APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 02)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 02)

Smiles all around as meteorite hits comet

by neufer » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:27 pm

http://astrobob.areavoices.com/?blog=78068 wrote:
Smiles all around as meteorite hits comet
Posted on October 17, 2011 by astrobob <<OK, now that I’ve drawn you in to this story, here’s the truth. The meteorite didn’t hit exactly hit a comet but rather a ‘Comette’ as in the roof of a home owned by Madmoiselle Comette (pronounced the same) and her companion Monsieur Mosset in Draveil, a suburb of Paris. No one’s quite sure when the meteorite punctured the roof, but it may have happened in August while the couple was on vacation away from the city.

In early September their roof was leaking after a thunderstorm, so they called a roofer to make the repair. While replacing the roofing tiles, he discovered a curious black stone with a pale gray interior and presented it to the owners. Suspecting it might be a meteorite, Mosset later took the stone to the French meteorite collector Alain Carion who owns the Minerals-Fossils-Meteorites shop along the banks of the Seine River in Paris. Carion’s face must have lit up in a big smile, because it was clear to him that the 88g specimen was indeed a rock from space. In his own words: “Mr. Mosset did show me a splendid extra-terrestrial rock of 88 grams, with all the right features: black fusion crust, regmaglypts , pale matrix inside with traces of iron and troilite, attracted to a magnet. Perfect! We had here a real meteorite, and fallen just outside Paris.” Just an FYI, regmaglypts are those thumbprint shaped depressions seen in some meteorites. They’re places where the heat of entering Earth’s atmosphere has melted out softer materials in the stone.

To the delight of everyone, two additional pieces weighing around 2 and 5.3 kilograms of the meteorite fall have recently been found. Since no known meteorite has ever fallen so near Paris, meteorite collectors around the world are very excited about the possibility of adding a small fragment of history to their collections. From outward appearances, the meteorite looks like an what’s known as an ordinary chondrite. Chondrites are extremely ancient – 4.5 billion years old – and thought to originate in the crusts of asteroids in the asteroid belt. Collisions between asteroids liberate fragments which eventually find their way to Earth and lovely places like Paris.

The Smallest Recent Comettes Impact

by neufer » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:03 pm

http://www.universetoday.com/89750/a-meteorite-visits-the-comettes/#more-89750 wrote:
A Meteorite Visits the Comettes
by Jason Major on October 10, 2011 <<When your last name is Comette, I’m sure the occasional astronomy-themed joke is never far away. But it’s no joke that the Comette family living in Draveil, a suburb south of Paris, was paid a visit by a real extraterrestrial a couple of weeks ago – in the form of an 88-gram (3.5 oz.) meteorite that broke through their roof!

The Comettes were on vacation at the time, so didn’t realize their house had been struck by a space rock until they noticed a leak in the roof. When they called in a roofer it was discovered that a thick tile had been completely broken through.

The meteorite was found wedged in insulation.

Mineral scientist Alain Carion investigated the meteorite and determined that it’s an iron-rich chondrite, a 4.57-billion-year-old remnant of the early Solar System that most likely came from the main asteroid belt between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. About 3/4 of all meteorites that have been observed landing on Earth are chondrites.

While obviously not impossible, the odds of your home being hit my a meteorite are incredibly slim. Only 145 meteorites have been documented landing in the US in the past 200 years. On March 26, 2003, just before midnight, hundreds of fragments of a large meteorite fell in the Park Forest area of Chicago. Several fell through roofs of houses and one punched a hole in the roof of the fire station. One large piece weighing about 2.5 kg crashed into a bedroom, narrowly missing a boy who was asleep in his bed! On September 23, 2003, a 20 kg stone meteorite tore straight through a two-storey house in New Orleans and came to rest in the basement. (Source: University of New Mexico Institute of Meteoritics.) Only about 50 meteorites have been found in France over the past four centuries, and none has ever before been discovered less than 80 km from Paris.

