (azimuth ~35º) on Brookside Ave. in Liverpool, England
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=57.1526, ... 1526,-2.11

at 17:35:12 Dec. 8, 2010

Traveling from:

53.415636 N , 2.89117 W to
53.416330 N , 2.89036 W

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by SsDd » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 am

I found a video, of a person who claims to have caught the event on the camera in his car. I am sent the Youtuber an email, requesting him in very kind words, if he could divulge his location when he caught this :-
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by SsDd » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:38 am

On a UFO hunters website, I found a couple of people discussing a streak of light and a fireball explosion that they apparently thought was a firecracker. However, one of them uploaded a google maps image showing the direction of the apparent streak,

Here is the Image :-

Image

And here is the link to the page :- http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread638396/pg2

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by SsDd » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:29 am

I wonder if any of the pseudo-scientific UFO watchers caught any images, I am guessing they might have cameras pointed permanently to the skies. I have been looking through a large number of mainstream news reports, for a couple of hours now but no one seems to have a photo or video of the event yet.

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by RJN » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:20 pm

Trying to find this fireball's trajectory by online coordination over the past two days has been quite an interesting and learning experience for me. I am reminded of the kids show "JoJo's Circus", which I used to watch with my daughter, where at the end of each episode someone asks "What did you learn today, JoJo?". (And JoJo would typically reply something like, "Well, today I learned that you shouldn't cover yourself in fish blood and then go swimming with sharks.")

1. Real Images are Needed
One needs real images to get a meteor trajectory. Anecdotal stories are just not accurate enough. This has been mentioned before but really became clear here. Anecdotal stories are important, though, for determining which quadrant of the sky the meteor would appear from different locations.

2. Cell Phones are Useless
Cell phones will only be useful for imaging fireballs when the meteor takes perhaps 10 seconds or more to cross the sky. That is about how much time it would take someone to take out their cell phone and start to image the fireball. This fireball took less than that -- about 5 seconds to the estimation of many -- so few if any images images of the meteor have come forward. There must have been hundreds of people who saw this meteor, and surely many of them had cell phones, but perhaps none of them were able to get a picture. I have now emailed the sole person who claimed to take a cell phone image of the meteor, but have not as yet heard a response. Meteors that take longer than 10 seconds to cross the sky could be imaged by cell phones but are exceedingly rare.

Note, though, that the Peekskill fireball has imaged by many people, including several videos, back in 1992. I now understand that a key reason for this was the long duration of the fireball. Here is a link: http://meteor.uwo.ca/~pbrown/Videos/peekskill.htm

3. Web Cams are Useless
Many web cams now take only static images instead of streaming movies. Also, even in a first world country like the UK, web cams apparently just don't capture much of the sky much of the time.

4. Security Cams Still Might Work
It is still possible that security cameras are capturing a much larger fraction of the sky, a much larger fraction of the time, than personal cell phones. I note that the most popular amateur meteor video posted to YouTube was taken by a security camera attached to a police cruiser. See: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap081125.html

So, did a security video capture this UK fireball? I would bet that several have. We needed to find a way to get to those images. I have been thinking about this over the past day. Most security videos are private, unrecoverable, and hence lost, but there may be at least two sources of videos that might be recoverable.

Police videos. Just like the above image, police around the world now typically have videos in cars, headquarters, and parking lots. Emails to these police departments might shake some free. The police themselves might not want to sludge through all of the videos trying to find the ones with the fireball(s) though.

News media. I would guess that news media have their own security cameras covering entrances and parking lots. It therefore seems ironic that news centers are asking their readers for images, while they themselves might have better images. In this case, however, they might actually want to sludge through the videos looking for the fireball, since they themselves get to be the first to report on it. Emails to news media sites illuminated by the fireball might be able to shake these free. As time goes by, however, many have been erased.

5. Motivated People are Needed
I now think that a small team or teams -- perhaps only two to five people per team -- should be recruited beforehand to spring into action when a fireball has been reported. These teams could then figure out which video cameras might have seen the event, and contact those organizations as soon as possible to get at those videos before they are overwritten. For motivation, two teams could be created that would then compete against each other.

- RJN

Re: Fireball48 Alert: Fireball Over the United Kingdom

by Kimmy » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:07 pm

I saw this meteor in Newton-le-Willows in Merseyside. So if you want to add a place marker to your map. I only observed it for around 3 seconds and during that time it was fairly bright and broke up into several pieces which I assume burnt up and no sound was heard. Unfortunately I cannot give any directionality. Hope that helps.

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