APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by geckzilla » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:51 am

If you wanted to begin searching you could look for them in the densest parts of the globular clusters we have nearby for study. If you think that the aftermath should look like the Homunculus nebula, you might expect to see that somewhere in one of them. Globular clusters are weird things, though. There are only a handful of nebulas allegedly within them (Pease 1, for example) and they are all planetary nebulas.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by therodly1 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:43 am

While none have been observed, where would one find out what they expect to see when they do observe one? And I grant that just because I would expect to see something like Eta Carina doesn't mean that others would, but what is it that they expect to see? I expect it just because of how I understand the laws of motion, theory already developed and accepted.

'That which is in motion tends to stay in motion....' etc.

Is there anything that rules out a collision in this case?

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:16 pm

geckzilla wrote:You'll note, however, that eta Carinae is not in a dense star cluster.
Not only that, but even in dense clusters collisions are rare. The recognition that they sometimes occur is based on dynamic modeling. None has ever been observed.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by geckzilla » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:10 am

You'll note, however, that eta Carinae is not in a dense star cluster.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by therodly1 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:58 am

Well, you bring up a good point about stars merging rather than colliding, and I'm sure that happens as well. In regards to how often stars collide, which might mean combine, there is the following from the New York Times:
http://partners.nytimes.com/library/nat ... sions.html
With most of the universe being empty space, astronomers once thought the chance of stars colliding was roughly once in an eternity.

But in recent years, astronomers have realized that collisions are not uncommon within dense clusters of stars.

"We believe there are several hundred every hour somewhere in the universe," said Dr. Michael Shara, curator of the astrophysics department at the American Museum of Natural History, in a symposium at the museum two weeks ago.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:31 pm

geckzilla wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:What can happen is that binary stars can merge, which is a kind of gentle collision (and still very rare). And that's something that has theory behind it, and which has been modeled. Such a merger itself isn't a particularly violent process.
How gentle do you mean? Say, if there was a planet in orbit around the binary pair (I know this is unlikely, too, but just for the sake of example...) would it be destroyed? If you say not particularly violent, does that just mean it wouldn't make much of a blip? I haven't heard of anyone detecting anything like this. There are all-sky surveys constantly on the lookout for novas and supernovas. I guess they wouldn't turn up on those if they did happen, unless of course they went supernova like you mentioned...
You wouldn't want to be around it! By "gentle" I just mean compared with big explosive processes like supernovas, or even planetary nebula formation. Obviously, there are large energies involved.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by geckzilla » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:19 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:What can happen is that binary stars can merge, which is a kind of gentle collision (and still very rare). And that's something that has theory behind it, and which has been modeled. Such a merger itself isn't a particularly violent process.
How gentle do you mean? Say, if there was a planet in orbit around the binary pair (I know this is unlikely, too, but just for the sake of example...) would it be destroyed? If you say not particularly violent, does that just mean it wouldn't make much of a blip? I haven't heard of anyone detecting anything like this. There are all-sky surveys constantly on the lookout for novas and supernovas. I guess they wouldn't turn up on those if they did happen, unless of course they went supernova like you mentioned...

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:18 pm

therodly1 wrote:But really, what would a collision between two stars look like? Do astronomers have a particular set of features to look for when searching through the images that would indicate a collision?
Well, stars don't really collide, so that's not a scenario people look at very hard. There's no mechanism to cause a direct collision, except for pure chance, with the probability so low as to be ignored. What can happen is that binary stars can merge, which is a kind of gentle collision (and still very rare). And that's something that has theory behind it, and which has been modeled. Such a merger itself isn't a particularly violent process. You get a new star, and it behaves pretty much like a star with the combined mass ought to behave. Certainly, the mass could be high enough that you could get a core collapse supernova.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by geckzilla » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:17 am

You need to have more than just an opinion about it to back it up. Otherwise all you are doing is appealing to ignorance.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by therodly1 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:25 am

I fear you're straying into crackpot country.
Said the Abominable Snowman, Chris Peterson.