While they could attempt to sell the meteorite that struck their home, possibly fetching several hundred euros for it, the Comettes have decided to keep their otherworldly visitor. “A piece of the history of space of which we know nothing, but which is fascinating, has fallen on us,” Mrs. Comette told the Le Parisien newspaper. “It’s like a fairytale, and less likely than winning the lottery, we’re told.”>>

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Chris Peterson » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:23 pm

Spaceball Wizard wrote:What Wolfgang Kundt wants to say is that the impact model rises several issues which simply don't match the Tunguska event...
Then that's what he should have said: that there is an old but serious reference that argues for an alternate explanation, and that while this probably doesn't describe the event at Tunguska, that possibility exists. Referring to "insiders" and "suppressed" information is a sure way to be taken as a crank.

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Spaceball Wizard » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:04 am

Indigo_Sunrise wrote:
Wolfgang Kundt wrote:Your APOD - according to a few insiders - does not describe "the Largest Recent Impact", but rather "the Largest Recent Outburst", for more than thirty independent reasons: we deal with a modern kimberlite. How can this more than a decade-old news be frequently suppressed ?!?


I know I'll probably regret this, but:

WHAT?????

:?
What Wolfgang Kundt wants to say is that the impact model rises several issues which simply don't match the Tunguska event. Among the most important are a large fraction of eyewitnesses who describe a series of up to two dozens explosions lasting about 10 to 20 minutes, as well as a fireball that happily changed its flight direction. An impact or airburst would last only a few seconds (with a three-minutes delay between the fireball appearance and the arrival of the blast at Vanavara). According to http://esoads.eso.org/abs/2003ChJAS...3..545K a violent outburst of some 10 million tons of methane under high pressure out of an ancient volcano in this region could explain the scenario better than the airburst of a cosmic body. The methane outburst itself would be highly violent; even more violent, however, could be an explosive combustion of the methane-air mixture. Since methane has a smaller molecular weight than air, it rises upwards and may be easily ignited by high-altitude discharges (which can even be triggered by such events as many examples of volcanic lightning show). This flame would than travel back to the eruption site, like a burning fuse, possible along a zig-zag path due to high-altitude winds, and probably much slower than a meteorite. When it eventually reaches the bulk of the methane-air cloud, just 10% of the total methane amount need to be in an explosive mixture with the air to cause a 10 megaton equivalent explosion.

There have been several smaller events comparable, like e.g. the Cando event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cando_event, which have claimed to be gas outbursts rather than impacts.

The Spaceball Wizard

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Chris Peterson » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:30 pm

Indigo_Sunrise wrote:I know I'll probably regret this, but:

WHAT?????
The "insiders" he is referring to are all in an insane asylum... and not as staff!

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Indigo_Sunrise » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:09 am

Wolfgang Kundt wrote:Your APOD - according to a few insiders - does not describe "the Largest Recent Impact", but rather "the Largest Recent Outburst", for more than thirty independent reasons: we deal with a modern kimberlite. How can this more than a decade-old news be frequently suppressed ?!?


I know I'll probably regret this, but:

WHAT?????

:?

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Wolfgang Kundt » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:03 am

Your APOD - according to a few insiders - does not describe "the Largest Recent Impact", but rather "the Largest Recent Outburst", for more than thirty independent reasons: we deal with a modern kimberlite. How can this more than a decade-old news be frequently suppressed ?!?

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Chris Peterson » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:46 am

nicheo wrote:There is a theory that the explosion was man made http://home.comcast.net/%7Eonichelson/O ... NGUSKA.pdf
No one anywhere on earth reported seeing a large body falling to earth on that date.
That is not a theory. That is an absurd bit of fantasy, the product of some crackpot. There is no doubt at all that the Tunguska event was a natural phenomenon.

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by nicheo » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:33 am

There is a theory that the explosion was man made http://home.comcast.net/%7Eonichelson/O ... NGUSKA.pdf
No one anywhere on earth reported seeing a large body falling to earth on that date.

Science Channel will have a segment about Tunguska on 10/5/11 http://science.discovery.com/videos/dar ... er-up.html

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by neufer » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:00 am

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=52351 wrote:

<<Some meteor impact craters, like Barringer Crater in Arizona, are easily recognizable due to well-preserved forms and features on the landscape. Other impact structures, such as Bigach Impact Crater in northeastern Kazakhstan, are harder to recognize due to their age, modification by geologic processes, or even human alteration of the landscape.

