Starship Asterisk*

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:37 pm

KayBur wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:26 pm Hmm, and if we consider such travel not in terms of speed, but considering the possibility of artificial sleep? Decades can pass on Earth, and the days of sleeping people are like a day. Of course, this is also science fiction today. But who knows what might be possible in 30-50 years?

It's not really about what is possible, but about what is probable. It is not part of our culture or constitution to think in terms longer than a few years, perhaps a lifetime at most. Any possible mechanism for traveling between stars requires thinking in terms of millennia. Combine that with the massive resources that would be required, and there's simply no way this will happen, unless we become so different from our current selves that "human" may no longer apply.

TommyJ wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:57 pm 100 years is not enough to test a theory.

Also, the theory of relativity doesn't really stand the test of time.

We are still far from creating a unified theory that can explain the universe.

Second: theory of quantum entanglement.

Third: the theory of the multiverse.

You think in terms of the theories currently available.

We will be shocked how much theories will change even in the next 100 years.

Ann wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:12 am

TommyJ wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:35 am Apparently, for some reason, I stuck in a conversation with a man whose imagination is only enough to eat food prepared by devices that someone with a not so limited imagination invented, put on clothes made on other inventions of dreamers, get into the car that people invented, who in their time were called eccentrics, go to an office invented by other people, work on other inventions of dreamers and come back. But thinking, imagining, comparing the size of progress in a short period of time - no ...

Da Vinci designed a helicopter and a parachute 5 centuries ago. Jules Verne predicted submarines long before they appeared.
The story of the Titanic in the book was described several years before the incident. These facts are unlikely to be able to tell you about the infinity of human intelligence, right?

Here is an example closer to the modern world. The guys from the Skyrora team. They were able to build a space company from scratch to launch satellites into orbit and cargo to the ISS in 3 years.

(https://www.skyrora.com/blog/satellites)

Human ingenuity is perfectly capable of building spacecraft suitable for launching humans into low orbit around the Earth.

Indeed, humanity is also able to send people to the Moon. The United States of America sent twelve men to the Moon and brought them back safely in the late sixties and early seventies. And it may well prove possible to send humans safely to Mars, although it may not be possible to bring them back safely again.

But you are talking about sending humans to other solar systems. And you suggest we do so because it is possible to imagine doing so.

I think your ability to imagine things is somewhat limited, because you are probably incapable of even beginning to imagine the true vastness of space. I also think that you are unfamiliar with Einstein's theory of relativity, which has passed every test it has been put through with flying colors ever since Einstein first proposed it some 100 years ago. And Einstein's theory of relativity forbids objects made of matter, such as spacecraft and people, to travel faster than - or even as fast as - light.

Did you open the link I sent you, and did you scroll all the way to Pluto?

https://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pi ... ystem.html

Ann

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:44 pm

Fred the Cat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:19 am
The need to explore seems imbedded in our species. What happens when the boundaries are no longer conquerable? It makes me think that’s why our imagination will continue to dream despite impracticability.

We're not exactly running out of opportunities to explore locally!

Fred the Cat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:19 am The need to explore seems imbedded in our species. What happens when the boundaries are no longer conquerable? It makes me think that’s why our imagination will continue to dream despite impracticability. :ssmile:

KayBur wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:26 pm Hmm, and if we consider such travel not in terms of speed, but considering the possibility of artificial sleep? Decades can pass on Earth, and the days of sleeping people are like a day. Of course, this is also science fiction today. But who knows what might be possible in 30-50 years?

KayBur wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:26 pm
Of course, this is also science fiction today.

But who knows what might be possible in 30-50 years?

TommyJ wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:35 am Apparently, for some reason, I stuck in a conversation with a man whose imagination is only enough to eat food prepared by devices that someone with a not so limited imagination invented, put on clothes made on other inventions of dreamers, get into the car that people invented, who in their time were called eccentrics, go to an office invented by other people, work on other inventions of dreamers and come back. But thinking, imagining, comparing the size of progress in a short period of time - no ...