I quite likely am, apparently.
But really, what would a collision between two stars look like? Do astronomers have a particular set of features to look for when searching through the images that would indicate a collision? Can't call it crackpot country if there's no set of features for those lucky folks that get to peruse the data first!
geckzilla wrote:Everyone has their own theories sometimes but no matter how strongly convicted you feel about your opinion, it's nothing without the immense body of knowledge that the mainstream provides. Please check out the rules, therodly. http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26696
Unfortunately, mainstream doesn't supply much about star collisions and if I suspect that mainstream is overlooking something isn't it best to bring it up in a thread about findings that might lead to a possible explanation of a Eta Carina?
It is more appropriate than seeking a couch to crash on. Again, my opinion only!

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by geckzilla » Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:02 am

Everyone has their own theories sometimes but no matter how strongly convicted you feel about your opinion, it's nothing without the immense body of knowledge that the mainstream provides. Please check out the rules, therodly. http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26696

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:51 am

therodly1 wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
therodly1 wrote:I suspect that this will turn out to be nothing but two stars that have collided.
While there's no particular reason to make that assumption, the reality is that stars colliding is a vanishingly rare event, so an observation would be scientifically valuable.
It is my opinion, arrived at after considerable thought since testing is out of the question, that there must be several collisions visible and in various states of completion that are being misinterpreted as other phenomena. When two stars collide, at onset of the collision, all motion is two directly opposite directions. Inertia would play a part in reversing the motion of some of the mass and ejecting it from the body, but mostly in the direction from whence it came.

By virtue of gravity's constancy, all the mass will be subject to motions as defined by the rules of gravity(after all, it is what brought the stars together). Since most of the mass is in the single star resulting from the collision, that star will control any escaping material.

Years down the road, the expanding cones from Eta Carina will become flute shaped because the material will be still being affected by the mass of the single star. The process has already started. In my opinion.
I fear you're straying into crackpot country.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by therodly1 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:52 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
therodly1 wrote:I suspect that this will turn out to be nothing but two stars that have collided.
While there's no particular reason to make that assumption, the reality is that stars colliding is a vanishingly rare event, so an observation would be scientifically valuable.
It is my opinion, arrived at after considerable thought since testing is out of the question, that there must be several collisions visible and in various states of completion that are being misinterpreted as other phenomena. When two stars collide, at onset of the collision, all motion is two directly opposite directions. Inertia would play a part in reversing the motion of some of the mass and ejecting it from the body, but mostly in the direction from whence it came.

By virtue of gravity's constancy, all the mass will be subject to motions as defined by the rules of gravity(after all, it is what brought the stars together). Since most of the mass is in the single star resulting from the collision, that star will control any escaping material.

Years down the road, the expanding cones from Eta Carina will become flute shaped because the material will be still being affected by the mass of the single star. The process has already started. In my opinion.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:35 pm

therodly1 wrote:I suspect that this will turn out to be nothing but two stars that have collided.
While there's no particular reason to make that assumption, the reality is that stars colliding is a vanishingly rare event, so an observation would be scientifically valuable.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by therodly1 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:52 am

I suspect that this will turn out to be nothing but two stars that have collided.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:49 pm