At approximately five million years old, Bigach is a relatively young geologic feature. However, active tectonic processes in the region have caused movement of parts of the structure along faults, leading to a somewhat angular appearance (image center). The roughly circular rim of the 8-kilometer (diameter) structure is still discernable around the relatively flat interior. In addition to modification by faulting and erosion, the interior of the impact structure has also been used for agricultural activities, as indicated by the presence of tan, graded fields. Other rectangular agricultural fields are visible to the northeast and east. The closest settlement, Novopavlovka, is barely visible near the top of the image.>>

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Chris Peterson » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:30 pm

thongar wrote:I had heard somewhere (discovery Channel, or Sci Channel) about reports of a Arizona Meteor Crater size strike in the Amazon Basin in the 1930s, but it was so remote it was never confirmed. As I recall there now is Radar map coverage of evidence, Which is still in a remote area. If this is true would this not be a larger explosion than Tuguska?
I don't think there is any evidence of an impact in the 1930s. The Iturralde structure in the Bolivian rainforest was identified by satellite imagery and radar, and may represent the Earth's youngest significant impact, at just a few tens of thousands of years.

The dynamics of an airburst and an actual ground impact are so different that comparing them (in the sense of "larger") is challenging, and certainly requires some careful explanation.

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by thongar » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:53 pm

I had heard somewhere (discovery Channel, or Sci Channel) about reports of a Arizona Meteor Crater size strike in the Amazon Basin in the 1930s, but it was so remote it was never confirmed. As I recall there now is Radar map coverage of evidence, Which is still in a remote area. If this is true would this not be a larger explosion than Tuguska?

Thongar

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by orin stepanek » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:38 am

neufer wrote:
orin stepanek wrote:
I would not get out of harms way for a meteorite as it has become mute. A meteor can still hurt you. :? 8-)
Speak for yourself, Orin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptonite wrote:
Image
<<Kryptonite is described as having formed through a process of nuclear fusion attendant to the explosion which destroyed the planet Krypton. Some accounts describe the fusion process as a result of the planet-destroying explosion, others as the cause of it, but all agree that the majority of the debris of the planet was converted into kryptonite and propelled into interstellar space by the force of the explosion, with some ultimately reaching Earth and becoming a threat to Superman—and other Kryptonians.

Kryptonite implies a meteorite from the planet Krypton, as in the Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman episode "The Green, Green Glow of Home," where it is given as "periodic element 126", which in reality corresponds to unbihexium/eka-plutonium, the most stable of the elements in the so-called island of stability. Superman: The Man of Steel Sourcebook (1992), concurs, referring to kryptonite as "the common ore of the super-actinide kryptonium, an unusually stable transuranic element, whose atomic number is believed to be 126." Kryptonium is given a radioactive half-life of 250,000 years.

Some issues of Superman indicate the mechanism by which green kryptonite may hurt Superman. Superman's cells absorb electromagnetic radiation from stars (like Earth's sun). Kryptonite's radioactivity interferes with this semi-photosynthetic process, driving the energy out of his cells in a painful fashion. Some versions of the adverse effects of kryptonite describe the radiation as affecting the blood chemistry of the victim, causing accelerated effects similar to sickle cell anemia in terrestrial humans, and also causing the skin of the victim to turn green as exposure time increases.

Under standard chemical naming procedures, the -ite suffix of kryptonite would denote an oxyanion of the element krypton. However, krypton is a noble gas that forms compounds only with great difficulty, and such an oxyanion is not known. Nevertheless, the University of Leicester presented the Geological Society with krypton difluoride to commemorate the 70th anniversary of Superman.
>>
Wow! Superman is a older than I am! The first appearence was June 1938 in Action comic books. 8-) :mrgreen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_%28comic_book%29

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Ann » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:24 am

Image
Superman! Yeahh!



Ann

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by neufer » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:56 am

orin stepanek wrote:
I would not get out of harms way for a meteorite as it has become mute. A meteor can still hurt you. :? 8-)
Speak for yourself, Orin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptonite wrote:
Image
<<Kryptonite is described as having formed through a process of nuclear fusion attendant to the explosion which destroyed the planet Krypton. Some accounts describe the fusion process as a result of the planet-destroying explosion, others as the cause of it, but all agree that the majority of the debris of the planet was converted into kryptonite and propelled into interstellar space by the force of the explosion, with some ultimately reaching Earth and becoming a threat to Superman—and other Kryptonians.