Da Vinci designed a helicopter and a parachute 5 centuries ago. Jules Verne predicted submarines long before they appeared.
The story of the Titanic in the book was described several years before the incident. These facts are unlikely to be able to tell you about the infinity of human intelligence, right?

Here is an example closer to the modern world. The guys from the Skyrora team. They were able to build a space company from scratch to launch satellites into orbit and cargo to the ISS in 3 years.

(https://www.skyrora.com/blog/satellites)

TommyJ wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:11 am Everything is possible. Especially what you can imagine.

Ann wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:37 am

TommyJ wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
It looks like we are in for the most active phase in the development of space technologies in the near future. Which will lead to new solutions to the problem you described

It is utterly impossible for human beings to even begin to grasp the reality of the vastness of space.

It is impossible for the human mind to fully grasp even the true distance to the nearest star system from our own, Alpha Centauri.

I'm not sure that it is humanly possible to fully grasp the distance to Pluto.

I challenge you to have a try. Click on the link below, find the scroll function and start scrolling right. Don't give up until you get to Pluto.

https://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pi ... ystem.html

When you have reached Pluto (it will take you some time, and please make sure you don't miss any of the other planets while you're scrolling), then try to mentally prepare yourself for the trip to Alpha Centauri.

Let's compare the distance to Pluto with the distance to Alpha Centauri. For simplicity's sake, let's use quite round figures. The average distance to Pluto is a little less than four and a half light-hours. That is to say, on average it takes light a little less than four and a half hours to go from the Sun to Pluto.

It takes light about 4.367 years to go from the Sun to Alpha Centauri (or vice versa). So the distance to Alpha Centauri is approximately as long in light-years as the distance to Pluto is in light-hours. And in view of the fact that there are 8 765.81277 hours in a year, we can say that the distance to Alpha Centauri is ~8,000 times longer than the distance to Pluto.

Did you click on the link I gave you, and did you scroll all the way to Pluto?

Good. Now do the same thing all over 8,000 times, and you have begun to sort of grasp the distance to Alpha Centauri.

You have begun to sort of grasp it. Remember that in that link, the size of the Moon is one pixel. So to fully grasp the distance to Alpha Centauri, you have to multiply the 8,000 scrollings to Pluto with the factor it would take to cover the true size of the disk of the Moon with dots the size of one pixel.

Ann

Ann wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:16 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:05 pm

Ann wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:37 am

It is utterly impossible for human beings to even begin to grasp the reality of the vastness of space.

I disagree. If you work regularly with such distances, it becomes quite comfortable to grasp them. I think the problem comes from trying to compare them to everyday distances. You will never understand light years if you frame them as a trillion times the distance to the supermarket. The trick is to learn to simply treat them as light years.

I wholeheartedly agree, Chris. I meant that people who think it is going to be easy, or at least quite feasible, for human beings to travel to other stars should try to compare the distance to Alpha Centauri with the distance to, if not the supermarket, at least the distance to Pluto.

I think that people who believe it is going to be an exciting adventure to send humans to other solar systems have seen too much science fiction. I also think that many of them vastly underestimate the true distances between stars in our part of the galaxy.

I suspect that many of these optimists somehow compare the crossing of oceans back in the day with future manned missions to other stars. My point is that these things are not comparable at all.

Ann

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:05 pm

Ann wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:37 am

TommyJ wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
It looks like we are in for the most active phase in the development of space technologies in the near future. Which will lead to new solutions to the problem you described

It is utterly impossible for human beings to even begin to grasp the reality of the vastness of space.

I disagree. If you work regularly with such distances, it becomes quite comfortable to grasp them. I think the problem comes from trying to compare them to everyday distances. You will never understand light years if you frame them as a trillion times the distance to the supermarket. The trick is to learn to simply treat them as light years.

Ann wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:37 am

TommyJ wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
It looks like we are in for the most active phase in the development of space technologies in the near future. Which will lead to new solutions to the problem you described

It is utterly impossible for human beings to even begin to grasp the reality of the vastness of space.

