APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by gmPhil » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:19 am

Well, thanks Ann - I understand there may be all kinds of light-illusions going on, nevertheless I stil find it hard to understand what makes those lower foreground rings "disappear" like they do! Mind you, I dare say there's a lot of things I fail to understand! :)

Re: Old (but classic) Saturn pic - please explain!

by Ann » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:58 am

I'm not the best person to talk about this, gmPhil. I'll talk at length about blue stars and starforming galaxies, but about Saturn... not so much.

Still, let's look at the picture again. You can see that there are some strange "ring shapes" on the "disk" or "body" of Saturn itself. However, what we see here is mostly the shadows of the rings, not so much the rings themselves.
Image
Here you can see a man's feet and lower legs and the shadows of his feet and lower legs. They are not in the same plane. You could photograph the man so that you see little of his shadow, and you could photograph the shadow so that you see little of the man.

I think we see both the dark unlit rings across the very faintly lit "disk" of Saturn, but we also see the shadows of the rings on the "disk" of Saturn. However, the rings also seem to be "backlighting" Saturn, faintly reflecting the sunlight they receive on the dark night side of Saturn.

I think it is this complex "shadow play" with dark shadows as well as reflected light that makes the rings appear to be "broken" over Saturn. Note that the rings are "tilted" from our point of view, further complicating the "shadow play".

Why is the outer "rim" of Saturn so bright? I would guess that it has to do with the mist above the cloudtops of Saturn. Jupiter doesn't have this kind of mist, which is why the cloud features of Jupiter are so stark and dramatic. The cloud tops of Saturn are so much more muted, because they are covered by mist. I would guess that this mist acts as a reflection nebula, spreading the light of the Sun around the circumference of the planet. But the mist is almost certainly semi-transparent, which is why you can see the Sun peeking through.

I also think that the shadow of Saturn itself is falling on the brightly lit rings, so that the rings seem to "disappear" before they "reach" the disk of Saturn.

I have no idea if I answered your question, gmPhil, but if not, why don't you ask, say, Chris or Art?

Ann

Old (but classic) Saturn pic - please explain!

by gmPhil » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:26 am

Re this image of Saturn: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090111.html - one of my favourites - can somoene please explain why or how it is that the outer foreground rings appear to go behind the planet? (Just above where you can see the sun peeking out...) This has long bothered me...
Thanks...

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by sjohnsonart » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:46 pm

This is my most favorite image you have ever distributed through the internet! I am a visual artist, and I think the form and color of this image is colossal. I measure my time in the cosmos by Saturn, being now in my third orbit. Thank you for this gift! sally j :clap:

Re: Orange smudges

by neufer » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:32 am

Case wrote:
RickM wrote:
One feature I don't see discussed is the orange smudges below, and fainter ones above, Saturn and the rings.
It's camera artifacts. http://ciclops.org/view.php?id=2230&flash=1&js=1

“The main rings are overexposed in a few places. Reddish lens flares are visible in both versions of the view. These radially extending artifacts result from light being scattered within the camera optics.”
<<Schmutz (Shmoots): a Yiddish word for dirt, or mud or some such stuff.

If you just ate a cream doughnut you might have some schmutz on your shirt where the cream fell out.>>

Re: Orange smudges

by Case » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:56 am

RickM wrote:One feature I don't see discussed is the orange smudges below, and fainter ones above, Saturn and the rings.
It's camera artifacts.
http://ciclops.org/view.php?id=2230&flash=1&js=1
“The main rings are overexposed in a few places. Reddish lens flares are visible in both versions of the view. These radially extending artifacts result from light being scattered within the camera optics.”

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by William Boyd » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:25 am

"What is man that thou art mindful of him?"

Orange smudges

by RickM » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:14 pm

Fascinating image.

One feature I don't see discussed is the orange smudges below, and fainter ones above, Saturn and the rings. Are those part of the solar corona?

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by Indigo_Sunrise » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:57 am

This one is my all time favorites!
:clap: :clap: :clap:

I have this image in a large size [18" x 36"] hanging above my desk! Beyond cool!



:saturn:

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by flyir » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:33 pm

how great thou art

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by hess » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:44 am

Simply Awsome!! It just happened that way? Thank you!

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by Aiea » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:18 am

This is a reprint from October 16th 2006. http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap061016.html

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by stephinity » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:19 pm

neufer wrote:

Torillion wrote:
Thanks, neufer, for the explanation, but I'm afraid I still don't get it. Perhaps it's because I don't know what a night side equator is and can't find a good explanation. Any chance you could explain it?
You are confusing :
  • 1) the full set of back-lit rings on the left & right with
    2) the lit up backside of Saturn
    as obscured by just the A & B rings.
While the two seem to have superficially similar structures they are actually quite distinct and they are clearly separated in the APOD near the outer edge of Saturn itself (as if someone had drawn a half circle in black marker around the bottom of Saturn).

On Saturn's surface all you can really see is two simple ring bands:
  • 1) a dark obscuration due to the B ring and
    2) a fainter obscuration due to the A ring.
Ignore those two obscuring bands and what you see on Saturn is
  • 1) a bright Southern Hemisphere
    (due to backlighting from the rings)
    2) a fainter Northern Hemisphere
    (due to scattering from the rings) and
    3) a thin dark equatorial line
    (that receives no light at all from the thin rings).
Thanks neufer for the detailed explanation... it clicked in my mind and now I totally see what you mean!

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by Ann » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:21 am

Thanks.