Kryptonite implies a meteorite from the planet Krypton, as in the Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman episode "The Green, Green Glow of Home," where it is given as "periodic element 126", which in reality corresponds to unbihexium/eka-plutonium, the most stable of the elements in the so-called island of stability. Superman: The Man of Steel Sourcebook (1992), concurs, referring to kryptonite as "the common ore of the super-actinide kryptonium, an unusually stable transuranic element, whose atomic number is believed to be 126." Kryptonium is given a radioactive half-life of 250,000 years.

Some issues of Superman indicate the mechanism by which green kryptonite may hurt Superman. Superman's cells absorb electromagnetic radiation from stars (like Earth's sun). Kryptonite's radioactivity interferes with this semi-photosynthetic process, driving the energy out of his cells in a painful fashion. Some versions of the adverse effects of kryptonite describe the radiation as affecting the blood chemistry of the victim, causing accelerated effects similar to sickle cell anemia in terrestrial humans, and also causing the skin of the victim to turn green as exposure time increases.

Under standard chemical naming procedures, the -ite suffix of kryptonite would denote an oxyanion of the element krypton. However, krypton is a noble gas that forms compounds only with great difficulty, and such an oxyanion is not known. Nevertheless, the University of Leicester presented the Geological Society with krypton difluoride to commemorate the 70th anniversary of Superman.
>>

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Guest » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:52 am

I believe that there is just as much evidence that Tesla crated an inductive kick at a frequencey to bounce
off the ionisphere. No piece of a meteor or comet was ever found. Tesla had a huge tower with an antenna
on it and he was experimenting with broadcasting AC energy. He may have picked the most desolate place on earth
to aim his charge at. He and Edison were arguing over AC and DC. Tesla claimed that AC could be broadcast.
Edison said, "But where would we place the meter?"

The tower was torn down shortly after Tunguska so that no one else could use it.



Roger C. Gledhill

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by orin stepanek » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:31 pm

hee haw wrote:
orin stepanek wrote:Why wouldn't a comet entering the atmosphere be considered a meteor? If I see a streak of fire coming down; I doubt if I would think; hey; is that a comet of an asteroid coming down! I would probably hope I was out of harms way! :shock:
Look under the surface to find the answers. Classification is of what lands and is found, not what is seen.
I would no get out of harms way for a meteorite as it has become mute. A meteror can still hurt you. :? 8-)

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by neufer » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:22 pm

hee haw wrote:
orin stepanek wrote:
Why wouldn't a comet entering the atmosphere be considered a meteor? If I see a streak of fire coming down; I doubt if I would think; hey; is that a comet of an asteroid coming down! I would probably hope I was out of harms way! :shock:
Look under the surface to find the answers. Classification is of what lands and is found, not what is seen.
That is not even a meteorwrong :!:
Chris Peterson wrote:
A meteoroid is the parent body (which could be of cometary material), either in space or in the atmosphere. The atmospheric phenomenon is a meteor. If a piece makes it to the ground, it is called a meteorite (although meteorwrongs are much more common <g>).

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Chris Peterson » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:48 pm

islader2 wrote:@ Dick Henry Writing dates in the format "year/month/date" is a very useful tool for accessing files--since only the last digit changes daily. Think about it--the US Army has. ThanX. :D :D
This big-endian notation is codified in ISO 8601. To take full advantage of it, however, it is important to use only numerals (no month names), and to always use leading zeros to force the day and month to be two characters. The result is an "alphabetical" date format, that will naturally sort with most file systems.

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by meme » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:26 pm

islader2 wrote:@ Dick Henry Writing dates in the format "year/month/date" is a very useful tool for accessing files--since only the last digit changes daily. Think about it--the US Army has. ThanX. :D :D
You know, I've advocated that for years, without realizing the fundamental reason for it in the computer age, which you bring out so well. Thank you!

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by hee haw » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:22 pm

orin stepanek wrote:Why wouldn't a comet entering the atmosphere be considered a meteor? If I see a streak of fire coming down; I doubt if I would think; hey; is that a comet of an asteroid coming down! I would probably hope I was out of harms way! :shock:
Look under the surface to find the answers. Classification is of what lands and is found, not what is seen.