Ann wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:37 am
It is utterly impossible for human beings to even begin to grasp the reality of the vastness of space.

It is impossible for the human mind to fully grasp even the true distance to the nearest star system from our own, Alpha Centauri.

I'm not sure that it is humanly possible to fully grasp the distance to Pluto.

I challenge you to have a try. Click on the link below, find the scroll function and start scrolling right.

Don't give up until you get to Pluto.

https://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pi ... ystem.html

Did you click on the link I gave you, and did you scroll all the way to Pluto?

Good. Now do the same thing all over 8,000 times, and you have begun to sort of grasp the distance to Alpha Centauri.

You have begun to sort of grasp it. Remember that in that link, the size of the Moon is one pixel. So to fully grasp the distance to Alpha Centauri, you have to multiply the 8,000 scrollings to Pluto with the factor it would take to cover the true size of the disk of the Moon with dots the size of one pixel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_del_Sarto wrote:

Andrea's Head of Saint John the Baptist, c. 1523

---

<<Andrea del Sarto (16 July 1486 – 29 September 1530) was an Italian painter from Florence known as an outstanding fresco decorator, painter of altar-pieces, portraitist, draughtsman and colorist. Though highly regarded during his lifetime as an artist senza errori ("without errors"), his renown was eclipsed after his death by that of his contemporaries, Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo and Raphael.

Andrea married Lucrezia (del Fede), widow of a hatter named Carlo, of Recanati, on 26 December 1512. Lucrezia appears in many of his paintings, often as a Madonna. However, Vasari describes her as "faithless, jealous, and vixenish with the apprentices." She is similarly characterized in Robert Browning's poem.

Andrea died in Florence at age 44 during an outbreak of Bubonic Plague at the end of September 1530. He was buried unceremoniously by the Misericordia in the church of the Servites. In Lives of the Artists, Vasari claimed Andrea received no attention at all from his wife during his terminal illness. However, it was well known at the time that plague was highly contagious, so it has been speculated that Lucrezia was simply afraid to contract the virulent and frequently-fatal disease. If true, this well-founded caution was rewarded, as she survived her husband by 40 years.>>

TommyJ wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
It looks like we are in for the most active phase in the development of space technologies in the near future. Which will lead to new solutions to the problem you described

TommyJ wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm
Now the development of space companies is very powerful. Have you seen how many topics about new manufacturers of launch vehicles, satellites, etc. on the NASA forums?

It looks like we are in for the most active phase in the development of space technologies in the near future. Which will lead to new solutions to the problem you described.

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:46 pm

TommyJ wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:28 am Yes, I agree. There is no reason for this. Moreover, in principle, I see no reason to want to go even to a neighboring planet. Although this is already in the plans of one madman.
Are we doing well on this planet? Everyone is so provided with everyone that we will have nowhere to live? I do not think so. I think in the current period of space companies and research, only those that are important are those that will help us deliver communication methods to those areas where they do not exist. Those that will help us track climate change here and provide ways to influence it for the better. And so on. I think it's too early to even start dreaming about interstellar travel. Not like discussing them seriously

While there is no good reason to send manned missions to neighboring planets, I understand why people are interested in doing so, purely for exploration's sake. And it's not a big deal. It's generally practical to make such trips. We can afford them, in terms of time and in terms of cost.

But going to another star? That's just nonsense. It would require the resources of the world. And what about the ethics of sending children yet unborn on a trip with little chance of success? Not going to happen.

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:46 pm
<<While there is no good reason to send manned missions to neighboring planets, I understand why people are interested in doing so, purely for exploration's sake. And it's not a big deal. It's generally practical to make such trips. We can afford them, in terms of time and in terms of cost.