Ann

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by neufer » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:23 am

Ann wrote:
The image you showed in your post is not the right side of the image above center. And the inset can't be from that image, since the inset is clearly in black and white.

By the way, I did notice that today's APOD was produced from ultraviolet, infrared and "clear" filters, which means two invisible filters and one that won't show color. There can be little doubt, however, that the Earth looks blue from space, and if possible it should be shown as such, I think.
The inset is from the right side (above center) of the image bystander shows.

In both the insert & the image the Earth is clearly pale blue (not black & white).

The Earth is a deeper color of blue in the enhanced color APOD image.

Cassini is looking down on the Atlantic Ocean and the western coast of north Africa;
if it had been looking down on the Pacific Ocean no doubt the Earth would have appeared bluer.

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by bystander » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:10 am

Do you ever follow links? The link from APOD takes you to PIA08329, which in turn takes you to PIA08324, which is from the left side of the APOD.
Not since NASA's Voyager 1 spacecraft saw our home as a pale blue dot from beyond the orbit of Neptune has Earth been imaged in color from the outer solar system. Now, Cassini casts powerful eyes on our home planet, and captures Earth, a pale blue orb -- and a faint suggestion of our moon -- among the glories of the Saturn system.

Earth is captured here in a natural color portrait made possible by the passing of Saturn directly in front of the sun from Cassini's point of view. At the distance of Saturn's orbit, Earth is too narrowly separated from the sun for the spacecraft to safely point its cameras and other instruments toward its birthplace without protection from the sun's glare.

The Earth-and-moon system is visible as a bright blue point on the right side of the image above center. Here, Cassini is looking down on the Atlantic Ocean and the western coast of north Africa. The phase angle of Earth, seen from Cassini is about 30 degrees.

A magnified view of the image (inset) taken through the clear filter (monochrome) shows the moon as a dim protrusion to the upper left of Earth. Seen from the outer solar system through Cassini's cameras, the entire expanse of direct human experience, so far, is nothing more than a few pixels across.
But then, you probably know better.

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by Ann » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:31 am

bystander wrote:

PIA08324: Pale Blue Orb

"The Earth-and-moon system is visible as a bright blue point on the right side of the image above center. Here, Cassini is looking down on the Atlantic Ocean and the western coast of north Africa. The phase angle of Earth, seen from Cassini is about 30 degrees."

Credit: NASA/JPL/SSI
APOD Robot wrote: in this exaggerated color image.
PIA08329: In Saturn's Shadow
The image you showed in your post is not the right side of the image above center. And the inset can't be from that image, since the inset is clearly in black and white.

By the way, I did notice that today's APOD was produced from ultraviolet, infrared and "clear" filters, which means two invisible filters and one that won't show color. There can be little doubt, however, that the Earth looks blue from space, and if possible it should be shown as such, I think.

Ann

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by bystander » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:03 am


PIA08324: Pale Blue Orb

"The Earth-and-moon system is visible as a bright blue point on the right side of the image above center. Here, Cassini is looking down on the Atlantic Ocean and the western coast of north Africa. The phase angle of Earth, seen from Cassini is about 30 degrees."

Credit: NASA/JPL/SSI
APOD Robot wrote: in this exaggerated color image.
PIA08329: In Saturn's Shadow

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by Ann » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:48 am

This image testifies to the magic of reflection nebulae.

Of course this image is supremely valuable as well as beautiful, since it represents a prespective that we can never have from the Earth.

Speaking about the Earth, exactly where in the image is the pale blue dot located? I followed the link and saw a closeup of the pale blue dot, but where in the larger image can I find its position?

Ann

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by tECH hIPPY » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:00 am

Way Beautiful. Most totally excellent image. Do you suppose Earth is a crescent or full? Is Mars up there, too? Maybe way up in the upper left corner?

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by neufer » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:47 pm


Torillion wrote:
Thanks, neufer, for the explanation, but I'm afraid I still don't get it. Perhaps it's because I don't know what a night side equator is and can't find a good explanation. Any chance you could explain it?
You are confusing :
  • 1) the full set of back-lit rings on the left & right with
    2) the lit up backside of Saturn
    as obscured by just the A & B rings.
While the two seem to have superficially similar structures they are actually quite distinct and they are clearly separated in the APOD near the outer edge of Saturn itself (as if someone had drawn a half circle in black marker around the bottom of Saturn).

On Saturn's surface all you can really see is two simple ring bands:
  • 1) a dark obscuration due to the B ring and
    2) a fainter obscuration due to the A ring.
Ignore those two obscuring bands and what you see on Saturn is
  • 1) a bright Southern Hemisphere
    (due to backlighting from the rings)
    2) a fainter Northern Hemisphere
    (due to scattering from the rings) and
    3) a thin dark equatorial line
    (that receives no light at all from the thin rings).

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by Torillion » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:35 pm

Thanks, neufer, for the explanation, but I'm afraid I still don't get it. Perhaps it's because I don't know what a night side equator is and can't find a good explanation. Any chance you could explain it? I agree with revloren, this could be the APOD of the Year.

- t

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by NoelC » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:24 pm

This image alone was worth the cost of the mission.

-Noel

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by moonstruck » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:08 pm

Wow! Simply amazing. Thanks, Cassini team.

Re: APOD: In the Shadow of Saturn (2011 Sep 04)

by orin stepanek » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:56 pm

And that pale blue dot! Wow; Ann would love that. 8-) :D

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