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by Chris Peterson » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:49 pm

wolf kotenberg wrote:Too bad water molecules that arrive from space do not carry a barcode that we can read. It would not surprise me if some water in that swamp from the comet is still being drunk by fish.
Even if it was a comet, that doesn't mean it had much water- the rocky core of a comet is more likely. And even if the body did have a lot of water, virtually all of it would have ended up in the atmosphere, which means it would have been widely distributed over Asia, and the entire world.

In a sense, water molecules are coded, since there are isotopic forms, and looking at ratios can tell something about the environment the water formed in (or existed in). But there's no useful way to use that information years after an event like this.

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by islader2 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:40 pm

@ Dick Henry Writing dates in the format "year/month/date" is a very useful tool for accessing files--since only the last digit changes daily. Think about it--the US Army has. ThanX. :D :D

Re: APOD: Tunguska: The Largest Recent Impact... (2011 Oct 0

by wolf kotenberg » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:20 pm

Too bad water molecules that arrive from space do not carry a barcode that we can read. It would not surprise me if some water in that swamp from the comet is still being drunk by fish.

Meteorology

by neufer » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:03 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
orin stepanek wrote:
I always thought that a meteor was when it was burning in the atmosphere and a meteoroid was the pieces that made it to the ground. :?
A meteoroid is the parent body (which could be of cometary material), either in space or in the atmosphere. The atmospheric phenomenon is a meteor. If a piece makes it to the ground, it is called a meteorite (although meteorwrongs are much more common <g>).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid#Terminology wrote:
<<Traditionally, small bodies orbiting the Sun were classified as asteroids, comets or meteoroids, with anything smaller than ten metres across being called a meteoroid. The term "asteroid" is ill-defined. It never had a formal definition, with the broader term minor planet being preferred by the International Astronomical Union from 1853 on. In 2006, the term "Small Solar System Body" was introduced to cover both most minor planets and comets. Other languages prefer "planetoid" (Greek for "planet-like"), and this term is occasionally used in English for the larger asteroids. The word "planetesimal" has a similar meaning, but refers specifically to the small building blocks of the planets that existed when the Solar System was forming. The term "planetule" was coined by the geologist William Daniel Conybeare to describe minor planets, but is not in common use. The three largest objects in the asteroid belt, Ceres, 2 Pallas, and 4 Vesta, grew to the stage of protoplanets. Ceres has been designated as a dwarf planet, the only one in the inner Solar System.

When found, asteroids were seen as a class of objects distinct from comets, and there was no unified term for the two until "Small Solar System Body" was coined in 2006. The main difference between an asteroid and a comet is that a comet shows a coma due to sublimation of near surface ices by solar radiation. A few objects have ended up being dual-listed because they were first classified as minor planets but later showed evidence of cometary activity. Conversely, some (perhaps all) comets are eventually depleted of their surface volatile ices and become asteroids. A further distinction is that comets typically have more eccentric orbits than most asteroids; most "asteroids" with notably eccentric orbits are probably dormant or extinct comets.>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor#Meteor wrote:
<<A meteor is the visible path of a meteoroid that has entered the Earth's atmosphere. Meteors typically occur in the mesosphere, and most range in altitude from 75 km to 100 km. Millions of meteors occur in the Earth's atmosphere every day. Most meteoroids that cause meteors are about the size of a pebble. They become visible between about 65 and 120 kilometers above the Earth. They disintegrate at altitudes of 50 to 95 kilometers. Meteors have roughly a fifty percent chance of a daylight (or near daylight) collision with the Earth. Most meteors are, however, observed at night as low light conditions allow fainter meteors to be observed.

For bodies with a size scale larger than the atmospheric mean free path (10 cm to several metres) the visibility is due to the atmospheric ram pressure (not friction) that heats the meteoroid so that it glows and creates a shining trail of gases and melted meteoroid particles. The gases include vaporized meteoroid material and atmospheric gases that heat up when the meteoroid passes through the atmosphere. Most meteors glow for about a second. A relatively small percentage of meteoroids hit the Earth's atmosphere and then pass out again: these are termed Earth-grazing fireballs (for example The Great Daylight 1972 Fireball).

Meteors may occur in showers, which arise when the Earth passes through a trail of debris left by a comet, or as "random" or "sporadic" meteors, not associated with a specific single cause. A number of specific meteors have been observed, largely by members of the public and largely by accident, but with enough detail that orbits of the meteoroids producing the meteors have been calculated. All of the orbits passed through the asteroid belt.>>

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