But going to another star? That's just nonsense. It would require the resources of the world. And what about the ethics of sending children yet unborn on a trip with little chance of success? Not going to happen.>>

TommyJ wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:28 am Yes, I agree. There is no reason for this. Moreover, in principle, I see no reason to want to go even to a neighboring planet. Although this is already in the plans of one madman.
Are we doing well on this planet? Everyone is so provided with everyone that we will have nowhere to live? I do not think so. I think in the current period of space companies and research, only those that are important are those that will help us deliver communication methods to those areas where they do not exist. Those that will help us track climate change here and provide ways to influence it for the better. And so on. I think it's too early to even start dreaming about interstellar travel. Not like discussing them seriously

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:26 pm

TommyJ wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:28 am

BDanielMayfield wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:31 am

I doubt. Pardon me, but isn't this pessimism toward interstellar travel by humans biased on a supposition that human frailties will remain such as they are for the indefinite future? What if humanity is somehow able to overcome its existential threats as well as the aging problem that so limit our lifespans? Just a more hopeful take ..., offered as food for thought.



Vast interstellar distance has provided a natural cage. But we are still infants who haven't yet learned how to crawl out of our crib.

At the moment, I see the most probable two scenarios for overcoming interstellar distances.
First: an interstellar ship, organized as a place to live. That is, sending a "set of people" to the mission, who will live for several generations, pass on their knowledge and mission, and completely new people will arrive at the final point.
Second: Development of cryogenic technologies to a level where we can freeze specially trained people for a long time without risking their health.

But an increase in life expectancy to several centuries - millennia seems less likely to me. Although, in ancient times, 35-year-olds were already considered elders. And many did not manage to live up to this age.

This ignores the "why?" of it. I don't see humans wanting to do something like this. And I don't see our species being around long enough to reach the point where we have that interest.

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:26 pm

TommyJ wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:28 am
At the moment, I see the most probable two scenarios for overcoming interstellar distances.

First: an interstellar ship, organized as a place to live. That is, sending a "set of people" to the mission, who will live for several generations, pass on their knowledge and mission, and completely new people will arrive at the final point.
Second: Development of cryogenic technologies to a level where we can freeze specially trained people for a long time without risking their health.

But an increase in life expectancy to several centuries - millennia seems less likely to me. Although, in ancient times, 35-year-olds were already considered elders. And many did not manage to live up to this age.

This ignores the "why?" of it. I don't see humans wanting to do something like this. And I don't see our species being around long enough to reach the point where we have that interest.

• Proxima Centauri is to the moon
  as the moon is to 3.68 meters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_Duplantis wrote:
<<Armand "Mondo (Italian for world)" Duplantis (born 10 November 1999) is an American-born Swedish pole vaulter and the current world record holder with a height of 6.18 metres. Armand Duplantis first tried pole vaulting as a three-year-old at the family's home in Lafayette, Louisiana, and took to the event rapidly; he set his first age group world best at age 7, and his jump of 3.86 m as a ten-year-old surpassed the previous world bests for ages 11 and 12 as well.>>

TommyJ wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:28 am

BDanielMayfield wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:31 am

neufer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:38 pm
No doubt.

I doubt. Pardon me, but isn't this pessimism toward interstellar travel by humans biased on a supposition that human frailties will remain such as they are for the indefinite future? What if humanity is somehow able to overcome its existential threats as well as the aging problem that so limit our lifespans? Just a more hopeful take ..., offered as food for thought.

Nevertheless, seven decades of xenophobic rally broadcasts from 1936 to 2016 are now out there among the stars.

I wouldn't be surprised if ET is already trying to figure out some way to put up a big beautiful wall or cage to keep us all in.

Vast interstellar distance has provided a natural cage. But we are still infants who haven't yet learned how to crawl out of our crib.

At the moment, I see the most probable two scenarios for overcoming interstellar distances.
First: an interstellar ship, organized as a place to live. That is, sending a "set of people" to the mission, who will live for several generations, pass on their knowledge and mission, and completely new people will arrive at the final point.
Second: Development of cryogenic technologies to a level where we can freeze specially trained people for a long time without risking their health.

But an increase in life expectancy to several centuries - millennia seems less likely to me. Although, in ancient times, 35-year-olds were already considered elders. And many did not manage to live up to this age.