geckzilla wrote:The video I linked to along with numerous mentions about not even wanting to point the telescope at Earth (probably the effects of which were also misunderstood and/or miscommunicated) got me under the impression a supernova (within our galaxy) could potentially damage the instruments.
The HST can be, and has been pointed towards the Earth with its imaging CCDs active (for calibration purposes). Also, the Moon has been imaged (a tricky business that involved moving the spacecraft as the exposure was made).
I emailed the archive help desk recently about something unrelated but remembered this thread at the end and asked about eta Carinae on the side. I got a response from Dorothy Fraquelli and she indeed did not seem concerned that HST would become damaged by it but that is because of internal safe guards built into the telescope which shut it down. So unless those fail, the telescope is supposedly safe. She also said the CCDs can be overexposed but it takes a while for the excess charge to bleed off, which would be pretty annoying if your observations happen after such an event (and it has happened, iirc)...
The safeguards are presumably for the COS instrument, since the CCD cameras are not subject to damage from overexposure. Indeed, they are often deliberately overexposed in order to balance the excess charge trapped after normal exposures. This is called residual bulk image (RBI) and creates a ghost image that can last quite a while, messing up subsequent images if there was anything bright recently exposed. So there's a device that "flashes" the CCD, hitting it with bright light to erase the pattern in the RBI. The downside is that this slightly raises the noise level, but that's often preferably to some sort of pattern on the signal.
What would happen if Hubble looked at the sun?
Nearly instantaneous thermal damage. It would occur to internal elements other than the camera before the aiming was complete. That's why there is a strict protocol that forbids imaging anywhere near the Sun (I seem to remember that the safe zone is something like 45°, far more than it absolutely needs to be). Objects within that zone have to wait for a different time of year to be imaged.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by geckzilla » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:04 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
geckzilla wrote:If it is, then it's got some folks at STScI needlessly concerned. They used amateur astronomers to track the activity of cataclysmic variables to ensure they wouldn't be acting up while Hubble was observing them.
To be clear, this applies to one specific instrument, the COS, a near and far UV spectroscope which unlike other HST instruments, employs a photocathode and microchannel plate in front of the detector- elements that are prone to damage from too much light. There is nothing preventing the HST from pointing other instruments (in particular, imaging cameras) at a supernova, and simply avoiding the use of the COS.
The video I linked to along with numerous mentions about not even wanting to point the telescope at Earth (probably the effects of which were also misunderstood and/or miscommunicated) got me under the impression a supernova (within our galaxy) could potentially damage the instruments. I emailed the archive help desk recently about something unrelated but remembered this thread at the end and asked about eta Carinae on the side. I got a response from Dorothy Fraquelli and she indeed did not seem concerned that HST would become damaged by it but that is because of internal safe guards built into the telescope which shut it down. So unless those fail, the telescope is supposedly safe. She also said the CCDs can be overexposed but it takes a while for the excess charge to bleed off, which would be pretty annoying if your observations happen after such an event (and it has happened, iirc)...

Of course, one wonders if it is also possible for something to be so bright that damage might occur before the safeties kick in. What would happen if Hubble looked at the sun? Nothing good I'm sure but I also can't help wondering. Sounds like a plot to a drama-filled soap opera revolving around astronomers.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Boomer12k » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:14 am

A 3d Printing of it would be cool....and then PAINT IN ALL THE DETAILS.....

:---[===] *

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:41 pm

geckzilla wrote:If it is, then it's got some folks at STScI needlessly concerned. They used amateur astronomers to track the activity of cataclysmic variables to ensure they wouldn't be acting up while Hubble was observing them.
To be clear, this applies to one specific instrument, the COS, a near and far UV spectroscope which unlike other HST instruments, employs a photocathode and microchannel plate in front of the detector- elements that are prone to damage from too much light. There is nothing preventing the HST from pointing other instruments (in particular, imaging cameras) at a supernova, and simply avoiding the use of the COS.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by JuanAustin » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:27 pm

can someone post an audio file saying "ETA CARINAE Homunculus" 3 times?? my tongue has cramp :)

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by geckzilla » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:16 pm

If it is, then it's got some folks at STScI needlessly concerned. They used amateur astronomers to track the activity of cataclysmic variables to ensure they wouldn't be acting up while Hubble was observing them.
Edit: A link to fast forward to the point where Nolan is explaining the difficulties with Hubble's detectors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... L3L4#t=520
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:08 pm

geckzilla wrote:HST can't look at things that bright without the sensors becoming damaged. It would no doubt look at it once things calmed down, though.
That's a bit of an urban myth. The only thing that HST can't look at without damaging its sensors is the Sun. It could certainly look at any supernova without damage. Whether its instruments would be scientifically useful for that task is a different question. We can get a wider range of measurements, as well as higher resolution from ground based telescopes.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by geckzilla » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:59 pm

Nitpicker wrote:(Mind you, the HST or JWST will no doubt offer better images online, than anything my scope could make from my suburban backyard.)
HST can't look at things that bright without the sensors becoming damaged. It would no doubt look at it once things calmed down, though.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by hlwelborn » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:37 pm

It looks like a bad heart valve.

Re: APOD: 3D Homunculus Nebula (2014 Jul 17)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:00 pm

bjmb wrote:" Between 1838 and 1845, Eta Carinae underwent the Great Eruption" - you mean, surely, " "Between 1838 and 1845, Eta Carinae was observed to undergo the Great Eruption" - the thing itself occurred thousands of years ago.
No, the usage in the caption is correct.

When discussing information carried at the speed of light, it is conventional and almost always reasonable to align the occurrence of an event with its observation. After all, you don't say "observed to undergo" before everything you see, even though everything is observed after it "really" happened.

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